Formatting a SSD and need advice for RAID 0 SSD

[taltamir]

Mesa,

What is the difference and effects of Secure erase and the Enhanced.
In other words, a block being marked with 0 and factory format pattern?
What is factory format pattern?

1. an empty SSD cell has a 1, not a 0.
2. the address resolution table in an SSD needs to show an address to contain no valid data or you will have slowdowns (this is something trim addresses)

I don't know where teh "factory format pattern" thing came from

 

[erdemali]

1. an empty SSD cell has a 1, not a 0.
2. the address resolution table in an SSD needs to show an address to contain no valid data or you will have slowdowns (this is something trim addresses)

I don't know where teh "factory format pattern" thing came from

Taltamir,
Thanks for correcting me. I meant binary 0=dec 1.
HDDerase has this "Enhanced secure erase option" and in the HDDerase Readme file the following explanation made.

In more correct way I just wanted to find out what the "predetermined data patterns (set by the manufacturer)" is.

Q: What is the difference between secure erase and enhanced secure erase?

A: Secure erase overwrites all user data areas with binary zeroes. Enhanced
secure erase writes predetermined data patterns (set by the manufacturer) to all user data areas, including sectors that are no longer in use due to
reallocation. ***NOTE: the enhanced secure erase option is not supported by
all ATA drives.

 

[Old Hippie]

What is the difference and effects of Secure erase and the Enhanced.

Here's another answer.

It doesn't really add much......

 

[taltamir]

Thanks for correcting me. I meant binary 0=dec 1.

what dec 1? decimal 1? that makes no sense.

Anyways, an SSD cell has a binary 1 in it when it is erased.

as for the enhanced secure erase. It sounds to me like the official ATA "secure erase command"... basically the program tells the spindle HDD or SSD to secure erase, and the drive's controller then automatically erases all data, writes predetermined random data as set by the manufacturer, etc... Some manufacturers simple have it write 0s to the entire drive, some will have it write random numbers, some do not implement a secure erase command and giving such a command to those drives is ignored.

 

[erdemali]

what dec 1? decimal 1? that makes no sense.

Anyways, an SSD cell has a binary 1 in it when it is erased.

binary 0=2 to the power of 0=1 in decimal system.
This is the HDDErase explanation of Secure erase and it says binary 0.

Q: What is the difference between secure erase and enhanced secure erase?

A: Secure erase overwrites all user data areas with binary zeroes. Enhanced
secure erase writes predetermined data patterns (set by the manufacturer) to all user data areas, including sectors that are no longer in use due to
reallocation. ***NOTE: the enhanced secure erase option is not supported by
all ATA drives.

as for the enhanced secure erase. It sounds to me like the official ATA "secure erase command"... basically the program tells the spindle HDD or SSD to secure erase, and the drive's controller then automatically erases all data, writes predetermined random data as set by the manufacturer, etc... Some manufacturers simple have it write 0s to the entire drive, some will have it write random numbers, some do not implement a secure erase command and giving such a command to those drives is ignored.

Thanks

 

[sub.mesa]

I am going to take their word over yours.

Kind of ironic, since this very website has an excellent article regarding this issue, and were the ones who actually documented IBM Zürich's research.

This URL shows everyone on one page:
http://www.anandtech.com/print/2829

Mesa,

What is the difference and effects of Secure erase and the Enhanced.
In other words, a block being marked with 0 and factory format pattern?
What is factory format pattern?

A secure erase does NOT write to the NAND flash; instead it wipes the HPA mapping tables (contained in DRAM and also stored in some reserved NAND pages). Without the mapping table, all reference to where data was stored is lost; so even though the NAND contents are still the same, this would mean you reset the performance characteristics of the drive.

With enhanced secure erase, often it is used to designate overwriting all contents in addition to the secure erase. This method would also make data recovery impossible, as the physical NAND pages would be written to. Note that this does mark all visible sectors as claimed by the OS; reserving space after this technique will therefore not work! Only if you do a normal secure erase after; perhaps some utilities do this automatically i'm not sure.

A casual format, writing zeroes or ones or some random pattern like DBAN, would achieve a similar effect to that of a Secure Erase; it would make all data static again instead of dynamic, but it also would claim all visible data to the operating system; reserving space would not work.

So to reserve additional spare space, only the secure erase method works. Note that formatting under Windows Vista or XP will only read; not write to the entire disk space. Also note that a NANDs 'off' position is actually ones (11111111) and not zeroes (00000000).

