Found a great article on the atomic bomb dropping during WWII.

[keird]

theflyingpig lives the age-old martial mantra, "Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter accusations."

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

You didn't fix anything, you ignored my suggestion to you, and instead altered my comment with your useless garbage. Once again, continue to wallow in your ignorance. I've tried and tried in many threads to educate you, but you continue to assert that you know what you're talking about, when you don't.

Awww, wittle piggy is upset. Don't like to be corrected in public? Just go ahead and keep flinging petty insults, it really shows a lack of class.

 

[bfdd]

Meh, so a lot of US and Japanese soldiers would have died if not for the bombs. So what? Thats what they are there for. Civilians are not there to be killed like cattle, hence the rules of war. Those that break them are committing terrorism, and thats exactly what the bombings were.

Civilians enable war, we are no less responsible than anyone else in a conflict.

 

[theflyingpig]

Awww, wittle piggy is upset. Don't like to be corrected in public? Just go ahead and keep flinging petty insults, it really shows a lack of class.

Actually I have been trying to educate you, and everyone who recognizes your failure has been laughing at you this entire time. It's comical to see someone who is so obviously wrong, think they are right. Everyone knows this.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...I've tried and tried in many threads to educate you, but you continue to assert that you know what you're talking about, when you don't.

It sounds to me as though he's learned all you have to teach.

 

[theflyingpig]

It sounds to me as though he's learned all you have to teach.

Sounds to me like you're wrong. Now why don't you take your ignorance back to OT, there's serious discussion going on here.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Sounds to me like you're wrong. Now why don't you take your ignorance back to OT, there's serious discussion going on here.

Such rapier wit! Such cutting repartee!

You are right about the serious discussion; are you planning to contribute anything to it, or will you continue to fling pig dung at the participants?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Sounds to me like you're wrong. Now why don't you take your ignorance back to OT, there's serious discussion going on here.

Serious discussion? By you? I haven't seen any. Just a lot of insults being thrown around, since you are either unable or unwillling to do anything else.

As to you lack of knowledge, I will give you a quote:

You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics. - General Dwight D. Eisenhower

You may have heard of that guy. He has just a little more experience then you, given that he achieved 5-star rank and commanded the Allied armies in the ETO.

Oh, you would like another quote? Sure, no problem.

Logistics...as vital to military success as daily food is to daily work. - Captain A.T. Mahan, Armaments and Arbitration, 1912

You may not have heard of him....read your history books about the influence of Alfred Mahan on Naval strategy.

Here's one last one for good measure:

Throughout the struggle, it was in his logistic inability to maintain his armies in the field that the enemy's fatal weakness lay. Courage his forces had in full measure, but courage was not enough. Reinforcements failed to arrive, weapons, ammunition and food alike ran short, and the dearth of fuel caused their powers of tactical mobility to dwindle to the vanishing point. In the last stages of the campaign they could do little more than wait for the Allied advance to sweep over them. - Dwight D. Eisenhower

So do you have anything non-insulting to contribute?

 

[bfdd]

Civilians enable war, we are no less responsible than anyone else in a conflict.

again ^ there needs no more justification. war is an ugly thing, trying to disguise it with "rules" is just absolutely retarded. if another world war broke out you can bet your ass they'd get thrown to the curb.

 

[theflyingpig]

Serious discussion? By you? I haven't seen any. Just a lot of insults being thrown around, since you are either unable or unwillling to do anything else.

As to you lack of knowledge, I will give you a quote:



You may have heard of that guy. He has just a little more experience then you, given that he achieved 5-star rank and commanded the Allied armies in the ETO.

Oh, you would like another quote? Sure, no problem.



You may not have heard of him....read your history books about the influence of Alfred Mahan on Naval strategy.

Here's one last one for good measure:



So do you have anything non-insulting to contribute?

All that quoting and you still fail to see your error. It seems for all your reading, you have yet to learn anything. Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll understand your failure in time.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

All that quoting and you still fail to see your error. It seems for all your reading, you have yet to learn anything. Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll understand your failure in time.

Poor little piggy, you keep insulting everyone, yet you never say anything of value.

