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Former Canadian Foreign Minister Scolds Bush, Condi and Co.

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Would use Winnipeg newspaper as link, but it is a subscription-based link.

Axworthy fires back at U.S. -- and Canadian -- critics of our BMD decision in An Open Letter to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice

Thursday, March 3rd, 2005

By LLOYD AXWORTHY

Dear Condi, I'm glad you've decided to get over your fit of pique and venture north to visit your closest neighbour. It's a chance to learn a thing or two. Maybe more.

I know it seems improbable to your divinely guided master in the White House that mere mortals might disagree with participating in a missile-defence system that has failed in its last three tests, even though the tests themselves were carefully rigged to show results.

But, gosh, we folks above the 49th parallel are somewhat cautious types who can't quite see laying down billions of dollars in a three-dud poker game.

As our erstwhile Prairie-born and bred (and therefore prudent) finance minister pointed out in presenting his recent budget, we've had eight years of balanced or surplus financial accounts. If we're going to spend money, Mr. Goodale added, it will be on day-care and health programs, and even on more foreign aid and improved defence.

Sure, that doesn't match the gargantuan, multi-billion-dollar deficits that your government blithely runs up fighting a "liberation war" in Iraq, laying out more than half of all weapons expenditures in the world, and giving massive tax breaks to the top one per cent of your population while cutting food programs for poor children.

Just chalk that up to a different sense of priorities about what a national government's role should be when there isn't a prevailing mood of manifest destiny.

Coming to Ottawa might also expose you to a parliamentary system that has a thing called question period every day, where those in the executive are held accountable by an opposition for their actions, and where demands for public debate on important topics such a missile defence can be made openly.

You might also notice that it's a system in which the governing party's caucus members are not afraid to tell their leader that their constituents don't want to follow the ideological, perhaps teleological, fantasies of Canada's continental co-inhabitant. And that this leader actually listens to such representations.

Your boss did not avail himself of a similar opportunity to visit our House of Commons during his visit, fearing, it seems, that there might be some signs of dissent. He preferred to issue his diktat on missile defence in front of a highly controlled, pre-selected audience.

Such control-freak antics may work in the virtual one-party state that now prevails in Washington. But in Canada we have a residual belief that politicians should be subject to a few checks and balances, an idea that your country once espoused before the days of empire.

If you want to have us consider your proposals and positions, present them in a proper way, through serious discussion across the table in our cabinet room, as your previous president did when he visited Ottawa. And don't embarrass our prime minister by lobbing a verbal missile at him while he sits on a public stage, with no chance to respond.

Now, I understand that there may have been some miscalculations in Washington based on faulty advice from your resident governor of the "northern territories," Ambassador Cellucci. But you should know by now that he hasn't really won the hearts and minds of most Canadians through his attempts to browbeat and command our allegiance to U.S. policies.

Sadly, Mr. Cellucci has been far too closeted with exclusive groups of 'experts' from Calgary think-tanks and neo-con lobbyists at cross-border conferences to remotely grasp a cross-section of Canadian attitudes (nor American ones, for that matter).

I invite you to expand the narrow perspective that seems to inform your opinions of Canada by ranging far wider in your reach of contacts and discussions. You would find that what is rising in Canada is not so much anti-Americanism, as claimed by your and our right-wing commentators, but fundamental disagreements with certain policies of your government. You would see that rather than just reacting to events by drawing on old conventional wisdoms, many Canadians are trying to think our way through to some ideas that can be helpful in building a more secure world.

These Canadians believe that security can be achieved through well-modulated efforts to protect the rights of people, not just nation-states.

To encourage and advance international co-operation on managing the risk of climate change, they believe that we need agreements like Kyoto.

To protect people against international crimes like genocide and ethnic cleansing, they support new institutions like the International Criminal Court -- which, by the way, you might strongly consider using to hold accountable those committing atrocities today in Darfur, Sudan.

And these Canadians believe that the United Nations should indeed be reformed -- beginning with an agreement to get rid of the veto held by the major powers over humanitarian interventions to stop violence and predatory practices.

