FORMULA 1

[DABANSHEE]

There's nothing wrong with him - he's one of the top drivers in the world, but as a F1 driver he's only slightly above average.

Actually I s'pose we'll never know unil all F1 drivers drive the same car.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

Crumcake: I didn't get stuck in traffic in Indianapolis, I got stuck in traffic on Interstate 70 near Richmond, Ind. I always use the IndyGo shuttle when I go to the Speedway (which hasn't been much since '95, except for this year's 500 and of course, the F1 GP - I boycott IRL most of the time ... ). Anyhow, the shuttle is the only way to get to the Speedway. You park downtown at either the Zoo, the RCA Dome, or at Illinois & Market St. These are the shuttle pickup points. For $15 roundtrip, they take you to and from the track in about 15-20 min. at most (they have special routes set up for these shuttle busses that totally avoids traffic). I was in my car and on to the Interstate within 30 min. of walking out the gate of the Speedway.

CART vs. F1 : (major differences)

Engine - 3.5 vs. 3.0 L, turbocharged vs. naturally aspirated, 950HP vs. ~800-850HP, both running 17-18K RPMs with major difference being F1's pneumatic valvetrain

Terminal Speed - 255-260MPH at Michigan Oval vs. about 225-230 at Hockenheim

F1 cars are a couple hundred pounds lighter, and have far superior braking as well. Of course, can't forget that CART still uses slicks, F1 has those silly ass grooved tires (which, I might note, was the main reason for Zanardi's disastrous season).

'Scummaker is just that because he is a dirty driver. 1994 he purposely drove Damon Hill off so that he could win the WC. Scummi tried to do it again in '97 against JV, but that time it backfired. 'Scummi is somewhat popular among US F1 fans, mainly because they are either Ferrari fanatics or just want to back a winner. Personally, I like Mika, Fisichella, and the new kid on the block, Jenson Button. Also, a sentimental favorite is Jean Alesi - a hell of a driver who has never had a good car under him.

To 3615Buck : Most definitely I agree, Spa Francorchamps is the most beautiful, as well as the most demanding, road course in the world. Every serious driver, as well as fan, agrees. Eau Rouge is without doubt the most difficult corner in all of racing, worldwide, period! Anybody who can take this corner flat out has some serious "grapefruits" (ie. courage). And this year Mika put a pass on Schumacher at Spa that will go down as one of the great manuevers of the last decade (or more).

LXi: Sorry, but there are a lot of hardcore F1 fans in the US, and we are most definitely knowledgeable about the sport. Even fanatical to a degree ... it's a major hassle just to be able to find a way to watch a race on TV at a decent time, they're usually on at 1 or 2 AM in the morning on my station, but I haven't missed a race since they began broadcasting many, many years ago. I guarantee I can name every driver for at least the last two decades, team owners, engine builders, whatever you might wanna know ... :Q I began following it when Mario went over in '76. Naturally I also follow CART, but that is where I draw the line. No NASCAR "bumper cars" for me!

As for JV, I'd rate him 3rd on the grid, behind only 'Scummi and Mika. Most people in F1 agree, and JV is paid as such - he and Mika are tied for 2nd in salary behind 'Scummi. I'm no major JV fan, but it is obvious he has been in a crap car since '98. I doubt even Senna could have won in a BAR (well, OK, if it was a wet race ... ). JV has been driving very hard this year and could have had a couple podiums if not for the BAR giving out on him. A podium in a BAR would be a major accomplishment, and he was almost there at the US GP. He drove his butt off and provided the best action of the day by far.

To me, the all-time best drivers are:

Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Hill, Jim Clark, Senna, Prost, and I have to throw in Mario because he has won championships in so many different forms of racing. If I had to pick a single driver though, it would be Clark. Too bad he died so young, who knows the record he would have achieved. His legendary drive at Monza was plenty enough to convince me (car trouble put him a lap down, then it got fixed and he not only proceeded to unlap himself, he then went on to lap the rest of the field, only to break down on the last lap. All of this at Monza no less!)

 

[Midnight Rambler]

BTW, anybody can join ClubMR for a low, monthly fee. Just send me a check for $29.95/month and I'll see that you are signed up ... :Q

There are no real member benefits, but hey, it's cool to just be able to tell others that you are a member of such an exclusive club.


PS. - Lupin - you got some nice shots. That mid 60's Lotus is super sweet!!!

 

[lupin]

MR: Club Midnight Rambler??

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm not really into old cars. That's why you don't see too many of them.
For normal cars, there are lots of classic cars that I like.
For F1 cars, it's the opposite.