And everyone else has learned a lot. We have all learned that you are a troll, that you are wrong about your quote, and you can't argue a point with anything resembling logic or reason. We have also learned that all you do is throw out petty insults to anyone that disagrees with you.

So we have learned a lot already. The question is, have you learned anything yet to debate your discredited comment? Or will you continue the same pattern of insults. The World Wonders.

 

[iGas]

I think it is sad that may Japanese had to die during WWII. But it is the direct result of their ignorance/blindly followed their evil leaders that colonized and murdered 10 of millions of people world wide.

 

[theflyingpig]

Poor little piggy, you keep insulting everyone, yet you never say anything of value.

And everyone else has learned a lot. We have all learned that you are a troll, that you are wrong about your quote, and you can't argue a point with anything resembling logic or reason. We have also learned that all you do is throw out petty insults to anyone that disagrees with you.

So we have learned a lot already. The question is, have you learned anything yet to debate your discredited comment? Or will you continue the same pattern of insults. The World Wonders.

Oh. Well in that case, I admit my failure. Sorry, GarfieldtheCat. It seems that it was I who was the fool. Everyone knows this.

 

[Craig234]

I think it is sad that may Japanese had to die during WWII. But it is the direct result of their ignorance/blindly followed their evil leaders that colonized and murdered 10 of millions of people world wide.

It had a lot to do IMO with out lacking a system of international politics better than 'it's worth war to try to gain economic advantage' competition between nations.

I'm not going to compare the cultures or wrongs of the US and Japan here. But I am going to note there is a similarity to note.

You mention the 'blind following' of the Japanese people, and you have a point.

But what about the 'blind following' of the US people to kill two million in the Vietnam war?

It was a war filled with no better reasons - for a misguided view that Vietnam was a puppet of China when it was their enemy, triggered by false reports of North Vietnam attacking our military in international waters (who were reportedly actually escorting US-trained terrorists into North Vietnam), and the PR was all about 'this war is to defend freedom and liberty in the world', and the indications are LBJ approved the war to appease Republicans, who wanted it for their own bad reason, for politics on his Great Society.

Two million people killed for garbage. But why is it so clear the Japanese 'blindly followed their leaders to bad war' and our people didn't, is the common opinion?

It goes to show how people are often more blind to what their country does wrong. Even though again, this is not a comparison or contest for who did 'more wrong', not the point.

It's just noting the different standards for people for their own country.

 

[Mursilis]

You mention the 'blind following' of the Japanese people, and you have a point.

But what about the 'blind following' of the US people to kill two million in the Vietnam war?

Um, I was really, really young back then, but I seem to remember that war not being all that popular. I think there were marches and stuff . . . any of this ringing a bell with anyone?!?!

 

[Craig234]

Um, I was really, really young back then, but I seem to remember that war not being all that popular. I think there were marches and stuff . . . any of this ringing a bell with anyone?!?!

After years, the war was increasingly unpopular, but not when we entered it nor for the many years of 'involvement' back to when we paid up to 90% of *France's* war costs.

There was no real opposition to going in and splitting the country in half in the first place that laid the goundwork for the war, instead of addressing the colonialism issues.

I'm talking about that. I'd guess that many Japanese people weren't big fans of WWII a few years down the road, either.

 

[EagleKeeper]

After years, the war was increasingly unpopular, but not when we entered it nor for the many years of 'involvement' back to when we paid up to 90% of *France's* war costs.

There was no real opposition to going in and splitting the country in half in the first place that laid the goundwork for the war, instead of addressing the colonialism issues.

I'm talking about that. I'd guess that many Japanese people weren't big fans of WWII a few years down the road, either.

We had just come out of the Korean conflict and seen what the aims of the Soviets had on Europe. At the time, half a loaf of freedom was considered to be better than a whole loaf under the communist doctrine.

Soviets, not China were the NV supporters; China was still concerned about Korea

 

[K1052]

I'm talking about that. I'd guess that many Japanese people weren't big fans of WWII a few years down the road, either.

Probably not until 1944, the war had gone splendidly from the Japanese public's perspective since 1931. The difference being that the the domestic populace was unable and unwilling the change the course of the nation through popular protest.

