Ford asks employees to "urge Congress to act".

[dahunan]

tell the scums who keep getting bonuses to give the money back

tell the engineers and profiteers to build cars as nice as camrys THAT LAST too

 

[chess9]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...4brooks.html?th&emc=th

Fairly insightful column on the waste that comprises the Big Three.

-Robert

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Budmantom
The Democratic party works for the unions and the unions work for the Democratic party, we will see more and more of these types of policies.


Here is what I see happening the Dem's will bail out the big 3 and put out more legislation regarding cafe standards and "green" rules and regulations that will bankrupt the big 3 after that they will need to"fix" the problem(that they created again) by bailing them out again, costing us the tax payers more and more money.

and still saving the jobs of 3 million people. The 50 billion dollar plan makes sense if these people pay more than 1600$ in tax, (break even) if they pay more the government comes out ahead. If you include the cost of unemployment, the government saves money by bailing these guys out. This is why you will see a bailout, because government beancounters go "if we don't bail them out for X amount it will cost us Y amount".

The solution to money problems is not money.

If we bail them out it will only prolong the problem it will not be a solution, last quarter Gm & Ford lost $5 billion.

If they go bankrupt and restructure they may be able to do away with the unions and get rid of the legacy costs, they will have to make jobs cuts but they can comeback leaner and meaner.

The problem has been pointed out before that auto makers don't come out of bankruptcy, they tend to just die. Why would consumers buy cars from a bankrupt auto company when they can just go across the street to a solvent one and not have to worry about anything? They won't.

Chrysler's problems are probably terminal. Ford and GM could be saved by bridging the gap to 2010 when they get to shed a boatload of legacy expenses, been able to retool factories, and cut more unneeded capacity.

In addition, remember that these companies are broke. Where will the money come from for a Bankruptcy? Who is going to lend them money to allow them to do the restructuring and downsizing? Who has the money to lend to them?

Anyone who says that Bankruptcy is their best option has not put any thought into their statement. But thoughtless statements are in abundance here.

The loans are being made, end of story. Get used to it, get happy with it - if possible.

The terms are all that's left to discuss. I've never subscribed to the theory that the same people that got you into trouble can get you out of trouble. Ain't gonna happen. I'd like to see major management shakeups and crippling of the powers of the unions. The entire BOD, needs to be wiped out. I'm not sure that can even be done except by the stockholders. Unless these changes are made, there will be no hope for their survival.

A change in management is a huge issue. It's rare to see top level management people move to totally different sectors of business and do well. It's actually unheard of in the automotive industry. It hasn't worked yet. So, who to fill the spots?

I'd love to see what a guy like Wagner would do if given the option of 'here's the money but only if you step down'.

As someone else said, the Dem's will probably try to push some green initiative as part of the loan package. I'm convinced that they're convinced that the auto companies have some magic contraption they've locked away in the safe that will greatly increase mileage and reduce emissions. Ridiculous.

There's another scenario too. A much more disturbing one. A new reality that is starting to make the headlines with more regularity. Our next crisis is Credit Card debt. No surprise there! What other crises are lurking that have not been brought to light yet?

I think we're in far, far more trouble than we the people know.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: boomerang
There's another scenario too. A much more disturbing one. A new reality that is starting to make the headlines with more regularity. Our next crisis is Credit Card debt.

CC debt has grown a lot, even in the last year.From 2006 it was $800B total, so it's probably around $1T or close to it now.

Article from today:

Over the past decade, American households have piled on $8 trillion in debt, an increase of 137 percent, twice the gain seen in the size of the economy. At $14 trillion, the debt load is now roughly equal to the entire economy's annual output.

Much of the increase comes from home mortgages, which have expanded by $6 trillion since 1998, but it also reflects higher balances on credit cards and auto loans.

Credit card debt grew at a modest 1.2 percent annual rate in September to $971.4 billion

Hey, wow I was close with that $1T estimate

Interesting bits in there on savings rates, too.

The economy is a macro version of a college grad who got out of school and with $32k/year income bought a nice new car, tv, and starting maxing out his card, then when he turned 28 realized he was heading down the toilet financially and spent the next four years coming to Jesus via a six year old civic and brownbag lunches until he paid it off.

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: boomerang
There's another scenario too. A much more disturbing one. A new reality that is starting to make the headlines with more regularity. Our next crisis is Credit Card debt.

CC debt has grown a lot, even in the last year.From 2006 it was $800B total, so it's probably around $1T or close to it now.

