[Forbes] AMD Is Wrong About 'The Witcher 3' And Nvidia's HairWorks

[maddie]

I'm going to offer an uninformed view on why nVidia focused on strong x64 performance: To offer more quality so there are less under sampling, cracking, aliasing, shimmering artifacts. Be gentle: I don't know.

Well that cracked me up.

 

[xthetenth]

Maxwell: 26% hit
GCN: 42% hit
Kepler: 26% hit

Huh. It's weird, but Kepler cards' massive underperformance without Hairworks and GCN cards' massive underperformance when it's turned on bring them really close together. 290 and 780 perform roughly close together these days, right?

Also minima:
Maxwell: 55%
GCN: 66%
Kepler: 61%

Yikes, that's a huge cut.

Note: percentages calculated as the percent of non-hairworks performance.

 

[amenx]

I entered this thread with no judgment. Just wanted to hear both sides of the argument before forming an opinion. I mostly favor Nvidia hardware and may continue to do so. But its become obvious for me that gameworks was designed first and foremost to give NV an edge over AMD (with nice graphics for their customers as an afterthought). And that seems to include using code that unnecessarily hampers performance for AMD (with possible kepler collateral damage for time being). Its purely a business practice that seeks to gain the upper hand for NV by hook or by crook. I think the main point in keeping it proprietary, was to lock AMD and game devs from improving it. I have an uneasy feeling that Nvidia can improve the code greatly for both their hardware and AMDs, but would prefer it to remain in a lesser state just to give them that extra edge in benchmarks.

Personally dont care much. Not as emotionally invested as others may be. I recall being a happy gamer with discete cards that are inferior to todays IGPs. If both Nvidia and AMD went out of business, I have a feeling that PC gaming wouldnt suffer that much. Game devs could just focus on IGPs, with little or no conflicting interests. People would just dial down the effects and focus on the gameplay. Hell, I may be even happier for it.. no more HW expenses, no more bulky GPUs crammed into MB, no more frenzied rants in forums over which side sucks / is better than the other.

 

[Attic]

Amen,

They repeat it over and over so many times they hope it becomes true.

:whiste:

980 Hairwork off 76fps vs hairwork on 56fps
76-56=20fps
-26.3% impact


780 HW Off 49fps HW on 36fps
49-36=13
-26.5% impact


The performance issues for kepler is not Hair(game)works in the witcher 3.

I post this, others have posted similar results yet this will continue on and be ignored. I guess just doesnt matter anymore, people just say whatever over and over. Valid or not, they dont care

Wrong.

Based on your numbers:

HW on vs off for the 980, the 980 remains playable at 1080P.

HW on vs off for the 780, the 780 is no longer playable at 1080P.

40FPS or greater considered minimum for enjoyable gameplay. This should not be considered a stretch, generally most gamers want >40fps. Let's also not miss the significance of 1080P as a basis for resolution and performance for many gamers. At this resolution, hairworks breaks the 780 (kepler). That's big, it's why folks are talking about it.

HW as implemented by nVidia did cripple Kepler performance in TW3, dragging a 780 down below 40fps at 1080P. And it did so for nearly immeasurable visual benefit were the tessellation simply turned down to a reasonable level. nVidia knew these numbers and performance delta's and figures, the question is why did nVidia implement Hairworks in this manner? There are not many, let alone one, good reason for gamers for hairworks to be put in this way. However, for nVidia, hairworks may trick some folks into buying a new nVidia GPU (The obvious goal nVidia has for it's hairworks implementation).

This is the core of the dillema for gamers vs Gameworks from Nvidia. Is nVIdia intentionally harming many gamers experience in games by putting in Gameworks blackbox code into big title games in order to try and sell more GPU's?

Yes.

I'm not saying this is the end of the world, just pointing out the obvious. You can always turn off hairworks, obviously, but folks buying 780's or other 400-500 dollar cards are not going to be happy when these games are played by nVIdia Gameworks shenanigans where the implementation effectively disables their ability to turn on new highly touted and marketed features in AAA games at the most popular resolution being used (1080P) and above.

