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Former NSA Chief Says Surveillance "Limited"

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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Because they are alleged terrorists who also happen to be US persons.

It's the same reason most people are in favor of the right to trial by jury, even for accused kiddie rapists. Not because they are in favor of being nice to kiddie rapists, but because Constitutional rights are an all or nothing thing, they can't just apply to some people.

The problem with the entire debate is that we don't have all the facts. In fact, we have very few. And yet, we have an entire group of people (who, incidentally, claim to be big on rights) which have already tried and convicted Bush and others in his Administration.

Until there's a clear decision, we'll continue to have the FUD soakers running rampant with conspiracy theories and left-wing blog talk, riddled full of "possibly", "maybe", "could be", etc.

Actually, we have all the facts. Bush came out and admitted pretty much what was going on. We don't (and probably never will) have the details, but the main thrust of the program is clear, and all that is really needed from a legal perspective. The "FUD" at this point is really legal analysis, and there is a great deal of good thinking going on on the topic on both sides. People have enough access to information now to make some sort of judgement about this, even if it won't have the nuanced legal points a court will eventually decide upon.

The only real FUD and blog talk seems to be the idiots on both sides who are either attacking the program as spying on all communication of all Americans, or it's defenders, suggesting that opposing the program means certain death for you and your family. But a lot of the commentary is actually very good, people citing laws is a thing to look for...people who are painting doomsday scenarios involving the government or terrorists might be good people to stay away from.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Because they are alleged terrorists who also happen to be US persons.

It's the same reason most people are in favor of the right to trial by jury, even for accused kiddie rapists. Not because they are in favor of being nice to kiddie rapists, but because Constitutional rights are an all or nothing thing, they can't just apply to some people.

The problem with the entire debate is that we don't have all the facts. In fact, we have very few. And yet, we have an entire group of people (who, incidentally, claim to be big on rights) which have already tried and convicted Bush and others in his Administration.

Until there's a clear decision, we'll continue to have the FUD soakers running rampant with conspiracy theories and left-wing blog talk, riddled full of "possibly", "maybe", "could be", etc.

And yet you have already given the administration a free pass to do whatever. Oh, it's "limited" so that makes it all right, eh? So a limited, but illegal spying program is OK in your book because it's "limited?" WTF are you even talking about? The FISA laws couldn't be any clearer. You want to spy on Americans, go get a F'ing warrant. End of discussion.
 
Originally posted by: RainsfordHmm, it appears you are right on that definition, guess I should read farther down the page 😀

I'm bookmarking this for later, I wanted to read the entire court decision before I make any more hasty judgements 😉
I am taken aback to see such reasonableness on AT! You are quite unique!
 
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: CSMR
Originally posted by: HomerJS
ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS GET THE FISA COURT TO RUBBER-STAMP THEIR REQUESTS!!!
UP TO 72 HOURS AFTER THE TAP!!!!!!!!!!!
Why was this not done in that case?

That's the $64,000 question.
Okay, children. A little level setting:

Getting a warrant from the FISA court is a slam dunk ONLY if the application provides reasonable evidence that the collection of "foreign intelligence" is "a primary purpose" of the proposed surveillance.

We have seen that "foreign intelligence" is defined as information to be collected via surveillance directed at an "agent of a foreign power". And showing that someone WITHIN THE U.S. is an "agent of a foreign power" entails providing evidence that the target of the surveillance meets certain criteria. The NSA can't just say (of someone within the U.S.), "he's a foreign agent". To pass muster before the FISA court that the person is an "agent of a foreign power", it must reasonably be shown that the domestic person "knowingly" has done one of several nefarious acts (see the post by CSMR earlier in this thread) in support of a foreign power.

You can't just be suspicious of a some domestic Joe. That "knowingly" criterion is a BIG hurdle.

But the NSA wants to just focus their magic beams against ANYONE who draws their suspicion, not just against the individuals who clearly meet the FISA standards.

If you meet the FISA standards, you'll get the warrant every time. If you don't meet the standards, you won't get the warrant.

So does it now become clear why the NSA isn't making its case in front of the FISA court? They KNOW they can't get a warrant in these "special" cases.
 