On this score, you might want to explore the concept of the 'Responsibility to Protect' while you're in Ottawa. It's a Canadian idea born out of the recent experience of Kosovo and informed by the many horrific examples of inhumanity over the last half-century. Many Canadians feel it has a lot more relevance to providing real human security in the world than missile defence ever will.

This is not just some quirky notion concocted in our long winter nights, by the way. It seems to have appeal for many in your own country, if not the editorialists at the Wall Street Journal or Rush Limbaugh. As I discovered recently while giving a series of lectures in southern California, there is keen interest in how the U.S. can offer real leadership in managing global challenges of disease, natural calamities and conflict, other than by military means.

There is also a very strong awareness on both sides of the border of how vital Canada is to the U.S. as a partner in North America. We supply copious amounts of oil and natural gas to your country, our respective trade is the world's largest in volume, and we are increasingly bound together by common concerns over depletion of resources, especially very scarce fresh water.

Why not discuss these issues with Canadians who understand them, and seek out ways to better cooperate in areas where we agree -- and agree to respect each other's views when we disagree.

Above all, ignore the Cassandras who deride the state of our relations because of one missile-defence decision. Accept that, as a friend on your border, we will offer a different, independent point of view. And that there are times when truth must speak to power.

In friendship, Lloyd Axworthy

(Lloyd Axworthy is president of the University of Winnipeg and a former Canadian foreign minister)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's good to see that Canada has its priorities straight and have become the model to which the U.S. should strive to become or surpass. Public disonence is something Bush doesn't want to face, under any circumstances, because even Canada knows that by doing so, it'll expose him and the entire Republican party for what it is: a fraud.
 
I've always liked Lloyd...even though he isn't exactly on the same page as me politically, he's a smart guy and is always worth listening to. All of what he says is the true. I know it is hard to listen to the small guy on your right shoulder, but as long as people listen and consider, that is all we ask of them.
 
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
It's good to see that Canada has its priorities straight and have become the model to which the U.S. should strive to become or surpass. Public disonence is something Bush doesn't want to face, under any circumstances, because even Canada knows that by doing so, it'll expose him and the entire Republican party for what it is: a fraud.

Will Canada get it's own Arsenal though?

They just rejected the U.S. Missle Defense plan and forbid Air Space intrusion by the U.S. without permission.

Canada better start using all that NAFTA money and get building War machinery and Ammo.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
It's good to see that Canada has its priorities straight and have become the model to which the U.S. should strive to become or surpass. Public disonence is something Bush doesn't want to face, under any circumstances, because even Canada knows that by doing so, it'll expose him and the entire Republican party for what it is: a fraud.

Will Canada get it's own Arsenal though?

They just rejected the U.S. Missle Defense plan and forbid Air Space intrusion by the U.S. without permission.

Canada better start using all that NAFTA money and get building War machinery and Ammo.

Oh that's right.. "We're going to roll over and crush them." I keep forgetting.
 
Unlike some countries...*cough**cough*, the Canadian parliament is for the most part filled with very educated people. If they weren't, they'd get shot down not only by the opposition, but their own party. There is far less "us and them" here. There's usually a per issue party stance (4 major parties in the house of commons) and MP's (members of parliament) vote on their constituents rather than party line.
 
*claps* Bravo! Great letter, although I doubt it will make much difference to President Cheney. Canadians have always been wary of Republican administrations, looks like this admin won't be changing that!

Can you imagine W being asked questions by intelligent, career politicians from "the other side" in a Parliament style Q&A? Bwhahahaha! It would make the hilarity of The Debates pale in comparison! :laugh: Meh, wouldn't happen - it would require intellect, language and political skills to all be prerequisites for the presidency!
 
Thank God that Bush can't read on his own - Rove will be able to paraphrase
it into a glowing praise of Dubya, and promising to help at a future date.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
It's good to see that Canada has its priorities straight and have become the model to which the U.S. should strive to become or surpass. Public disonence is something Bush doesn't want to face, under any circumstances, because even Canada knows that by doing so, it'll expose him and the entire Republican party for what it is: a fraud.