 

[tential]

I entered this thread with no judgment. Just wanted to hear both sides of the argument before forming an opinion. I mostly favor Nvidia hardware and may continue to do so. But its become obvious for me that gameworks was designed first and foremost to give NV an edge over AMD (with nice graphics for their customers as an afterthought). And that seems to include using code that unnecessarily hampers performance for AMD (with possible kepler collateral damage for time being). Its purely a business practice that seeks to gain the upper hand for NV by hook or by crook. I think the main point in keeping it proprietary, was to lock AMD and game devs from improving it. I have an uneasy feeling that Nvidia can improve the code greatly for both their hardware and AMDs, but would prefer it to remain in a lesser state just to give them that extra edge in benchmarks.

Personally dont care much. Not as emotionally invested as others may be. I recall being a happy gamer with discete cards that are inferior to todays IGPs. If both Nvidia and AMD went out of business, I have a feeling that PC gaming wouldnt suffer that much. Game devs could just focus on IGPs, with little or no conflicting interests. People would just dial down the effects and focus on the gameplay. Hell, I may be even happier for it.. no more HW expenses, no more bulky GPUs crammed into MB, no more frenzied rants in forums over which side sucks / is better than the other.

I think it's also to push their high end cards. You need a 500+ nvidia expenditure to run their proprietary additions to games and it has to be the latest architecture. I think it's extremely poor when we see companies use shady business practices to push their high end cards. I'm done with nvidia for the time being because I don't want to support poor practices. The amd discount for me currently is worth waiting for optimal drivers/updates for the games that need it

 

[x3sphere]

Wrong.

Based on your numbers:

HW on vs off for the 980, the 980 remains playable at 1080P.

HW on vs off for the 780, the 780 is no longer playable at 1080P.

40FPS or greater considered minimum for enjoyable gameplay. This should not be considered a stretch, generally most gamers want >40fps. Let's also not miss the significance of 1080P as a basis for resolution and performance for many gamers. At this resolution, hairworks breaks the 780 (kepler). That's big, it's why folks are talking about it.

HW as implemented by nVidia did cripple Kepler performance in TW3, dragging a 780 down below 40fps at 1080P. And it did so for nearly immeasurable visual benefit were the tessellation simply turned down to a reasonable level. nVidia knew these numbers and performance delta's and figures, the question is why did nVidia implement Hairworks in this manner? There are not many, let alone one, good reason for gamers for hairworks to be put in this way. However, for nVidia, hairworks may trick some folks into buying a new nVidia GPU (The obvious goal nVidia has for it's hairworks implementation).

This is the core of the dillema for gamers vs Gameworks from Nvidia. Is nVIdia intentionally harming many gamers experience in games by putting in Gameworks blackbox code into big title games in order to try and sell more GPU's?

Yes.

I'm not saying this is the end of the world, just pointing out the obvious. You can always turn off hairworks, obviously, but folks buying 780's or other 400-500 dollar cards are not going to be happy when these games are played by nVIdia Gamewords they disables their ability to turn on new highly touted and marketed features in AAA games.

You are missing the fact that if NV fixed whatever was making the base performance so poor in TW3 it would still be playable with HairWorks enabled on a 780.

 

[Kenmitch]

What does this have to do with anything?

Again, instead of actually discussing the issue people like to just link to something else vaguely related that seems to support their point to cloud the issue.



All the pictures I looked at showed no difference. What on earth are you even talking about? As has been said: this is subpixel differences which cannot be viewed. And it doesn't even effect the clothing...?

And the fact that this is FORCED on all users is even worse.

I think I will just paste this TBH:
"Yea just keep repeating this while completely ignoring everyone's point that Hairworks is using heavy tessellation for no IQ improvement.
Answer this one question: What's the point of severely hampering performance on all hardware by using x64 tessellation when it offers no improvement over x16?"

If you read what I said and view the images(8x,16x64x) you'll see what I'm talking about. Look at left shoulder and compare the detail 64x looks best. More realistic, bumpy, etc.

I have a 970 but didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

64x is overkill any way you look at it. If you read my post again you'll see I'm really making fun of it in a round a biut way.

 

[Hitman928]

http://cdn4.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/witcher3-2015-05-21-03-26-09-28.bmp

 

[Kenmitch]

In gameplay a person would be hard pressed to see any visual difference between the above images.

In screenshots 64x looks best. 1st glance very similar. Looking closer there is more detail in 64x although it's subtle. Look at the shoulder, weapons. They look similar but more detail with 64x.