Originally posted by: shira
So does it now become clear why the NSA isn't making its case in front of the FISA court? They KNOW they can't get a warrant in these "special" cases.

Are you insinuating that FISA is ill-suited to the threats we face? I'd agree 100%.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
So does it now become clear why the NSA isn't making its case in front of the FISA court? They KNOW they can't get a warrant in these "special" cases.

Are you insinuating that FISA is ill-suited to the threats we face? I'd agree 100%.

Only in real life, Jack Bauer's hunches don't pay off 100%. In fact, most of those taps are probably bogus since they can't go back after the fact and get a FISA warrant. Or if you're a real conspiracy theorist, they're tapping their political enemies. How soon before MoveOn.org is considered a terrorist org?
 
Originally posted by: CSMR
Originally posted by: RainsfordAnd there is the problem, "agent of a foreign power" cannot, under any legal circumstances, be a US person. This is stated fairly explicitly stated in US Code Title 50, § 1801, Section (b) which starts out the definition of an "agent of a foreign power" with the statement "any person other than a US person". In other words, the president's power for warrentless searches seems to only apply to non-US persons. John Schmidt's argument doesn't hold up.
Well I looked up this section and you had only read one subsection, the one which does not apply for the reason you give.

US Code Title 50, § 1801

(b) ?Agent of a foreign power? means?
(1) any person other than a United States person, who?
(A) acts in the United States as an officer or employee of a foreign power, or as a member of a foreign power as defined in subsection (a)(4) of this section;
(B) acts for or on behalf of a foreign power which engages in clandestine intelligence activities in the United States contrary to the interests of the United States, when the circumstances of such person?s presence in the United States indicate that such person may engage in such activities in the United States, or when such person knowingly aids or abets any person in the conduct of such activities or knowingly conspires with any person to engage in such activities; or
(2) any person who?
(A) knowingly engages in clandestine intelligence gathering activities for or on behalf of a foreign power, which activities involve or may involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States;
(B) pursuant to the direction of an intelligence service or network of a foreign power, knowingly engages in any other clandestine intelligence activities for or on behalf of such foreign power, which activities involve or are about to involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States;
(C) knowingly engages in sabotage or international terrorism, or activities that are in preparation therefor, for or on behalf of a foreign power;
(D) knowingly enters the United States under a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power or, while in the United States, knowingly assumes a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power; or
(E) knowingly aids or abets any person in the conduct of activities described in subparagraph (A), (B), or (C) or knowingly conspires with any person to engage in activities described in subparagraph (A), (B), or (C). [/b]
Yes, a person within the U.S. can be an "agent of a foreign power". But let's not put the cart before the horse.

Merely observing that a person is "suspicious" doesn't mean they are an "agent of a foreign power". Merely seeing a person write, "I'd really like to blow up" this or that U.S. landmark doesn't satisfy ANY of the critieria listed. To make the claim that someone within the U.S. is an "agent of a foreign power", the NSA needs at least some evidence that at least one of the sub-paragraphs above is satisfied.

Merely being an object of the NSA's suspicion (based on keywords in a randomly intercepted email or phone conversation) does NOT make a person an "agent of a foreign power". And such a person CANNOT legally be surveilled within the U.S. (because "foreign intelligence" - the only justification for performing domestic surveillance - can by definition exist ONLY if the object of the surveillance is an "agent of a foreign power").

I guarantee you that the vast majority of those individuals in the U.S. who are being warrantlessly surveilled do NOT meet the definition of an "agent of a foreign power". They are being surveilled because they caught the NSA's attention, for whatever reason.

And that's the problem. The Administration claims the power to surveill them anyway, clearly a position in violation of the law.

 
Originally posted by: shiraYes, a person within the U.S. can be an "agent of a foreign power". But let's not put the cart before the horse.

Merely observing that a person is "suspicious" doesn't mean they are an "agent of a foreign power". Merely seeing a person write, "I'd really like to blow up" this or that U.S. landmark doesn't satisfy ANY of the critieria listed. To make the claim that someone within the U.S. is an "agent of a foreign power", the NSA needs at least some evidence that at least one of the sub-paragraphs above is satisfied.

