nice
no, actually, i do know of people that run 6800GTs on their Dell machines with 250W and/or 300W line of FSP. it hasn't blown up yet
Look. The mere fact Fortrons/Sparkles can't even beat OCZ and Antec in VOLTAGE REGULATION means they are NOT WORKHORSE PSUs. Stop friggn making them seem like super powerful PSUs. How do you think they are so cheap? You get what you pay for. Now shut it. There are tons of other better PSUs, so if you're recommending Fortron, you better be recommending OCZ and Antec and Seasonic and Enermax and PC P&C at the same time.
How many of you have personally observed the production facilities of these PSUs?
--- How many of you know who makes all of the PSUs you're talking about?
How many of you know what components (where they're sourced from, what their specifications are, what they're known for if anything) are generally found in each model of each relevant make of PSU?
--- How many of you could identify all or even most of the components in a PSU?
How many of you have large-scale (meaning 1k+ samples of each model from different times/batches and resellers at a minimum-- frankly, I'd settle for 100+ if the data was obtained for each and every model, though you'd be hard pressed to make categorical statements based on that data given how close many of these are) reliability data for all of the brands (or their ODMs), obtained from a reliable source (aggregating all the forum threads you can find doesn't count, due to that we're all slaves to confirmation bias)
--- How many of you have reliability data for even half of the brands or their ODMs?
How many of you have accurate testing data (obtained with a reliable, properly calibrated oscilloscope; doesn't need to be a high-end one given the noise levels we're talking about here) for at least four or five samples (obtained from different batches) of each modern model of each make of PSU being discussed here?
--- How many of you have accurate testing data for even a couple samples of a third of the models being discussed here?
------ How many of you have accurate testing data for, I don't know, one or two different power supplies?
--------- How many of you know what data you'd be looking for or how to obtain it?
How many of you have just urinated on the gravestone of critical thinking?
In response to this thread and this thread's topic alone: all makers have some duds. One thread on OCforums does not provide an accurate overview of how many duds a manufacturer has. This is obvious to most or all of us, which is why the topic soon turned into "what PSU makes and forumgoers do you dislike?"
--- How many of you know who makes all of the PSUs you're talking about?
How many of you know what components (where they're sourced from, what their specifications are, what they're known for if anything) are generally found in each model of each relevant make of PSU?
--- How many of you could identify all or even most of the components in a PSU?
How many of you have large-scale (meaning 1k+ samples of each model from different times/batches and resellers at a minimum-- frankly, I'd settle for 100+ if the data was obtained for each and every model, though you'd be hard pressed to make categorical statements based on that data given how close many of these are) reliability data for all of the brands (or their ODMs), obtained from a reliable source (aggregating all the forum threads you can find doesn't count, due to that we're all slaves to confirmation bias)
--- How many of you have reliability data for even half of the brands or their ODMs?
How many of you have accurate testing data (obtained with a reliable, properly calibrated oscilloscope; doesn't need to be a high-end one given the noise levels we're talking about here) for at least four or five samples (obtained from different batches) of each modern model of each make of PSU being discussed here?
--- How many of you have accurate testing data for even a couple samples of a third of the models being discussed here?
------ How many of you have accurate testing data for, I don't know, one or two different power supplies?
--------- How many of you know what data you'd be looking for or how to obtain it?
How many of you have just urinated on the gravestone of critical thinking?
In response to this thread and this thread's topic alone: all makers have some duds. One thread on OCforums does not provide an accurate overview of how many duds a manufacturer has. This is obvious to most or all of us, which is why the topic soon turned into "what PSU makes and forumgoers do you dislike?"
How many have you?
and how many threads or reviews have you seen?
Before you "urinate" on everyone "forumgoers", show us your data on "every products" has a "dud"
You wasted my time reading a whole page of nothing. thanks
and how many threads or reviews have you seen?
Before you "urinate" on everyone "forumgoers", show us your data on "every products" has a "dud"
You wasted my time reading a whole page of nothing. thanks
I was hoping for some sort of rebuttal, some flame, or maybe even someone saying "well, I've got so-and-so data, so I'm plenty qualified to say this". But no, I get this.
If you're actually asking for confirmation that every maker has its duds, good lord. There is at least one report out there for every single maker. You don't need to be especially perceptive to see that, yes, there ARE at least a couple duds for every single model. Forum threads are adequate proof of this. They do not say how many there are, only that the number is greater than zero.
