Forecasts for Growth Drop, Some Sharply

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
We are in big trouble.

Economic growth may drop to 2% which is almost nothing.

Employment numbers continue to be poor.

We seem stuck and no one has a solution to the problem (or is willing to implement a solution that might help the other side politically)

I don't think things are going to get better before 2013, after the election.
And a story like this is pretty much the end of Obama. There is no way he will be able to recover for this mess in time to win in 2012. Four years in office with 9% unemployment and 2% growth, he will be crushed Jimmy Carter style.

As for the economy: We need to give up on tax increases, give up on major spending cuts and even look at ways to stimulate the economy. Perhaps another housing credit, payroll tax relief. Let's worry about our debt problem later, right now we need to fix the economy, plus we will never be able to fix the debt problem with this economy.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43534613
A drumbeat of disappointing data about consumer behavior, factory sales and weak hiring in recent weeks has prompted economists to ratchet down their 2011 economic forecasts to as little as half what they expected at the beginning of the year.

Two months ago, Goldman Sachs projected that the economy would grow at a 4 percent annual rate in the quarter ending in June. The company now expects the government to report no more than 2 percent growth when data for the second quarter is released in a few weeks.

Macroeconomic Advisers, a research firm, projected 3.5 percent growth back in April and is now down to just 2.1 percent for this quarter.

Both these firms, well respected in their analysis, have cut their forecasts for the second half of the year as well. Then this week, the Federal Reserve downgraded its projections for the full year, to under 3 percent growth. It started the year with guidance as high as 3.9 percent.

Two years into the official recovery, the economy is still behaving like a plane taxiing indefinitely on the runway. Few economists are predicting an out-and-out return to recession, but the risk has increased, with the health of the American economy depending in part on what is really “transitory.”

During the first press conference in the central bank’s history two months ago, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke used the word to describe factors — including supply chain disruptions after the earthquake and tsunami in Japan and rising oil prices — that were restraining economic growth in the first half of the year.

Earlier this week, Mr. Bernanke confessed that “some of these headwinds may be stronger and more persistent than we thought,” adding, “we don’t have a precise read on why this slower pace of growth is persisting.”

Economists say the unexpected shocks from Japan and the Middle East in the first half of the year go only partway toward explaining the deceleration. Many worries remain: housing prices have continued to fall, hiring is weak, wages are flat, growth in emerging economies like China and India is slowing and the debt crisis in Europe could have ripple effects.

What’s more, government stimulants like the payroll tax cut and the extension of unemployment benefits are scheduled to expire at the end of this year. With the underlying economy undeniably tepid, economists are concerned that further shocks to the system could knock the country off its slow upward trajectory.

“The likelihood of a negative surprise is bigger than the likelihood of a positive surprise,” said Jerry A. Webman, chief economist at OppenheimerFunds.

There was a glimmer of hope on Friday when the government reported that orders for appliances and other equipment from manufacturers were higher than expected in May. And the Commerce Department edged up its estimate of growth in the first three months of the year to 1.9 percent, from 1.8 percent.

The slow place of the economy’s expansion is not entirely surprising, though it is clearly painful for those who are out of work and whose homes are worth far less than a few years ago. Many economists, most prominently Kenneth S. Rogoff and Carmen M. Reinhart, have emphasized that recovering from a financial crisis takes much longer than from a normal cyclical recession.

Jan Hatzius, the chief United States economist at Goldman Sachs, said that in fact, households appeared to be paying down debt largely as expected. “Most of the things that looked like they were improving six months ago still look like they are improving,” he said.

Analysts generally expect the economy to pick up in the second half as supplies from Japan come back and car production resumes at some temporarily idled plants. “Parts producers are getting back online a lot quicker than anybody had thought,” said Ben Herzon, a senior economist at Macroeconomic Advisers. The firm is forecasting 3.5 percent overall economic growth in the second half of the year, though that is down from its projection at the beginning of the year of 4 to 4.5 percent.

Consumer spending has been lukewarm as people have cut back elsewhere to cover for higher prices at the pump. Although gas prices have eased in the wake of the International Energy Agency’s announcement that it would release some emergency stockpiles of oil, there is no guarantee prices won’t climb again as turmoil in the Middle East continues. In the meantime, customers remain wary.

“A lot of the factors that will give us a boost in the second half are largely temporary and will run their course at some point,” said David Greenlaw, chief United States economist at Morgan Stanley.

At Young Ford, a car dealership in Charlotte, N.C., David McKinney, operations manager, said that while sales had perked up in the spring, buyers were now holding back. “The psychology is going to take a little while to work through,” he said. He added that consumers were having a hard time obtaining satisfactory loan terms.

Many consumers, he said, were simply afraid to make big commitments while uncertainty hung like a haze over the economy. “We need to let the middle class catch the rabbit,” he said. “Tell them they can go to work 50 hours a week, go to the beach and send their kids to the college and they’ll just keep chasing the rabbit. But now they’re not even sure their job will be there.”