Merely being an object of the NSA's suspicion (based on keywords in a randomly intercepted email or phone conversation) does NOT make a person an "agent of a foreign power". And such a person CANNOT legally be surveilled within the U.S. (because "foreign intelligence" - the only justification for performing domestic surveillance - can by definition exist ONLY if the object of the surveillance is an "agent of a foreign power").

I guarantee you that the vast majority of those individuals in the U.S. who are being warrantlessly surveilled do NOT meet the definition of an "agent of a foreign power". They are being surveilled because they caught the NSA's attention, for whatever reason.

And that's the problem. The Administration claims the power to surveill them anyway, clearly a position in violation of the law.
I just looked this up because Rainsford mentioned it. Obviously it isn't a complete legal argument because it just does one thing, define an agent of a foreign power.
First the qualifier "knowingly" is not significant if the spying is targeting people who communicate with Al Quaeda knowingly. I don't know the nature of the spying but very likely it is obvious whether the communication is knowing or unknowing.
Now who is allowed to be spied on I do not know because I have not read the relevant documents. Presumably there is some sort of standard somewhere between "suspected of being an agent" to "an agent beyond reasonable doubt".
One thing that is a bit perplexing is the catch 22 question how can you have reasonable proof without having already carried out surveillance?
 
Originally posted by: CSMR
Originally posted by: shiraYes, a person within the U.S. can be an "agent of a foreign power". But let's not put the cart before the horse.

Merely observing that a person is "suspicious" doesn't mean they are an "agent of a foreign power". Merely seeing a person write, "I'd really like to blow up" this or that U.S. landmark doesn't satisfy ANY of the critieria listed. To make the claim that someone within the U.S. is an "agent of a foreign power", the NSA needs at least some evidence that at least one of the sub-paragraphs above is satisfied.

Merely being an object of the NSA's suspicion (based on keywords in a randomly intercepted email or phone conversation) does NOT make a person an "agent of a foreign power". And such a person CANNOT legally be surveilled within the U.S. (because "foreign intelligence" - the only justification for performing domestic surveillance - can by definition exist ONLY if the object of the surveillance is an "agent of a foreign power").

I guarantee you that the vast majority of those individuals in the U.S. who are being warrantlessly surveilled do NOT meet the definition of an "agent of a foreign power". They are being surveilled because they caught the NSA's attention, for whatever reason.

And that's the problem. The Administration claims the power to surveill them anyway, clearly a position in violation of the law.
I just looked this up because Rainsford mentioned it. Obviously it isn't a complete legal argument because it just does one thing, define an agent of a foreign power.
First the qualifier "knowingly" is not significant if the spying is targeting people who communicate with Al Quaeda knowingly. I don't know the nature of the spying but very likely it is obvious whether the communication is knowing or unknowing.
Now who is allowed to be spied on I do not know because I have not read the relevant documents. Presumably there is some sort of standard somewhere between "suspected of being an agent" to "an agent beyond reasonable doubt".
One thing that is a bit perplexing is the catch 22 question how can you have reasonable proof without having already carried out surveillance?
Precisely.

This is one of the most worrisome aspects of the NSA program. Several of the FISA-court judges have expressed concern that they may unknowingly have approved warrants that the NSA justified on the basis of information previously collected illegally. That is, the NSA may well be using the warrantless surveillance as a "boot strap" to obtain information that is then used to justify actual FISA warrants.

The word "knowingly" is significant because the mere fact that, say, some person participates in a web forum that the NSA suspects (or even knows) is supported by members of Al Qaeda does not establish that that individual is knowingly supporting Al Qaeda. And I'm guessing that a lot of this NSA surveillance is predicated on "evidence" as flimsy as that.

 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
So does it now become clear why the NSA isn't making its case in front of the FISA court? They KNOW they can't get a warrant in these "special" cases.

Are you insinuating that FISA is ill-suited to the threats we face? I'd agree 100%.

Please elaborate...what in particular about the FISA process makes it ill-suited to combat terrorism?
 
Originally posted by: CSMR
One argument that seems OK to me:

John Schmidt (Chicago Tribune):

In the Supreme Court?s 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president?s authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that ?All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority.?

The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an ?agent of a foreign power,? which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law?s procedures.

But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, ?FISA could not encroach on the president?s constitutional power.?