Now.. please tell me you're actually asking for something else, and English just isn't your first language.
When did I say one make was better than another, or try to advocate some position? Never, because I don't actually have the amount of data I'd need to safely make categorical statements about quality. You don't need to have all the data you'd require to answer a question to RECOGNIZE how much data you'd need. Put another way: you don't need to know how life started on Earth to say you're not sure everyone talking about it actually has enough data on hand to say for sure.
Surely you're joking.
If you're actually asking for confirmation that every maker has its duds, good lord. There is at least one report out there for every single maker. You don't need to be especially perceptive to see that, yes, there ARE at least a couple duds for every single model. Forum threads are adequate proof of this. They do not say how many there are, only that the number is greater than zero.
Now.. please tell me you're actually asking for something else, and English just isn't your first language.
You may be stretching the definition of "reading".
Oh man, another mr. "DUD"
you have no proof (every product has dud) do you?
My english...? just what does that mean or proves?
and if someone's english is not as good as yours does that make you a better person?
maybe It is my 2nd language, and so?
I can speak your language, but can you speak mine?
be shoe ur be tarbiat.
you have no proof (every product has dud) do you?
My english...? just what does that mean or proves?
and if someone's english is not as good as yours does that make you a better person?
maybe It is my 2nd language, and so?
I can speak your language, but can you speak mine?
be shoe ur be tarbiat.
I already gave proof. Sorry to be blunt, but you did not see it because your grasp of the language that we are speaking is not good enough for you to properly understand me (see below). I will give my proof again:
"There is at least one report out there for every single maker. You don't need to be especially perceptive to see that, yes, there ARE at least a couple duds for every single model. Forum threads are adequate proof of this. They do not say how many there are, only that the number is greater than zero."
Of course it doesn't make me a better person. FWIW, I'm sure your English is a good deal better than my second language, and certainly better than my grasp of your native language. I was only asking because there was obviously some kind of communications breakdown going on.
I do have a question on that note, though. If your grasp of your second language is not good enough to understand someone else in an argument, why are you arguing in it? Clearly we are unable to fully understand each other, so what's the point?
You fool no one here. I read your sentences perfectly and you just made no sense and STILL NO PROOF. I asked show us the data but you don?t have it, and expect me to believe what you say as concrete evidence. bull.
And do you think your sentence makes sense or qualifies it as a good grammar: "They do not say how many there are, only that the number is greater than zero."
Lets just analyze that sentence and see if it is poor or excellent English.
If you don?t understand why the sentence is poor English then maybe you should refrain yourself from criticizing another's English.
Hell, I shouldnt even bother replying to all the bulls.
I just GAVE you the data. Every manufacturer has made, at some point, one or two duds because there are at least one or two reports of duds for every manufacturer. This is as obvious as obvious gets. If you are still having trouble with it, either you don't understand what I'm saying or you don't have a forebrain. Neither of those is my fault.
It seems likely that the issue here is that you don't understand what I mean by "every manufacturer has had some duds". Maybe I could clarify for you: what I mean is that occasionally, these manufacturers DO accidentally produce and sell a defective power supply. Every power supply manufacturer has had complaints against it, because there's always someone who got a dead unit by accident. It just happens that for every few hundred (or few thousand, or just few) individual PSUs a manufacturer makes, odds are there's another that's defective. The amount of defective units sold per 100,000 units sold can be minimized with high-end components and good quality control, but it is not zero for any manufacturer.
That's as clear as I can make it. I'm not sure I'm getting through, here.. I'd really appreciate it if someone else could chip in.
Touchy, aren't we? That sentence is indeed grammatically incorrect, because "the number" it references is not specified or explained, and probably because there are double pronouns in the first part (another specification issue). I doubt you could have told me that, but your point is true even if you don't understand why.
And guess what? There are plenty of problems with your grammar there, even though it's better than usual in that excerpt. However, I don't care. Why not? See, most of the sentences in this entire thread (mine included, of course) are grammatically incorrect or at least borderline in some fashion. Nobody objects because we can still understand what these grammatically incorrect posts say. Your posts, on the other hand, are poorly written enough as so to be genuinely incomprehensible in some places ("be shoe ur be tarbiat."). This is a problem, as is the fact that you are all worked up about something that you apparently do not understand.