Worth the performance hit....Nope.

As a NVIDIA user I'd want a in game slider or option in control panel to force 16x.

 

[SPBHM]

it would be nice to see the comparison during cut-scenes

 

[Stormflux]

In gameplay a person would be hard pressed to see any visual difference between the above images.

In screenshots 64x looks best. 1st glance very similar. Looking closer there is more detail in 64x although it's subtle. Look at the shoulder, weapons. They look similar but more detail with 64x.

Worth the performance hit....Nope.

As a NVIDIA user I'd want a in game slider or option in control panel to force 16x.

Are they Tessellating Geralt or the weapons? Horrible low res texture aside, I see same bump shading throughout, granted slightly different angle.

The big things that would make me suspect that they actually are not tessellating Geralt is the faceting on the mid back. And the same seam between the shoulder and the neck.

If they were, the facet, made more pronounced by the texture on his back would not appear at all....

Funny thing is with 64x tessellation, you can see obvious facets in Geralts hair that are not there in the 16x... Reversed labels?

Edit: The first big white clump strand of hair 2cm the top of his head.

 

[Kenmitch]

Are they Tessellating Geralt or the weapons? Horrible low res texture aside, I see same bump shading throughout, granted slightly different angle.

The big things that would make me suspect that they actually are not tessellating Geralt is the faceting on the mid back. And the same seam between the shoulder and the neck.

If they were, the facet, made more pronounced by the texture on his back would not appear at all....

Funny thing is with 64x tessellation, you can see obvious facets in Geralts hair that are not there in the 16x... Reversed labels?

Edit: The first big white clump strand of hair 2cm the top of his head.

Not sure but kind if looks like it....One has to be pretty anal to see it that's for sure.

 

[bowler484]

AMD just released a new beta driver.

Performance Improvements for the following :
The Witcher 3 - Wild Hunt : Up to 10% performance increase on single GPU Radeon R9 and R7 Series graphics products
Project Cars - Up to 17% performance increase on single GPU Radeon R9 and R7 Series graphics products

Once again, two games that AMD claimed to be crippled and unable to optimize for suddenly have improvements when the effort is made to do so.

Wake up guys. Stop being pawns in AMD's Gameworks war. They are doing it solely to stop the marketshare bleeding because product isn't going to do it.

 

[RaulF]

AMD just released a new beta driver.



Once again, two games that AMD claimed to be crippled and unable to optimize for suddenly have improvements when the effort is made to do so.

Wake up guys. Stop being pawns in AMD's Gameworks war. They are doing it solely to stop the marketshare bleeding because product isn't going to do it.

So nvidias big performance hit from hair works is a myth?

Plenty of nvidias users that are not happy with it.

 

[bowler484]

So nvidias big performance hit from hair works is a myth?

Plenty of nvidias users that are not happy with it.

Hairworks is garbage and nobody said the performance hit was a myth.

The point is AMD just optimized two more games that they claimed they were crippled and unable to optimize for.

 

[Stormflux]

Not sure but kind if looks like it....One has to be pretty anal to see it that's for sure.

Agreed.:thumbsup:

AMD just released a new beta driver.



Once again, two games that AMD claimed to be crippled and unable to optimize for suddenly have improvements when the effort is made to do so.

Wake up guys. Stop being pawns in AMD's Gameworks war. They are doing it solely to stop the marketshare bleeding because product isn't going to do it.

People may confuse the issue sure, but even CDProjektRED said they can't optimize it. For PCars, it's long been known that driver overhead was a huge suspect.

And in terms of Optimization it's HOW and EASE of doing it. Reverse engineering, unit testing against binary blobs, takes A LOT more effort than being able to view source code.

 

[monstercameron]

AMD just released a new beta driver.



Once again, two games that AMD claimed to be crippled and unable to optimize for suddenly have improvements when the effort is made to do so.

Wake up guys. Stop being pawns in AMD's Gameworks war. They are doing it solely to stop the marketshare bleeding because product isn't going to do it.

When have they sad they were unable to optimize sans source?

 

[chimaxi83]

AMD just released a new beta driver.



Once again, two games that AMD claimed to be crippled and unable to optimize for suddenly have improvements when the effort is made to do so.

Wake up guys. Stop being pawns in AMD's Gameworks war. They are doing it solely to stop the marketshare bleeding because product isn't going to do it.