 

[erdemali]

enhanced[/B] secure erase, often it is used to designate overwriting all contents in addition to the secure erase. This method would also make data recovery impossible, as the physical NAND pages would be written to. Note that this does mark all visible sectors as claimed by the OS; reserving space after this technique will therefore not work! Only if you do a normal secure erase after; perhaps some utilities do this automatically i'm not sure.

Thank you for the detailed explanation.Highly appreciated.
If "Enhanced Secure Erase" option takes me back to factory defaults, and if you are correct, I would assume reserving spare area of an untouched brand new SSD would not work. Or am I lost all the way🙂

 

[sub.mesa]

Well it depends on how the program does this, and how the SSD works internally. But just to be sure, do a normal secure erase after the enhanced secure erase. That normal secure erase doesn't cost you any write cycles anyway. You can do it as often as you want. But of course, it does destroy/corrupt the entire contents as without the mapping table the difference between how Windows thinks data is stored and how it is stored on the SSD physically, is gone. Without that data, the contents would be corrupt, though partial snippets of data will still be there and even files can still be recovered. That's why there is enhanced secure erase.

But you shouldn't need to do the Enhanced Secure Erase; only when you're concerned about privacy/security and want to destroy the contents of the SSD making it unrecoverable. Otherwise, it just wastes write cycles and you better just do the normal secure erase.

 

[taltamir]

A full format under windows vista or windows 7 will write 0s to the entire disk, windows XP and earlier wouldn't, but starting with windows vista a full format does indeed write 0s to the disk.

 

[erdemali]

Mesa,

One more question while I got you.
How a SSD does erasing large amount of data with very high erase block fragmentation that is much much larger than spare area? Is it a valid question?

 

[sub.mesa]

@taltamir

Appears you're correct. Indeed, also Vista do - by default - write zeroes on a long format.
URL: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/941961

@erdemali
I'm not really sure what you mean; erasing data? erasing by TRIM or a secure erase? The Intel controller has 16MB of SDRAM volatile memory to store the HPA mapping table; erasing stuff would only be an interaction between the controller and the SDRAM chip; the actual NAND remains untouched.

 

[erdemali]

A full format under windows vista or windows 7 will write 0s to the entire disk, windows XP and earlier wouldn't, but starting with windows vista a full format does indeed write 0s to the disk.

Good to know this, Taltamir. I am loving this place more and more.
It is really dynamic. I get to learn a lot every day.

 

[Old Hippie]

One more question while I got you.

😀

Poor MerrickAggie97 (OP) will probably never ask another question again! 😀

 

[erdemali]

@taltamir

Appears you're correct. Indeed, also Vista do - by default - write zeroes on a long format.
URL: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/941961

@erdemali
I'm not really sure what you mean; erasing data? erasing by TRIM or a secure erase? The Intel controller has 16MB of SDRAM volatile memory to store the HPA mapping table; erasing stuff would only be an interaction between the controller and the SDRAM chip; the actual NAND remains untouched.

Eventhough you didn't understand my question, I got what I wanted to know.
Thanks again

 

[erdemali]

😀

Poor MerrickAggie97 (origional OP) will probably never ask another question again! 😀

LOL I know I am mucking up the thread but just ignore me please😀

 

[erdemali]

A full format under windows vista or windows 7 will write 0s to the entire disk, windows XP and earlier wouldn't, but starting with windows vista a full format does indeed write 0s to the disk.

Taltamir, I don't know what your intentions are but you are not answering my questions.

HDDerase says secure erase writes binary zeroes. Or we are having some communication problems?

Q: What is the difference between secure erase and enhanced secure erase?

A: Secure erase overwrites all user data areas with binary zeroes. Enhanced
secure erase writes predetermined data patterns (set by the manufacturer) to all user data areas, including sectors that are no longer in use due to
reallocation. ***NOTE: the enhanced secure erase option is not supported by
all ATA drives.

 

[taltamir]

binary 0=2 to the power of 0=1 in decimal system.

This is utter nonsense.

Binary is a system where you represent all data using 0s and 1s. You can encode more complex data there, for example, you can encode an 8 bit integer by specifying 8 binary digits (bits) to be, 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1 from left to right, and add those... so to represent 37 you would write 00100101 = 32 + 4 + 1 = 37

Any data on a drive is actually encoded in some format or another, called a "file system". Which specifies exactly how different data are stored in binary (0s and 1s). Also, the saying that "binary is language of computers" is an utter and total lie. Binary is a method of storing information, but it is meaningless in of itself. The most basic computer "language" would be assembly language.