No, you shouldn't. In fact, you shouldn't bother with this thread at all. It's definitely not worth your time.
You do get what you pay for but that doesn?t mean you're getting a better PSU. OCZ and Enermax are for all practical purposes nothing more then marketing companies. They buy there PSU's from other manufactures and market them to the consumer. Those extra steps inherently make the PSU more expensive, not necessarily better.
Forton on the other hand designs and builds their own PSUs and sells them directly in huge quantities so they are able to offer a better deal then Antec or Enermax ever could. You also have to understand Forton makes a huge number of PSUs, by that reason alone there are bound to be some failures, more PSUs is going to = more failures. Having said that Forton is still one of the most reliable and solidly built PSUs you can buy. Many large PC OEM's use them, Zalman, Nexus, Aopen, and InWin all use them for their own PSUs. I?ve probably used 20+ Fortons or Sparkles personally over the past 3-4 years and have had 0 go bad.
Regarding OCZ; they are built by Topwer, a budget manufacture. They tend to use cheaper parts and have pretty questionable quality. Though OCZ dose represent the best of their designs they are far from Seasonic or PCP&C.
Ricemarine
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2004
- 10,507
- 0
- 0
Wrong. Nothing is wrong w/ "double pronouns". What is wrong w/ that sentence is redundancy and poor logic.
1)The first part of your sentence already stated the 2nd part=redundant=poor grammar
2) the first part of the sentence already states a "quantity" , and the 2nd part "greater than zero" the reader already knew that (in the first part)=poor logic.
I started this thread, did you not see that when you read the "title"?
Oh man, you are funny.
Antec and Enermax used to be and I think still are made by Channel Well. They are one of the better ones out there.
Operandi,
This person comes here and starts making fun of my "english" and got me all worked up. didnt mean to hijack the thread, sorry about that
This person comes here and starts making fun of my "english" and got me all worked up. didnt mean to hijack the thread, sorry about that
Can we get back on topic now? What was your objection to my statement that every manufacturer makes a few duds now and then?
Perhaps you would not get "all worked up" as often in the future if you were not quite as argumentative and defensive, or maybe if you did not take the misinterpreted words of anonymous forumgoers as dire insults.
Now then, I'll repeat what I said at the top: can we get back on topic now? What was your objection to my statement that every manufacturer makes a few duds now and then?
I'm not making fun of your English. I have explicitly stated that I am not making fun of your English several times. I have said that your grasp of English is not adequate for arguments, and that this presents a communication barrier (more or less in those words, at that), but not once have I made fun of it. Your failure to recognize this can only mean that you do not have an adequate grasp of the English language and/or that you are overly sensitive. There are other possibilities, but they are much more insulting.
Perhaps you would not get "all worked up" as often in the future if you were not quite as argumentative and defensive, or maybe if you did not take the misinterpreted words of anonymous forumgoers as dire insults.
This thread is not a grammar discussion. If you actually want to argue this point, just PM me and I will explain exactly how you are wrong, because I'm nice enough to take time out of my day to explain intermediate English grammar to random belligerents such as yourself.
Now then, I'll repeat what I said at the top: can we get back on topic now? What was your objection to my statement that every manufacturer makes a few duds now and then?
I have yet to deal with a PSU blowing up in my face or anything or Caps bursting, and so I guess my real concern is:
1) rail stability
2) voltage regulation
3) noise
so those are the 3 things I judge on. So far Seasonic Antec and PC P&C have proven to me that they offer awesome voltage regulation and same with efficiency.... Fortron seems to be the loudest one and it's not as good at voltage regulation when you stack the Bluestorm against the Modstream (a bit cheap), TP 2.0, S12 series, Noisetaker....
So yea. I like the fact that Fortron does make their own PSUs, and while Antec and OCZ resell, the PSUs they resell are still quite decent.
That said, I measured my friend's Ultra-X Connect or whatever 500W PSU and it gave me 12.64 volts.... Pathetic.
1) rail stability
2) voltage regulation
3) noise
so those are the 3 things I judge on. So far Seasonic Antec and PC P&C have proven to me that they offer awesome voltage regulation and same with efficiency.... Fortron seems to be the loudest one and it's not as good at voltage regulation when you stack the Bluestorm against the Modstream (a bit cheap), TP 2.0, S12 series, Noisetaker....
So yea. I like the fact that Fortron does make their own PSUs, and while Antec and OCZ resell, the PSUs they resell are still quite decent.