Cliffnotes: No Cliffnotes here...I know this is long, but read it if you are against the program and thought John Schmidt's analysis sounded fishy, or if you support the program and want to come up with a better defense...hopefully not one that is supported by powerlineblog.

Ok, at last I had some time to really look at this argument, and it appears that John Schmidt is wrong in his analysis. It is actually a fairly good argument, but like all arguments quoting legal documents, elipses (...) are a red flag.

The quote in the Chicago Tribune article ACTUALLY hide the following piece of the decision.
The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President?s constitutional power.

That bolded sentence is the really important part, as it gives much different meaning to the paragraph. I admit up front that I am not a lawyer, but reading that seems to suggest that the President has authority to conduct warrantless searches LIMITED by the President's constitutional authority. In other words, they are not supporting the idea that the President has UNLIMITED power to conduct warrentless searches for foreign intelligence purposes, quite the opposite in fact. The part about FISA is simply saying that whatever the constitutional authority the President holds, FISA can't limit it. This point is obvious, as it would be true of any law...laws can't be counter to the constitution. My understanding of previous court decisions suggests that the President has the authority to conduct warrentless searches of purely foreign targets, wiretapping two terrorists in Iraq talking to each other, for example. The "boundries of that constitution authority" would then refer to limits on domestic (either all domestic or partially domestic) wiretapping.

The other interesting thing here is that it appears that this decision, rather than suggesting FISA runs counter to the President's constitution authority, seems to suggest FISA is actually a good reflection of Presidential authority. The sentence following the ones quoted above...
The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President?s power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government?s contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable.

The word "amplify" is rather confusing in that context, but I believe the court is using the defintion of "amplify" that means illustrating a point. In this case, the court is saying that the question before them is whether or not FISA illustrates the President's power by providing a warrant mechanism that is close to a classic warrant. In other words, in the very best case for Bush, this question would be answered by saying that, yes, FISA is within the constitutional powers of the President.

THAT is interesting as well, just what is being discussed here? If you read the Chicago Tribune piece, or any conservative blog on the planet, you might think that the court decision is about whether or not FISA runs counter to Presidential authority. And you would be right, but not in the way you might think. The court was deciding whether or not FISA was an unconstitutional expansion of government powers. Yes, that's right, this court case that is being bandied about by everyone with access to a conservative information source, actually appears to be one more legal nail in Bush's legal coffin.

To quickly summarize, this case was about the FISA court granting a warrant, and placing special oversight restrictions on the warrant that the government felt ran counter to the language of FISA. The FISA court based these limitations on what it felt were constitutional issues surrounding the language of FISA, and thus the case was kicked to the Court of the Review.

Their conclusion is as follows...
Even without taking into account the President?s inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance, we think the procedures and government showings required under FISA, if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant standards, certainly come close. We, therefore, believe firmly, applying the balancing test drawn from Keith, that FISA as amended is constitutional because the surveillances it authorizes are reasonable.

Accordingly, we reverse the FISA court?s orders in this case to the extent they imposed conditions on the grant of the government?s applications, vacate the FISA court?s Rule 11, and remand with instructions to grant the applications as submitted and proceed henceforth in accordance with this opinion.

In other words, the court decision is that FISA is indeed "close enough for government work" and is constitutional. Or to put it another way, the court decided that FISA was NOT an unconstitutional expansion of Presidential authority. The question was NEVER whether or not FISA was an unconstitutional limit placed on the President, quite the opposite.

This, as you might imagine, took more than 5 mintues with Google. What DID take 5 minutes with Google was seeing dozens and dozens of conservative sites and articles, all posting the exact same idea with the exact same bits of text cherry picked from the legal ruling. THAT is what got me to actually read through the majority of the ruling, because it was clear that nobody else had.
 
Don't look now, but whatever vox populi the Republicans could claim even as recently as a year ago is rapidly vanishing. Remember, Bush won by 3% in the 2004 elections. I'm positive you guys have squandered that meager lead by now, but hey, fell free to keep believing whatever you want. It will make the inevitable fall all the more amusing.