Economists are waiting to see whether the disappointing Labor Department report of hiring in May — which showed that employers added just 54,000 jobs, hardly enough to keep up with normal population growth, much less dent the unemployment rate — was an anomaly or the sign of a significant stall.

Companies have given mixed signs of hiring plans. At United Parcel Service, the package delivery giant, volumes declined slightly in the first quarter, and the company is now hiring only seasonal workers or filling in jobs as people leave, not adding new positions. “Our business model is very simple,” said Norman Black, a company spokesman. “Packages equals jobs.”

Caterpillar, the large equipment manufacturer, has added 7,300 jobs in this country over the last year. With new factories in Muncie, Ind.; Winston-Salem, N.C.; and Texas, the company will continue to hire in the second half, said Jim Dugan, a company spokesman. But he declined to say how many workers would be added.

Given the clouded outlook on hiring and the potential for further shocks, Mr. Hatzius of Goldman Sachs said that he could not rule out another recession. “We’re still a reasonable way off from that,” he said. “But I’m not as confident as I would like to be.”
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
We are in big trouble.

Economic growth may drop to 2% which is almost nothing.

Employment numbers continue to be poor.

We seem stuck and no one has a solution to the problem (or is willing to implement a solution that might help the other side politically)...

As for the economy: We need to give up on tax increases, give up on major spending cuts and even look at ways to stimulate the economy. Perhaps another housing credit, payroll tax relief. Let's worry about our debt problem later, right now we need to fix the economy, plus we will never be able to fix the debt problem with this economy.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43534613

Wow, you have made a lot of progress. The main thing left is you need to support tax increases on the wealthy who have taken such an excessive share counterproductively.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Still waiting on those jobs bills that were pledged...

pledge-to-america.jpg
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
To clarify, growth is not 2%; it's negative, and hugely so.

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

Notice it does not care about government deficit. If you change the equation to include "- deficit spending" GDP is wildly negative and has been for years and will continue to be.

The economy literally is shrinking because its debt (a liability) grows so huge and must be addressed one way or another at some point in the future.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
To me, it's quite simple. Economy, while not great, was moving along slightly better until gasoline took a huge hike (sound like 2007-2008?) and then confidence (and spending power) of the middle and lower classes fell through the floor. Scared (and broke) people don't spend.

Oh, and decades of giving our jobs freely to other countries and then buying the "cheap" shit they make........(self explanatory).
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Don't worry, PJ. Your heroes, the top .1%, will still get their 10%+ cut right off the top. When your slice is big enough, the total size of the pie isn't much of an issue. What becomes an issue is the inflation adjusted number of dollars raked off, so in bad times, the rest of us just need a healthy dose of austerity so they can get theirs, as always...

Being fabulously wealthy isn't the issue- they already are. It's becoming even more so that interests them, and they have no intention of letting anything as silly as the common welfare interfere with that.

Sacrifice? their idea of sacrifice is to throw little people into the volcano to satisfy the Gods of the sacred market.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
People can't spend because their CCs were maxed out and they were using their houses as credit cards (HELOC).

That was part of the problem too. Too much Home and Garden channel pimping "flip this house". All came crushing down and gasoline was the proverbial straw meet camel.


Well, not getting a raise (after inflation) for a decade and higher prices (gasoline related) pushed them over the edge even farther. Hell, not getting a raise during the last 3.5 years (for many people) at all, I'm surprised that it's even going forward. Obviously, the companies selling the stuff are OK with all time record profits (not sure how though).
 
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matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
Only thing I think will cure this economy is government getting out of the way, stop deficit spending, stop printing, stop easing, stop wasting money on pointless shit, stop the wars (regular and drug), cut taxes for middle class family (hell, suspend the income tax for all families for a year that make under 250k if we cut deep enough).

I can almost guarantee the economy will fix itself in 1-2 years and we will be back to normal growth if the government just stops getting in the way with spending and taxes.

We tried the liberal deficit spend / stimulus plan, now can we try this? Please?
If it doesn't work we can end it easily...
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
176
106
Solution seems pretty fucking simple to me.... the government needs to close tax loop holes and cut spending.

How are we to expect an organization run by rich guys (Dems and Repubs), most of whom have NEVER had to live within a budget, to exercise fiscal responsibility when the organization's revenue (taxes) is guaranteed to roll in no matter how much they waste?

We need to vote out all the assholes in charge and get some people in there that care about fixing our country and not playing petty political games.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Only thing I think will cure this economy is government getting out of the way, stop deficit spending, stop printing, stop easing, stop wasting money on pointless shit, stop the wars (regular and drug), cut taxes for middle class family (hell, suspend the income tax for all families for a year that make under 250k if we cut deep enough).

I can almost guarantee the economy will fix itself in 1-2 years and we will be back to normal growth if the government just stops getting in the way with spending and taxes.

We tried the liberal deficit spend / stimulus plan, now can we try this? Please?
If it doesn't work we can end it easily...

original
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
If I recall the top 10% pay almost 70% of the income taxes anyway.
Suspending the income tax for individuals that make under 125k would amount to about 400 billion in revenue. These numbers are thrown around like peanuts these days. Its really not that outrageous...