 

[CrumCake]

I had a buddy tell me about the shuttles from the Hoosier Dome(us indiana folks like to call it by it's first non corperate name). Now nascar has moved the race to Sunday next year, so i doubt i'll get the shuttle experience. There are so many other tracks out there to goto with lots less people there. Best parking spot we ever got was in Darlington SC. Right across from the track. Course we got there at 6:30am in the morning.
My favorite racing series is nascar. Why, i guess it was what i sit and watched with my dad on sunday mornings when waking up late in my school days. Who did'nt like to sleep in on the sundays while they were in school. I've always been a fan of Indy, due to the fact of living in Indiana, so i knew alittle bit about Cart back in them days, but i didnt follow their whole season. After picking up on Nascar, i started to follow other racing sports and going to various events. This year was the first year i got to go to a NHRA event. Good God i never heard a engine sound so loud. The 5000-6000 horsepower those cars create will make your whole body shake when the go by you at over 300mph. I will make damn sure i get to goto more of those events as i possibly can afford.
I'd say F1 fits in about 5 on my favorite racing series, i do have respect for f1, as anything thats goes 240+ mph and has a motor that screams is good in my book!

 

[DABANSHEE]

Hey Midnight, you forgot Brabham in that line-up (the only F1 driver to win a championship in a car of his own manufacturer). Oh Shuey to - one mustn't forget motor-racing is big business, not a sport & as anyone from Japan will tell you business is war by other means & the only rules in war are the rules of the victors. As such F1 is like Rugby League where its ok to break any rule in the book as long as the ref doesnt catch you.

 

[CFster]

Midnight Rambler, a few discrepencies in your CART vs. IRL comparison:

"Engine - 3.5 vs. 3.0 L, turbocharged vs. naturally aspirated, 950HP vs. ~800-850HP, both running 17-18K RPMs with major difference being F1's pneumatic valvetrain"

Actually the CART cars are 2.64 liter turbo V8s. The F1 engines are 3.0L naturally aspirated V10s. The CART Toyota V8 has been running 17K RPM in qualifying and the F1 Mercedes V10 has been turning 19K RPM.

And yes I was there. And yes F1 puts on a great show, but it was not and will never be as competitive racing as CART.

 

[LXi]

<<but it was not and will never be as competitive racing as CART.>>

Really?? From what I heard, the F1 is much much more challenging and competitive than CART, the pressure is heavier and the stakes are a lot higher as well.

This is what I want to know, whats CART's top speed? And what about F1's?

 

[Midnight Rambler]

CFster: Good catch on that CART engine vol. I erroneously used the engine spec. for an IRL engine, not CART. I failed to verify it (didn't know where to find the spec). But I did know where to find the F1 (FIA site) and the 3.0 checked out. Should recognized the 3.5 was for IRL, Olds makes the engine afterall (although it used to be a 4.0L V8, which is the size of the production Olds V-8, whereas the production Olds 3.5L motor is a V-6. So the new IRL 3.5 is actually the old Olds 4.0 Aurora V-8, destroked). I was pretty close on the RPMs, but I think I gave the CART motors about 50HP too much.

Lupin: The pic of the JV spin was your best shot. Nice work. As for old cars vs. new, I am mixed, I like them all I guess, but the 66-67 Lotus was a very special car. Last years before wings, corporate sponsor logos, gobs of HP on skinny radials (that lasted several races). That was when it was as much driver as it was car, and it was a lot more dangerous for both driver and spectator. The car in your photo is a '67 I believe - in 66 they didn't put the Ford or Lotus paint/badges on IIRC.

LXi: For certain the pressure is much higher in F1 because it is more world-wide in visibility, but above all because of the huge amounts of money that corporations pour in to it, and they expect returns. Ferrari, according to their head, spends $300 Million or more per year to field its team. McLaren is probably pretty close, and Jaguar is spending money like crazy, building a new team headquarters, their own wind tunnel, etc.

But CART is more competitive from the driver standpoint, as there are at least 12 or more drivers who could win on any occasion, the cars are so much more equal, as is the talent level (truth be told, I think CART has more talented drivers, number-wise, whereas in F1 there are only about 6-8 really talented drivers). Also, CART is more of a test of overall driving skill - you must do ovals, road courses, and street courses. As for top speeds, I think what I said above is pretty close ... Terminal Speed - 255-260MPH at Michigan Oval (CART) vs. about 225-230 at Hockenheim (F1).

Will be interesting to see from the year 2002 on, as both CART and F1 will be racing at a common course, namely Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in Montreal (Vancouver is losing this race after 2001, when it will move to Montreal). Bet Bernie E. isn't happy about this, he hates CART, and gets really hot when anyone wants to compare CART to F1.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Yeh, I don't know whether its true, but someone told me that the reason Australian F1 race (first Adelaide the later Melbourne) was changed from being the last race of the calender to being the first race of the year, was because he didnt want the Aussie F1 in the same month as the Aussie CART race (Gold Coast).

 

[3615buck]

Midnight rambler, you must be kidding, CART and F1 racing together ???
This might be funny, but the resulmt will mainly depend on the track, CART will win on any oval track because they are faster. F1 will win on any &quot;complex&quot; track such as Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium because the F1 technology is better...