What benefit do you get from this blind, asinine, uneducated support of GameWorks? I guess if you pull the wool far enough over your eyes, you'd miss the crap that GameWorks does to any game it touches.

 

[maddie]

AMD just released a new beta driver.



Once again, two games that AMD claimed to be crippled and unable to optimize for suddenly have improvements when the effort is made to do so.

Wake up guys. Stop being pawns in AMD's Gameworks war. They are doing it solely to stop the marketshare bleeding because product isn't going to do it.

I think you might be confused and not remembering clearly. No one ever said that.

I think they said that they can't optimize it by having a new driver on game release, not that it was totally impossible. A lot of criticism by gamers is that you have to wait for AMD to release specific fixes. Being unable to see the actual source and how its being used means that they have to wait and then analyse causing delays.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

All of this gets culled from the pipeline.



Build better hardware. Hardware which is better suited for geometry processing.

Here is a bit from the HAWX2 complain:

http://techreport.com/review/19934/nvidia-geforce-gtx-580-graphics-processor/8

AMD complained about something which wasnt existent. nVidia's hardware was and is just "superior" when it comes to geometry processing.

The same with Crysis 2. The performance impact of tessellation was around 18% on Fermi: http://www.hardware.fr/articles/838-7/influence-tessellation-son-niveau.html

On the other hand the performance impact of Forward+ in Dirt:Showdown was 58% on Kepler:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/869-14/benchmark-dirt-showdown.html

How is this okay? This is even a bigger performance impact than people have with Hairworks in The Witcher 3. :|

Does it get culled from the frame where you are looking? Or only at the sides and behind your viewpoint?

Talking about occlusion culling right?

 

[Headfoot]

The point is AMD just optimized two more games that they claimed they were crippled and unable to optimize for.

Show me exactly where AMD ever claimed that. Hint: you can't, because it doesn't exist.

 

[Enigmoid]

Does it get culled from the frame where you are looking? Or only at the sides and behind your viewpoint?

Talking about occlusion culling right?

The ocean is only there when you enter wireframe mode. Otherwise its completely culled from the picture. Go look at the cryengine forums and see what the game engine devs said. They also said the extent of tessellated surfaces is magnified in wireframe mode.

Wireframe mode removes ALL tesselation culling. Tesselated surfaces are tesselated as they would appear if you were right in front of them.

http://www.cryengine.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=355&t=80565&hilit=tessellation+too+much

Look at the cryengine dev Adam's posts.

 

[96Firebird]

Show me exactly where AMD ever claimed that. Hint: you can't, because it doesn't exist.

You're right, AMD never claimed such a thing.

People on this forum, however, thought it up and ran with it.

I'd like to see benchmarks to see how much gain was had in Project CARS.

 

[RaulF]

Hairworks is garbage and nobody said the performance hit was a myth.



The point is AMD just optimized two more games that they claimed they were crippled and unable to optimize for.

I thought it was the game developer that said that hair works could not be optimize for amd hardware.

And the games were cripple until they remodeled the driver to work better with said game.

Nvidia injecting its specific code with no regards for anyone else is the problem. Have you not read what they do to hurt performance on amd cards, even at the cost of loosing some performance in their end.

 

[showb1z]

Look at the shoulder, weapons. They look similar but more detail with 64x.

Worth the performance hit....Nope.

As a NVIDIA user I'd want a in game slider or option in control panel to force 16x.

I think you're seeing things, the x64 tesselation is only for Hairworks.

Amen,

They repeat it over and over so many times they hope it becomes true.

:whiste:

980 Hairwork off 76fps vs hairwork on 56fps
76-56=20fps
-26.3% impact


780 HW Off 49fps HW on 36fps
49-36=13
-26.5% impact


The performance issues for kepler is not Hair(game)works in the witcher 3.

I post this, others have posted similar results yet this will continue on and be ignored. I guess just doesnt matter anymore, people just say whatever over and over. Valid or not, they dont care

No, you're ignoring the real question here. This is not about the difference in performance penalty on Maxwell, Kepler and GCN.
Why is it a good thing to cut the average fps on Kepler/Maxwell by 26% and the minimums by 55-60% for no IQ gain? Why do people defend Nvidia flushing so much performance down the drain on all hardware for absolutely no reason?