1.6 trillion+ deficits. Now that deserves a huge :D
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
176
106
stop wasting money on pointless shit, stop the wars (regular and drug)

Agreed. Bring our troops home and make drug possession and prostitution legal. The government should regulate it and tax the shit out of it. This would also allow for reduction of police forces (since so much of what they do is drug enforcement) and a large reduction of the prison population. That alone would make a pretty massive dent in our budget crisis.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
If I recall the top 10% pay almost 70% of the income taxes anyway.
Suspending the income tax for individuals that make under 125k would amount to about 400 billion in revenue. These numbers are thrown around like peanuts these days. Its really not that outrageous...

1.6 trillion+ deficits. Now that deserves a huge :D

You stated $250,000 in your first post. Regardless, now you're wanting to cut the $1.6 Trillion deficit + another $400 on top of that? So over 50% of the federal budget? Sure thing there skippy.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Forecasts for Growth Drop, Some Sharply

We are in big trouble.

Economic growth may drop to 2% which is almost nothing.

Employment numbers continue to be poor.

We seem stuck and no one has a solution to the problem (or is willing to implement a solution that might help the other side politically)

I don't think things are going to get better before 2013, after the election.
And a story like this is pretty much the end of Obama. There is no way he will be able to recover for this mess in time to win in 2012. Four years in office with 9% unemployment and 2% growth, he will be crushed Jimmy Carter style.

As for the economy: We need to give up on tax increases, give up on major spending cuts and even look at ways to stimulate the economy. Perhaps another housing credit, payroll tax relief. Let's worry about our debt problem later, right now we need to fix the economy, plus we will never be able to fix the debt problem with this economy.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43534613

Thank you Bush, Mission Accomplished

Obama is an awesome Messiah

He has done a most excellent job pissing off Republicans :thumbsup:
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
You stated $250,000 in your first post. Regardless, now you're wanting to cut the $1.6 Trillion deficit + another $400 on top of that? So over 50% of the federal budget? Sure thing there skippy.

250k joint...125k individual.

I'm not saying we cut 1.6 trillion dollars in one year either...(but we should definitely start cutting immediately)
Shoot for a balanced budget in 5 years I think is reasonable.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
250k joint...125k individual.

I'm not saying we cut 1.6 trillion dollars in one year either...(but we should definitely start cutting immediately)
Shoot for a balanced budget in 5 years I think is reasonable.

We've had one year in the last 50 with a near balanced budget. Not going to happen any time soon (other than if we completely default and can't get credit).
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
We've had one year in the last 50 with a near balanced budget. Not going to happen any time soon (other than if we completely default and can't get credit).

Well I said "shoot for"...
We don't even need to get to a 100% balanced budget per se, just something close that's reasonable and sustainable like we've had before.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,152
55,688
136
Hahaha, more electoral prognostication by Pro-Jo, the source of such amazing predictions in 2006 and 2008.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Wow, you have made a lot of progress. The main thing left is you need to support tax increases on the wealthy who have taken such an excessive share counterproductively.
Increasing taxes on the wealthy isn't going to make things better. Unless we cut taxes on the middle class as an offset.

But giving it to government to spend would be a waste. We are 'stimulating' the economy to the tune of $800 billion more than we did just 3 years ago and the economy is not improving.

We also need to drastically reduce government regulation. There is story after story about businesses complaining how OVER regulation is killing them and making it very difficult to do business.

We should also kill Obamacare since it is a major problem as businesses are worried about their future costs and are sitting back waiting instead of spending money to grow.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
We also need to drastically reduce government regulation. There is story after story about businesses complaining how OVER regulation is killing them and making it very difficult to do business.

We should also kill Obamacare since it is a major problem as businesses are worried about their future costs and are sitting back waiting instead of spending money to grow.

Businesses always have an excuse for not hiring & growing nowdays.

First it was taxes, then they got their tax cuts and then it's regulations, then Repubs eased regulations under "W" and now it's Obamacare. They're moving the goalposts further away and you proudly agree with their line of crap.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Increasing taxes on the wealthy isn't going to make things better. Unless we cut taxes on the middle class as an offset.

That might be the best ideal that you have had yet. Take the money from those that aren't spending it (cash at record levels), let those that are spending keep more of their money and they will spend it. The money they spend will end up in the hands at the top since they own most of what the rest of us are spending on. Economy improves, middle improves and overall, top improves as the money "trickles up" to them (we've already tried trickle down for decades and it isn't working worth a shit...let's give more money to those in the middle and watch it trickle up).
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Still waiting for those "job creators" to start hiring some folks. Been waiting since early 2000. Keep giving the rich a break, they need it you know. Why does the GOP hate America so much still?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Expect a horrible 2012. GOP will crash the economy for the election. They will block needed stimulus or force a default, whatever it takes to win. If they do actually win, expect a further horrible 4 years, so realistically, we are looking at 2017 before the US even has a chance of a decent recovery, and that assumes GOP will not have the power to sabotage it.