Will Canada get it's own Arsenal though?

They just rejected the U.S. Missle Defense plan and forbid Air Space intrusion by the U.S. without permission.

Canada better start using all that NAFTA money and get building War machinery and Ammo.


The missle defense system has been a trillion dollar fraud that's spanned several presidents. Nobody in their right mind would contribute a cent to that system (at least until it's built).
 
Originally posted by: Ldir
Wow! I wish I could write like that. Too bad nobody in the White House is listening.

I didn't elect George Bush to listen to what Canada says.. I elected him for HIS leadership.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Unlike some countries...*cough**cough*, the Canadian parliament is for the most part filled with very educated people. If they weren't, they'd get shot down not only by the opposition, but their own party. There is far less "us and them" here. There's usually a per issue party stance (4 major parties in the house of commons) and MP's (members of parliament) vote on their constituents rather than party line.
Where'd you come up with that crap? The second most popular secondary occupation for Members of Parliament is as a farmer; first, of course, is the occupation of lawyer. And only 13 of 308 current MPs have previous military experience. MPs don't vote their concience on major issues any more often than Congressmen in the States do.
 
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Thank God that Bush can't read on his own - Rove will be able to paraphrase
it into a glowing praise of Dubya, and promising to help at a future date.

But Bush was smart enough to mislead 100's of millions of people into supporting a false war.. which is it, is he stupid or are you stupid?
 
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Thank God that Bush can't read on his own - Rove will be able to paraphrase
it into a glowing praise of Dubya, and promising to help at a future date.

But Bush was smart enough to mislead 100's of millions of people into supporting a false war.. which is it, is he stupid or are you stupid?
He had a bit of *cough*Rovian*cough* help.
 
You might also notice that it's a system in which the governing party's caucus members are not afraid to tell their leader that their constituents don't want to follow the ideological, perhaps teleological, fantasies of Canada's continental co-inhabitant. And that this leader actually listens to such representations.
A hahaha
But in Canada we have a residual belief that politicians should be subject to a few checks and balances
What country is he talking about? Surely not Canada *cough Chretien*.
And these Canadians believe that the United Nations should indeed be reformed -- beginning with an agreement to get rid of the veto held by the major powers over humanitarian interventions to stop violence and predatory practices.
There's a damn good idea. Veto power in the UN is plainly retarded.
Can you imagine W being asked questions by intelligent, career politicians from "the other side" in a Parliament style Q&A? Bwhahahaha! It would make the hilarity of The Debates pale in comparison! Meh, wouldn't happen - it would require intellect, language and political skills all prerequisites for presidency!
I'll agree with that. It's fun watching Blair rebut (or not) questions he receives in these same style debates and, like bush or not, the guy is a blazingly pathetic debater. He'd continually end up going home crying.
 
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: Stunt
Unlike some countries...*cough**cough*, the Canadian parliament is for the most part filled with very educated people. If they weren't, they'd get shot down not only by the opposition, but their own party. There is far less "us and them" here. There's usually a per issue party stance (4 major parties in the house of commons) and MP's (members of parliament) vote on their constituents rather than party line.
Where'd you come up with that crap? The second most popular secondary occupation for Members of Parliament is as a farmer; first, of course, is the occupation of lawyer. And only 13 of 308 current MPs have previous military experience. MPs don't vote their concience on major issues any more often than Congressmen in the States do.
First off you took all 37 house of commons parliaments...and when the country was created, yeah, i'd expect a crapload of farmers. Rather than saying farmers are stupid i will draw the conclusion that farmers helped form our country and here is the current, real breakdown in the house of commons, according to your link 😛
occupations
Businessman / Businesswoman 78
Teacher 47
Lawyer 44
Consultant 38
Administrator 30
Manager 29
Farmer 22
Professor 21
Author 16
Journalist 13
So you can "shut up" (o'reilly) on that arguement.

