Ford Fusion Hybrid - thoughts?

[aleckz]

I think it looks brilliant. The bad luck on the patents is killing American companies, too bad they don't what to or aren't able to pay loyalties to Toyota.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Quixfire

The delay is Toyota or their lack of releasing the battery technology to third party members. Toyota owns the hybrid technology most hybrids used today. They developed it back in 1994 with the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. Toyota is willing to license the technology to Ford, GM, & Chrysler but they won't allow any other company to make the battery packs. Toyota is having trouble keeping up with demand for Prius and Honda Insight. At this point Ford is scaling down their projected Hybrid products because they know they can't bring them to market in a quantity to make an impact.

This is what I was told when I helped build six prototype Hybrid Fusions last winter for Ford at Roush Industries.

Quixfire

ford doesn't buy anything from toyota. sanyo made the batteries for the first escapes, no idea if they still make them.

Originally posted by: EvilYoda

This. Same reason why the Escape Hybrid was in such low supply last year.

Thanks Quixfire

except the whole thing is completely false. someone at roush may very well have told him that, or he may have misheard. or maybe he's confusing toyota for aisin (23% owned by toyota motor) and the transmission supply problem.

Originally posted by: aleckz
I think it looks brilliant. The bad luck on the patents is killing American companies, too bad they don't what to or aren't able to pay loyalties to Toyota.

ford isn't paying any royalties to toyota. ford gave toyota access to ford's diesel technologies in return for toyota agreeing not to sue ford if ford commercialized its in-house developed hybrid system.

 

[Quixfire]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Quixfire

The delay is Toyota or their lack of releasing the battery technology to third party members. Toyota owns the hybrid technology most hybrids used today. They developed it back in 1994 with the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. Toyota is willing to license the technology to Ford, GM, & Chrysler but they won't allow any other company to make the battery packs. Toyota is having trouble keeping up with demand for Prius and Honda Insight. At this point Ford is scaling down their projected Hybrid products because they know they can't bring them to market in a quantity to make an impact.

This is what I was told when I helped build six prototype Hybrid Fusions last winter for Ford at Roush Industries.

Quixfire

ford doesn't buy anything from toyota.

Originally posted by: EvilYoda

This. Same reason why the Escape Hybrid was in such low supply last year.

Thanks Quixfire

except the whole thing is completely false. someone at roush may very well have told him that, or he may have misheard.

It was nice of you to claim what I said as false without any proof otherwise. I know for a fact that Ford and GM license their current Hybrid driveline from Toyota. I also know for a fact Toyota owns the patent on the current Lithium-Ion battery packs used in the Prius and Insight. So if I am wrong please provide the proof or at least explain why none of the Big Three have produced large volumes of Hybrids like Toyota and Honda?

I'm asking to learn the truth so I don't make any more incorrect statements.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Quixfire

It was nice of you to claim what I said as false without any proof otherwise. I know for a fact that Ford and GM license their current Hybrid driveline from Toyota. I also know for a fact Toyota owns the patent on the current Lithium-Ion battery packs used in the Prius and Insight. So if I am wrong please provide the proof or at least explain why none of the Big Three have produced large volumes of Hybrids like Toyota and Honda?

I'm asking to learn the truth so I don't make any more incorrect statements.

ford uses NiMH batteries. the Prius uses NiMH batteries. the batteries used in the ford were made by samsung, who is a battery giant and would have no problem supplying ford with all its needs.

ford is in a cross licensing agreement with toyota because there are probably only a couple of ways to make a battery powered parallel single-mode full hybrid and once ford design its system they figured that it was too close for comfort to toyota's.

GM's hybrid system is nothing at all like toyota's and is the result of a joint venture with mercedes, chrysler, and bmw.

this is all readily available through googling.

the big 3 haven't been making tons of hybrids for the same reason nissan hasn't been: they weren't profitable enough. nissan, in fact, simply buys the whole system from toyota for its limited hybrid sales. further, they thought hybrids wouldn't sell because, after all, who would pay an extra $5000 right now to get $4000 worth of gas savings over the next decade?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Quix,

I have also heard that Ford does license some of their hybrid technology from Toyota, but that doesn't mean they are buying the parts from Toyota. It just means that they are paying royalties on the parts that they produce in-house. (Or, as ElFenix suggested, the "royalties" may not be in money, but in a trade of licenses to give Toyota license to some of Ford's diesel technology.)

ZV

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: Quixfire
It was nice of you to claim what I said as false without any proof otherwise. I know for a fact that Ford and GM license their current Hybrid driveline from Toyota. I also know for a fact Toyota owns the patent on the current Lithium-Ion battery packs used in the Prius and Insight. So if I am wrong please provide the proof or at least explain why none of the Big Three have produced large volumes of Hybrids like Toyota and Honda?

I'm asking to learn the truth so I don't make any more incorrect statements.

I don't want to get too involved this argument, but just a couple observations.

The battery packs in the Prius and Insight are nickle metal hydride, not lithium ion. Also, what GM vehicles use a Toyota sourced/licensed hybrid drivetrain. They have exactly 0 dual-mode hybrid passenger cars on the market, like the Prius. The rest are "mild" hybrids which don't share much in common with Toyotas. Their only dual-mode drivetrain was a clean-sheet design developed with (then) Diamler-Chrysler used in their SUV's.

 

[lurk3r]

Originally posted by: evident
fusion is a promising american car, but still needs work. a hybrid is always welcome

Built in Mexico. Perfect example of big 3 bullying pushing your jobs out of the country. Get a real american car, an accord or an altima.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: lurk3r

Originally posted by: evident
fusion is a promising american car, but still needs work. a hybrid is always welcome

Built in Mexico. Perfect example of big 3 bullying pushing your jobs out of the country. Get a real american car, an accord or an altima.

engineered in japan and profited in japan and france. i'll take thousands of high paying engineering jobs over thousands of low-wage factory workers.




edit: updated fusion V6 makes 260 hp on e85. also has a new innovative way to do camshaft phasing that doesn't increase parasitic loses like the usual oil pressure method.

 

[EvilYoda]

Yeah, I said what I said because I didn't think it was necessary to get into details...yes, Ford "pays" royalties to Toyota due to the fact that after all of their independent engineering, the outcome was so similar to Toyota's that it'd be easier to come to an agreement early on instead of dealing with litigation down the road. Japanese companies make the batteries and their allegiances lie with Japanese companies first and everyone else second. The Fusion Hybrid was slated to come out last year (or at least be announced), but that was originally planned when hopes were that battery production/sourcing would increase, which didn't happen.

I don't know who makes what right now, since I no longer have to worry about it. I will see my former Ford teammates at the LA Auto Show though, that'll be nice.

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: lurk3r

Originally posted by: evident
fusion is a promising american car, but still needs work. a hybrid is always welcome

Built in Mexico. Perfect example of big 3 bullying pushing your jobs out of the country. Get a real american car, an accord or an altima.

engineered in japan and profited in japan and france. i'll take thousands of high paying engineering jobs over thousands of low-wage factory workers.




edit: updated fusion V6 makes 260 hp on e85. also has a new innovative way to do camshaft phasing that doesn't increase parasitic loses like the usual oil pressure method.

What is camshaft phasing? Never heard of it but I'm a car noob.