 

[CFster]

Bernie really cracks me up. The arrogance of the guy is unbelievable. He wouldn't even stay in Indianapolis. Word is that he would fly in every day from Chicago or Detroit (one or the other). Did you hear about the Very Very Important Person area behind the garage area? You couldn't even look inside. I was watching an Indianapolis TV reporter trying to get inside. There was FIA officials there (suits, shades and mics in their ears - sort of like secret service) and they wouldn't let anybody in. The even said no to an Indiana state cop! Boy was he pissed. It's like they set up their own little sovereign country or something. I wonder if there was any clashing with the &quot;yellow shirts&quot;.

Anyone see the yellow rope they were using to clear the pit lane and garage area? Two guys on opposite ends just corraling everyone to one end. Talk about the straight forward approach.

The production they put on is amazing though. They bring in their own tv equipment, officials, safety vehicles, pace cars - everything.

 

[lupin]

<< Lupin: The pic of the JV spin was your best shot. >>



Thanks.

I still have a lot to work on, as far as my photography skills.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

3615: Sorry, I did not mean to imply that CART and F1 would race at the same time, but rather that they would be racing on a common circuit in the same year for the first time in a long time. Thus we will get a great comparison of the two series' performance.

CF: Bernie even walked out of the news conference at Indy. But he better shape it up, as F1 needs the U.S. a lot more than the U.S. needs F1. His major sponsors and team backers would have his head if they lose the U.S. again.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Ah, I bet the F1 people will throw an extra chicane in, for the F1 meet, just to discourage any such comparisons.

 

[LXi]

<<Terminal Speed - 255-260MPH at Michigan Oval (CART) vs. about 225-230 at Hockenheim (F1).>>

I want to know their real potential top speeds, not top speeds on the fastest tracks, because those tracks will never be straight/long enough for them to reach their limit. I mean, will the F1 cars also reach 255-260 if they were put on the Michigan Oval? What speed will these two types of car reach if given an infinitely long straight course?

 

[DABANSHEE]

Actually the top speed of both F1 cars &amp; Indy cars, depends on gear ratios, which are changed to suite every track in the season..... Plus they have other gear setups to..... Consequently one car could have 20 different top speeds, all depending on what gearset they are using.

To calculate the top speed its a matter of multiplying (or dividing or whatever) the rev limit (arround 17k) by the ratio of the highest gear.

However at such high speed aerodynamics &amp; weight (friction) cut into the equation even more than normal. Consequently, as F1 cars are lighter &amp; more aerodynamic, they have a greater top speed potential.

But, because of the circuts F1 cars race on, they are geared more for acceleration - even taking into account fast circuts like Hokkenhiem &amp; Monza. Where as CARTS often have higher ratios for those last gears, because they race on high speed banked ovals. Also as F1 cars race from a standing start, they need top performance, all the way from zero knots, consequently, they need more ratios down low, where as CARTs race from a rolling start they can spread there ratios higher up to.

So F1 cars have the potential top speed of more than a CART car, but in reality Indy cars have a higher top speed, as you'll never get a F1 car geared for such speeds.

 

[CFster]

Actually the fact that both cars develop a serious amount of downforce due to wings (even CART cars in speedway trim) and undertrays means that they could never reach their potential top speed. Both cars have the drag coefficient of say a Mack truck you know. That's how they don't go into the wall at Indy when they turn. They say that at 150mph+, if there was a roof they could drive across it! They develop several times their own weight in downforce. I've noticed at CART and F1 races that sometimes you can hear &quot;wind&quot; noise before the cars actually go by - must be a lot of air being displaced. Gives you the impression that they are actually flying around the track. I don't think anyone has the balls to remove the wings from a CART car and go flat out - there's no telling what might happen. Can you say &quot;Mercedes at LeMans last year?&quot;

Midnight Rambler: I believe that Bernie will own Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 5 years. I think that to own the autoracing center of the world is his next logical step. I think in a few years Bernie will say &quot;Hey Tony, the track is ok, but well...for my race series to come back I need to own 51 percent shares of your speedway.&quot; This will probably happen after the current contract runs out. Tony will be in debt for this for a while. I know that the original plans called for a road course to extend into the outside golf course, but they didn't have the time or money to make it happen. I'll bet that if he doesn't do it in the next year or so Bernie will move in and do it himself. Hell, he's the richest man in England you know.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

CF: Tony George has a contract for the US GP through 2009. As for the $50M or so he has spent so far in bringing the F1 circus to town, that's pocket change for the Hulman-George family, they are extremely wealthy.

Bernie will eventually sell his stake in F1 to the owners so they can combat that German media company that bought up like 49% of F1.

 

[LXi]

Very nice explainations here guys, thanks a lot.