Article from today:

Over the past decade, American households have piled on $8 trillion in debt, an increase of 137 percent, twice the gain seen in the size of the economy. At $14 trillion, the debt load is now roughly equal to the entire economy's annual output.

Much of the increase comes from home mortgages, which have expanded by $6 trillion since 1998, but it also reflects higher balances on credit cards and auto loans.

Credit card debt grew at a modest 1.2 percent annual rate in September to $971.4 billion

Hey, wow I was close with that $1T estimate

Interesting bits in there on savings rates, too.

The economy is a macro version of a college grad who got out of school and with $32k/year income bought a nice new car, tv, and starting maxing out his card, then when he turned 28 realized he was heading down the toilet financially and spent the next four years coming to Jesus via a six year old civic and brownbag lunches until he paid it off.

You know we're in trouble when the government has to borrow money to convince banks to lend to us so that we can keep building debt.

An economy fueled mainly by consumption collapses when we can no longer redistribute wealth from the future to the present.

 

[ChunkiMunki]

Originally posted by: chess9
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...4brooks.html?th&emc=th

Fairly insightful column on the waste that comprises the Big Three.

-Robert

good op-ed piece, and i agree. let them make it on their own.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The economy is a macro version of a college grad who got out of school and with $32k/year income bought a nice new car, tv, and starting maxing out his card, then when he turned 28 realized he was heading down the toilet financially and spent the next four years coming to Jesus via a six year old civic and brownbag lunches until he paid it off.

Your analogy's fine except for the last part - instead of "coming to Jesus" and living frugally, the grad decided the mess was all someone else's fault for enticing him/her into foolish behavior, and is demanding a gov't bailout (using borrowed money, since the Treasury's bare) to continue living the good life.

In all the coverage I've seen of the economic meltdown/foreclosure mess/etc., I've seen almost no one admit they just plain made a dumb choice buying a house they couldn't afford, and don't deserve to be bailed out.

 

[owensdj]

Here's a plan guaranteed to get the US auto makers back on track. Close all of the factories in Michigan and move them all to South Carolina. Anyone who wants to work at the hourly rate set by the factory owners can do so with no union trying to fix the price for labor.

All of those foreign auto makers who set up in Southern states like BMW in South Carolina have had no problems making a profit and are actually expanding their operations at the same time the "Big Three" are begging for handouts.

 

[Pepsei]

let everything fail and the market correct itself. we can't afford to feed the bottomless pit.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: BigDH01

Originally posted by: Stunt

If you want socialized medicine yes...but you might want to look at the corporate tax rates. American companies pay the highest tax rate in the world.

Remember politicians are elected by people and they refuse to pay higher income tax; the money has to come from somewhere.

American companies aren't as burdened as you think.

I've been arguing this same point with others that think that the tax rate is the tax paid. the big argument always seem to center around Ireland's 13% rate with no acknowledgment of deductions or other breaks/credits.

Apparently there is some disconnect whether via an inability to see or understand logic/reason/simple math or a cognitive dissonance.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki

Originally posted by: chess9
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...4brooks.html?th&emc=th

Fairly insightful column on the waste that comprises the Big Three.

-Robert

good op-ed piece, and i agree. let them make it on their own.

I agree, it is a good piece. I don't think the people who think we should keep bailing them out have given much thought to this.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki

Originally posted by: chess9
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...4brooks.html?th&emc=th

Fairly insightful column on the waste that comprises the Big Three.

-Robert

good op-ed piece, and i agree. let them make it on their own.

I agree, it is a good piece. I don't think the people who think we should keep bailing them out have given much thought to this.

Am I dreaming or is this actually posted in NYT?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki

Originally posted by: chess9
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11...4brooks.html?th&emc=th

Fairly insightful column on the waste that comprises the Big Three.

-Robert

good op-ed piece, and i agree. let them make it on their own.

I agree, it is a good piece. I don't think the people who think we should keep bailing them out have given much thought to this.

Am I dreaming or is this actually posted in NYT?

It's Brooks and an opinion piece. Every once in a while they let one of these get printed...

 

[dyna]

In reality, the government will once gain bailout another failing company. In 2 to 3 yrs they will turn a profit, not pay a dime back, cater to all union wants and then several years after that sink into deep red ink again.

If the government does bailout Ford they better get free cars/trucks for the next century.

 

[ScottMac]

In the way of predictions, I see it this way:
The Dems will go with the unions and try to put through another bailout (that is independent of the 700 B for the financials), the Republicans will (successfully) do everything they can to stop it, the big three enter bankruptcy and bust (cripple, reduce ...) the unions' roles. Then they restructure, and re-enter the market in a year with more competitive vehicles.