Remember the old jokes about the two guys who meet a bear, and one of them starts putting on running shoes (when his buddy starts calling him crazy, that he'll never outrun a bear, the response is "I'm not trying to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun you"). This is the same sort of scenario. If the Democrats are weak the Republicans don't have to be prohibitively strong (indeed can even be weak themselves), they only need to be less weak than the competition.

Trust me, this is not an observation that I'm happy about (I'm a Libertarian and both Bush and the Democrats frighten me for different reasons). Although I wasn't (and still am not) a big fan of Bush I do however try to call them as I see them, ; at last election time I (correctly) predicted on the day of Kerry's acceptance speech at the (D) convention that he would lose to Bush who would achieve a true majority vote (not a plurality).
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Story Here

It appears the NSA's "broad" operations weren't so "broad" after all, straight from the Chief in charge at the time.

I've said from day one this whole "spying" thing was nonsense and that the mainstream media was pimping it out, like they do just about everything these days.

You believe the governemnt after all the lies you've been told knowing they have a CYA endemic policy?

I'm also confused how this trust of the government is suddenly manifested while at the same time conservative principles have mistrust of government in general? You know "smaller governemnt" and "incompetant beurocrats" the rank and file are always talking about. What heppend? Anyway as usual show me proof before I beleive it, like a credit check - Get the ones out there doing these investigations to tesitfy as to the numbers with proof.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
People like Pabster are traitors and cowards. They don't care about the Constitution, nor do they care about their country.

Still haven't got any facts, do ya? :laugh: :laugh:

Your insults are as pathetic as you are.

You didn't read the thread, did you : (. You ignore all of the main points, and instead focus on one small side comment. : (
 
Originally posted by: CSMR
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Thirdly, very little of the opposition to the program has anything to do with it being "broad" in any sense. Illegally spying on US persons is illegally spying on US persons, even if you only did it once.
"Not broad" refers not to numbers but to the specific targeting of people thought to be associated with Al-Quaeda.

You see, If they had evidence thru operations that they had going on in Iraq ect. that a US person was involved in terrorism they could get a warrant, no problem.

All you righties are assuming they need to get their info here, the best place would be abroad. Then they could get their warrants and act HERE.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
So does it now become clear why the NSA isn't making its case in front of the FISA court? They KNOW they can't get a warrant in these "special" cases.
Are you insinuating that FISA is ill-suited to the threats we face? I'd agree 100%.
Is that today's talking point, since they can no longer deny Bush circumvented FISA, they're now moving to swiftboat it? I suppose it's inevitable given the alternative: accepting the truth.

As Shira and others point out, since FISA is a rubber-stamp for even semi-reasonable requests, and since BushCo can file those requests up to 72 hours after the fact, the only reason to circumvent FISA is BushCo knows its requests are not reasonable. Given that Bush has this black and white view of the world -- you're either with us or you support terrorism -- it's easy to see how they can rationalize wiretapping pretty much anyone who doesn't worship at the Bush altar. Lord knows they've never demonstrated the integrity to restrain themselves based on mere right and wrong.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: Pabster
Story Here

It appears the NSA's "broad" operations weren't so "broad" after all, straight from the Chief in charge at the time.

I've said from day one this whole "spying" thing was nonsense and that the mainstream media was pimping it out, like they do just about everything these days.

What a professional liar says and what is truth could potentially be two very different things. Shocking revelation I know.

The problem here isn't whether or not General Hayden is lying, the problem is that Pabster and everyone like him uncritically accepts WHATEVER people in authority tell them.

Well jeez, the dude who used to be in the charge of the program says it was ok...well that's a relief, no need to worry about this anymore.

What's the point of a democracy if you let other people do your thinking for you?



Along the same lines, Bush says the spying is ok because he has had "lots of lawyers" look at it. Yeah, Alberto Gonsalves, Harriet Mieier, etc. Just the sort of impartiality that such an important question as this should have. NOT
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
First, it's hard to debate or have a discussion with a liar like yourself.

I don't have talking points, I have facts. You have sh*t.
Then bring out your "facts", tough boy.
why don't you start with this link posted above.
Yoo hoo! Pabster?!
???


I hear crickets.


 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
In other words, the court decision is that FISA is indeed "close enough for government work" and is constitutional. Or to put it another way, the court decided that FISA was NOT an unconstitutional expansion of Presidential authority. The question was NEVER whether or not FISA was an unconstitutional limit placed on the President, quite the opposite.
Great post, Rainsford!.