That said, I measured my friend's Ultra-X Connect or whatever 500W PSU and it gave me 12.64 volts.... Pathetic.
How do you know that Seasonic, Antec, and PCP&C have awesome voltage regulation and efficiency, or that they are better than Fortron in those areas? Also, how do you know their rails are stable and supply clean power? I'm not disagreeing with your point (and my personal computer doesn't have an FSP unit in it, so don't worry about that), I'm just asking what evidence you have for it. How many PSUs have you benchmarked, and what did you benchmark them with? What specific measurements did you take?
But everyone needs to see that at least once
Find a Powmax somewhere so you can enjoy the beautiful fireworks display (read: a few sparks, a little smoke).Personally, I don't benchmark anything except the things I've come to encounter.
Those PSUs are: Antec Smart Power, Antec TruePower 2.0, Seasonic S12.
So far those results are in line with the reviews I read. I use a multimeter btw, not software. I haven't done any specific load/idle tests or anything because all the PSUs are different wattages.
My basis is really on review sites like Silent PC Review or other hardware sites when they test PSUs against others and compare the voltage regulation. I've read several Antec TruePower 2.0 reviews already, and the voltage fluctuation is always under 1%. Quite impressive I think.
SPCR's slightly more qualitative analysis does show the rankings in voltage regulation (worst to best) to be Fortron [Bluestorm], OCZ [Modstream or was it Powerstream....], Enermax [Noisetaker], Seasonic [S12], Antec [TP2.0]... Do they review PC P&C?? I don't remember, but in any case PC P&C scores incredibly well in the reviews I read ... under 1% like Antecs. Probably even better.
Rail stability? I check how much amps each rail can supply and then of course what happens when you overload the PSU. Crap PSUs will die when you even come close to their rated spec, but most of these good PSUs can hit their rated spec at least if not go beyond a bit.
I mean if I find out PC P&Cs, Antecs or even my Seasonic has a history of mass failures, then I obviously won't buy it, but I kinda assume most PSUs at this level are decent enough that they don't blow up in everyone's face. Thus, my primary concerns are just voltage regulation, noise and stability.
Works for me. SPCR's testing methods are fine (AFAIK, I'm not an EE), and their results show exactly what you're saying.
This does bring up a different (somewhat off-topic) question, though. As you said, all of these are fairly reputable units and are unlikely to blow up in the user's face. All of the tests you reference, as well as all but one or two of the ones I've seen, say that these PSUs operate well within ATX spec on everything. Doesn't that make voltage regulation somewhat less of an issue? Stable is stable, no? I'd think that once you get above that threshold of quality, the only really important things would be (acoustic) noise and power output (the latter maybe less so than the former for many of us, given the A64's efficiency). Is there something I'm missing here?
This does bring up a different (somewhat off-topic) question, though. As you said, all of these are fairly reputable units and are unlikely to blow up in the user's face. All of the tests you reference, as well as all but one or two of the ones I've seen, say that these PSUs operate well within ATX spec on everything. Doesn't that make voltage regulation somewhat less of an issue? Stable is stable, no? I'd think that once you get above that threshold of quality, the only really important things would be (acoustic) noise and power output (the latter maybe less so than the former for many of us, given the A64's efficiency). Is there something I'm missing here?
I found this website that has reviews on several PUS's.
I don?t know how credible the site is, but is worth reading.
I found excellent review on Enermax (in terms of power and quietness).
Antec 350 sp has great review too. There is no mention of Fortron.
I have read couple of reviews on fortron @ other review sites but unfortunately not so great,
as some believe. It is good psu but not "superior" and "massive power"as has been stated by some members.
PS: I have a BA from one of the best colleges in the country and my English was good enough to
get me thru. Not trying to show off by any means, but just for those who(have ridiculed my understanding of English) wanted to know.
I don?t know how credible the site is, but is worth reading.
I found excellent review on Enermax (in terms of power and quietness).
Antec 350 sp has great review too. There is no mention of Fortron.
I have read couple of reviews on fortron @ other review sites but unfortunately not so great,
as some believe. It is good psu but not "superior" and "massive power"as has been stated by some members.
PS: I have a BA from one of the best colleges in the country and my English was good enough to
get me thru. Not trying to show off by any means, but just for those who(have ridiculed my understanding of English) wanted to know.
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