Windows 0 writes all 0s to the drive, obviously the underlying binary data is filled with zeroes. For an SSD you need to write all binary 1s.

 

[erdemali]

This is utter nonsense.

Binary is a system where you represent all data using 0s and 1s. You can encode more complex data there, for example, you can encode an 8 bit integer by specifying 8 binary digits (bits) to be, 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1 from left to right, and add those... so to represent 37 you would write 00100101 = 32 + 4 + 1 = 37

Any data on a drive is actually encoded in some format or another, called a "file system". Which specifies exactly how different data are stored in binary (0s and 1s). Also, the saying that "binary is language of computers" is an utter and total lie. Binary is a method of storing information, but it is meaningless in of itself. The most basic computer "language" would be assembly language.

Windows 0 writes all 0s to the drive, obviously the underlying binary data is filled with zeroes. For an SSD you need to write all binary 1s.

You are just full of shit.

 

[Voo]

You are just full of shit.

No he's right, if "binary 0" was really 2^0 = 1, then "decimal 0" would by the same logic be 10^0 = 1, which, um, is contradicting itself - and more importantly that nomenclature would mean that you could only express powers to the base in any numeral system, which just does not work.
0 has to be 0 in every base, without that no numeral system could possibly work - that holds true even for really exotic bases like -2 or -1 + i (and honestly it can't get much more exotic than i-1 for bases 😛)

Though for the nitpickers under us, "The most basic computer "language" would be assembly language." is wrong. Even if we don't count the disassembled hexcode, there's still microcode for lots of CPUs 😉

 

[erdemali]

No he's right, if "binary 0" was really 2^0 = 1, then "decimal 0" would by the same logic be 10^0 = 1, which, um, is contradicting itself - and more importantly that nomenclature would mean that you could only express powers to the base in any numeral system, which just does not work.
0 has to be 0 in every base, without that no numeral system could possibly work - that holds true even for really exotic bases like -2 or -1 + i (and honestly it can't get much more exotic than i-1 for bases 😛)

Though for the nitpickers under us, "The most basic computer "language" would be assembly language." is wrong. Even if we don't count the disassembled hexcode, there's still microcode for lots of CPUs 😉

You are full of shit too.😀
In a virtual world, one can act in anyway they want. And it's their free will.
They can even introduce themselves as rocket scientists.
I'd like to see you guys in action in real world.(I wish I could)
I bet most would be wandering around lost themselves playing games
with the most expensive toys one could have.
Here they are giving me a lecture on things that are no more than jokes to me.😀

 

[taltamir]

Though for the nitpickers under us, "The most basic computer "language" would be assembly language." is wrong. Even if we don't count the disassembled hexcode, there's still microcode for lots of CPUs 😉

Oops, I goofed 😛.
Yea, you are right there. I mistakingly thought this was part of assembly, but they seem to be two seperate layers.

Anyways, erdemali, VOO is very knowledgeable and you would do well to listen to what he has to say. You get insulted the moment you are corrected and start throwing childish tantrums. This is not conductive to constructive debate. I come here to learn and to teach and I believe so does VOO, until you grow up I don't think you can do either.

 

[erdemali]

Oops, I goofed 😛.
I come here to learn and to teach and I believe so does VOO, until you grow up I don't think you can do either.

So do I, but I don't think I have enough time to post thousands of messages and joust about how superior I am that I know I am anyway. Even now I am just wasting my time and probably I am talking to the same person with multiple personalities. Who knows? And most likely measuring your d1cks everyday if it is getting bigger but in fact still relatively small.

 

[taltamir]

So do I, but I don't think I have enough time to post thousands of messages and joust about how superior I am that I know I am anyway. Even now I am just wasting my time and probably I am talking to the same person with multiple personalities. Who knows? And most likely measuring your d1cks everyday if it is getting bigger but in fact still relatively small.

yes, you are absolutely right. Me and VOO are actually the same person, using multiple accounts in order to lend fake credence to our boasting. We/I are/am not trying to help people, but to compensate for our/my tiny penis by pretending to have a massive ePenis TM.

 

[erdemali]

yes, you are absolutely right. Me and VOO are actually the same person, using multiple accounts in order to lend fake credence to our boasting. We/I are/am not trying to help people, but to compensate for our/my tiny penis by pretending to have a massive ePenis TM.

You never know oneday we may happen to meet in person and then we can do the d1ck measuring contest in real life.😀 But I warn you to hold your jaw. It is a small world.🙂

 

[MerrickAggie97]

so ummm, remind me the best way to perform a secure erase now?!