And to put this yet another way: What the court is essentially saying here that FISA, as it was amended, is a fairly accurate expression of the President's Constitutional authority. Therefore, to relax FISA's current standards - for example, to allow domestic surveillance in situations where "foreign intelligence" is an "ancillary purpose" (rather than a "primary purpose") - would be to go beyond the President's Contitutional authority.

So, in essence, when the President claims that his Consitutional powers cannot be limited by FISA, he is in fact stating that his Consitutional powers cannot be limited by the Constitution.

 
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Rainsford
In other words, the court decision is that FISA is indeed "close enough for government work" and is constitutional. Or to put it another way, the court decided that FISA was NOT an unconstitutional expansion of Presidential authority. The question was NEVER whether or not FISA was an unconstitutional limit placed on the President, quite the opposite.
Great post, Rainsford!.

And to put this yet another way: What the court is essentially saying here that FISA, as it was amended, is a fairly accurate expression of the President's Constitutional authority. Therefore, to relax FISA's current standards - for example, to allow domestic surveillance in situations where "foreign intelligence" is an "ancillary purpose" (rather than a "primary purpose") - would be to go beyond the President's Contitutional authority.

So, in essence, when the President claims that his Consitutional powers cannot be limited by FISA, he is in fact stating that his Consitutional powers cannot be limited by the Constitution.

Exactly. All the complaining about FISA is beside the point. The President derives his power from the constitution, and FISA simply reflects those powers. If the President's power is greater than what is specified in FISA, the argument follows that his power are greater than what is specified in the Constitution. Of course railing about FISA, a law most Americans don't understand, is much easier than raling agains the constitution, which is essentially what is going on here.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
Don't look now, but whatever vox populi the Republicans could claim even as recently as a year ago is rapidly vanishing. Remember, Bush won by 3% in the 2004 elections. I'm positive you guys have squandered that meager lead by now, but hey, fell free to keep believing whatever you want. It will make the inevitable fall all the more amusing.

Remember the old jokes about the two guys who meet a bear, and one of them starts putting on running shoes (when his buddy starts calling him crazy, that he'll never outrun a bear, the response is "I'm not trying to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun you"). This is the same sort of scenario. If the Democrats are weak the Republicans don't have to be prohibitively strong (indeed can even be weak themselves), they only need to be less weak than the competition.

Trust me, this is not an observation that I'm happy about (I'm a Libertarian and both Bush and the Democrats frighten me for different reasons). Although I wasn't (and still am not) a big fan of Bush I do however try to call them as I see them, ; at last election time I (correctly) predicted on the day of Kerry's acceptance speech at the (D) convention that he would lose to Bush who would achieve a true majority vote (not a plurality).

Perhaps. Time will tell of course, but I think the Republicans think they have a greater lead on the Dems than they really do. This is reinforced every time I hear that "true majority" quote. It's true, Bush DID win a majority of the voters, but hidden in that celebration is just how close Kerry came to beating him, Bush's victory margin was less than any other incumbant President in history, and the smallest for ANY election since 1976, if I remember correctly. This seems like an important point, and while it seems obvious that the Republicans would focused on how many votes Bush got, ignoring how many Kerry got seems like a mistake.

Like I said, time will tell, but this whole situation has very much the flavor of a football team winning when they pick up a fumble in the end zone, and then not bothering to practice for the next game.
 
Just to make sure everyone knows exactly what we're talking about, here's the full text of the Fourth Amendment to the U.S Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I don't care what lame excuses that POS wannabe führer, George Adolf Bushler tries to make for his actions, the words are clear, including the explicit requirement for a warrant. It lists NO exceptions, even for the Commando In Chief, even in time of war.

If he doesn't like it, I'll be glad to tell him what he can do if he can't take a joke. :|
 
That is for unreasonable searches and seisures. What is going on here is not searches and seisures, reasonable or not. (You mean implicit by the way.)
 
Originally posted by: CSMR
That is for unreasonable searches and seisures. What is going on here is not searches and seisures, reasonable or not. (You mean implicit by the way.)
Not so. Wiretaps are considered searches.
 
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