Since when has military been inportant at all in politics, especially a country with a very limited one, mainly used for peacekeeping (which we are quite good at), i guess you are going to talk about the excellent military experience of bush, cheney, condi and kerry. Right, make a case for any of those people and you will have one side or another on your a$$ so fast...Military is irrelevant in canadian politics.

Canadian MP's vote against the party line all the time, they are also very outspoken...there have been many liberals who supported the war in iraq, as well as stopping gay marriage. Our MP's aren't afraid to stand up PUBLICALLY, and you know this.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
You might also notice that it's a system in which the governing party's caucus members are not afraid to tell their leader that their constituents don't want to follow the ideological, perhaps teleological, fantasies of Canada's continental co-inhabitant. And that this leader actually listens to such representations.
A hahaha
But in Canada we have a residual belief that politicians should be subject to a few checks and balances
What country is he talking about? Surely not Canada *cough Chretien*.
And these Canadians believe that the United Nations should indeed be reformed -- beginning with an agreement to get rid of the veto held by the major powers over humanitarian interventions to stop violence and predatory practices.
There's a damn good idea. Veto power in the UN is plainly retarded.
Can you imagine W being asked questions by intelligent, career politicians from "the other side" in a Parliament style Q&A? Bwhahahaha! It would make the hilarity of The Debates pale in comparison! Meh, wouldn't happen - it would require intellect, language and political skills all prerequisites for presidency!
I'll agree with that. It's fun watching Blair rebut (or not) questions he receives in these same style debates and, like bush or not, the guy is a blazingly pathetic debater. He'd continually end up going home crying.

Well, guess what? All of Chretien's chums and himself are under the spotlight now with the public inquiry of the sponsorship scandal which is probing deeper into this mess by the day. Who knows, by the end of all this, Chretien might get screwed royally ... it's called ACCOUNT-AH-BILITY.
 
So you can "shut up" (o'reilly) on that arguement.


LOL, you like apples yllus? :laugh:


it's called ACCOUNT-AH-BILITY.


Sorry, no speakee accountabilitee in washington, dee cee... Unless it has to do with the UN, in which case we're all for it. :roll:
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Unlike some countries...*cough**cough*, the Canadian parliament is for the most part filled with very educated people. If they weren't, they'd get shot down not only by the opposition, but their own party. There is far less "us and them" here. There's usually a per issue party stance (4 major parties in the house of commons) and MP's (members of parliament) vote on their constituents rather than party line.

Stunt, you are talking out of your ass. Name three bills in the last year that had more than 5 Liberals vote against it. You probably can't, you know why? They didn't happen.

The Canadian Parliament has one of the most diciplined party structures in the world. More than England, more than Australia, and much, much more than the US.

Ever hear of John Nunziata? How 'bout Carolyn Parrish? That's what happens to Liberals who step out of line publicly: booted from the party, and sent to the fringes of Canadian public llfe. Oh, sure, they get re-elected in their ridings, voters love seeing their reps thumb the party, but they get no power after that. Nunziata tried running for Mayor of TO, and he came in fourth. Or was it fifth? I can't remember. And that's what happens if you ignore your party whip up here in Canada.

That being said, yes, our ministers do tend to be educated and intelligent people. And I've always liked Axworthy.
 
First of all, Nunziata got the boot because he was not selected for cabinet and threw a hissy fit. His actions and views were not what the party stood for, especially around quebec refferendum time the liberals did not need to deal with him. Spouting off socially conservative views is not something that plays well with quebec voters. He is an extreme case in extreme times.
Again, Parrish was not taken out because of her views but her extreme language and harsh words towards the rest of her party. Parrish quit from the party, she was not given the boot. Although she deserved it.
These two were not voicing their opinions but full out creating a counterproductive government, trying exclusively to be sh!t disturbers.

I am not familiar with voting in bills, but i do know of conservatives and liberals who have been vocal about missile defense, gay marriage, iraq etc, which did not follow party line. This is common on key issues. David Pratt and Martin at one time were openly critical of not going into iraq.
look at some liberal quotes
 
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