 

[Exterous]

Probably not until 1944, the war had gone splendidly from the Japanese public's perspective since 1931. The difference being that the the domestic populace was unable and unwilling the change the course of the nation through popular protest.

And even then there were still many diehards that wanted to continue the fight with the US till death. There was an attempted coup on August 15th - before the Emperor annouced the surrender

*Edit* I see this was already mentioned

While unfortunate that it came to this - why the outrage over the use of Nuclear Weapons? I don't get it. Durring WWII is was common to carpet bomb city after city whether it was in Germany, Britain or Japan. Also - the casulaty numbers are just thrown around with no context. Sure 70,000 sounds like a huge number by todays standards but that number of civilians is most likely less than the number of civilians that died during the invasion of Okinawa. If we figure that 1/5 of the civilian population died on Okinawa I think its safe to assume the invasion of Japan would have killed more civilians than the total deaths caused by the two bombs

 

[nobodyknows]

Japan was given an ultimatum and told they would face massive destruction. They basically replied with "bring it". There were also another 25 firebombing missions planned that would have killed more people also in horrific fashion. Unfortunately the modern liberal mind is programmed to make America wrong about everything - including winning wars it didn't start.

Whereas the modern conservative is programned to start wars they can't win?

My old man was preparing for his 3rd tour of duty in WW2, which would have been the invasion of Japan. He was overjoyed we dropped the bombs.

 

[Atreus21]

Whereas the modern conservative is programned to start wars can't win?

My old man was preparing for his 3rd tour of duty in WW2, which would have been the invasion of Japan. He was overjoyed we dropped the bombs.

Your father was on the ground in WW2?

 

[nobodyknows]

Your father was on the ground in WW2?

Yep. He was part of the invasion froce of Guadacanal and to this day he still hates rice and Japs. He's relented a little on the Japs in his old age though. He'll be 90 in June.

 

[lupi]

From what I have read that is likely propaganda.

Then you may want to read more than your morning cereal box before starting this type of discussion.

And just to further demonstrate your lack of knowledge:




The price paid for Okinawa was dear. The final toll of American casualties was the highest experienced in any campaign against the Japanese. Total American battle casualties were 49,151, of which 12,520 were killed or missing and 36,631 wounded. Army losses were 4,582 killed, 93 missing, and 18,ogg wounded; Marine losses, including those of the Tactical Air Force, were 2,938 killed and missing and 13,708 wounded; Navy casualties totaled 4,907 killed and missing and 4,824 wounded. Nonbattle casualties during the campaign amounted to 15,613 for the Army and 10,598 for the Marines. The losses in ships were 36 sunk and 368 damaged, most of them as a result of air action. Losses in the air were 763 planes from 1 April to 1 July. The high cost of the victory was due to the fact that the battle had been fought against a capably led Japanese army of greater strength than anticipated, over difficult terrain heavily and expertly fortified, and thousands of miles from home. The campaign had lasted considerably longer than was expected. But Americans had demonstrated again on Okinawa that they could, ultimately, wrest from the Japanese whatever ground they wanted.

The cost of the battle to the Japanese was even higher than to the Americans. Approximately 110,000 of the enemy lost their lives.

 

[RbSX]

During war we showed pictures of Japanese civilians on fire, children even and said this is the only way. Yes burning innocent people alive is the only way. We were lead to believe that even Japanese child were evil incarnate and had to burned alive.

Have you ever read anything about the Rape of Nanking?

You should be happy they were only lit on fire. If I were there I probably would have lit them on fire and pissed on them to put it out.

The atrocities that the Japanese committed during WW2 were only rivaled by the Germans in their brutality and gruesomeness.

Not only was it justifiable, but it many Americans would have died if they had to invade Japan, it was a practical tactical decision.

Note: I am not American, I'm just a person that has done a hell of a lot of reading, watching, and learning about WW2.

 

[RbSX]

Meh, so a lot of US and Japanese soldiers would have died if not for the bombs. So what? Thats what they are there for. Civilians are not there to be killed like cattle, hence the rules of war. Those that break them are committing terrorism, and thats exactly what the bombings were.

Tell that to all the civvies the Japs raped.