[Forbes] AMD Is Wrong About 'The Witcher 3' And Nvidia's HairWorks

[SirPauly]

I agree, credit goes to AMD here and nVidia needed a new architecture to remain competitive, imho.

 

[xthetenth]

Why would (or perhaps should they) care about PC users in general? They care about, and have an obligation (the kepler degradation is another issue) toward their own customers but what and why are they obligated to do for AMD and Intel users?

They should probably care about ecosystem health. Past that, the only reason they have to care about AMD and Intel users (and NV users uninterested in paying monopoly prices) is purchasing decisions those customers make.

I feel this question needs to be answered first before any meaningful discussion can be made.

The answer is not: "Because its good for PC gaming." Nvidia is a business run by shareholders whom they have an obligation to turn a profit for. People are confusing what they want with Nvidia is obligated to give them (entitlement generation).

People are also confusing what's good for NV for what they should support. Companies are not your friend and they are not your team. It would be harmful for PC gaming to become Nvidia gaming.

Look at apple for instance. Want Final Cut, aperture, iphoto or an up-to-date safari (or numerous other applications)? Buy a mac. Apple's not going to give your their software, their work for free. If you want that software the only alternative is to buy a mac. Of course this negatively impacts computing in general but I don't see a huge fuss about this kind of thing. Are they obligated to provide windows and linux versions of their propitiatory software to improve professional photo and video editing?

Want video editing capability? Buy a Mac and Final Cut. Or buy Sony Vegas. Or Adobe Premiere. Those capabilities are not locked to the Mac platform even if a single software suite is. It's a fundamental misunderstanding to compare gaming to markets with fungible products without recognizing that distinction. If you want the Witcher, you buy the Witcher. Period. There's no alternative.

That's an extreme case and the point could be made that there is no third party that is ultimately selling the goods. Nvidia however, creates and licenses its closed libraries who ultimately have the choice about integrating them into their own software (knowing the strengths and limitations).

The difference between Mantle and Gameworks must also be discussed. Mantle is only available to developers who sign up and are approved by AMD. I am assuming there are a lot of NDA's involved with beta mantle access and I do not know the minutiae. Its similar to gameworks in that its closed and limited to AMD gpus (perhaps they relented and let intel in - and nvidia if nvidia wanted in). Lets not forget the 'openness' of mantle which was developed and v1.0 created without any input from intel (who were told "go away") to work solely on AMD GPUs. If AMD was so concerned about openness why tell intel to buzz off when intel inquired about mantle details (mantle was already in several games at the point so a lot of the groundwork must have already been done - surely they could have worked with intel).

http://developer.amd.com/mantle/

The presence of a Mantle codepath does not materially damage the DX codepath. There aren't any sloppily implemented effects or severe slowdowns because Mantle support exists. In fact, the Mantle and DX versions are basically fungible. (Also look what's become of Mantle.)

If you think one's petty money going elsewhere means taking control of a situation, you are in for a rude awakening.

Since you clearly don't believe in market capitalism, what controls do you propose for the market to prevent abusive behavior?

Lol @ this carebear attitude of folks.NV developed GW to have value add for their customers which they did, it is absolutely irrelevant how good/bad AMD runs it.Did we ever ask AMD how good NV cards run mantel? NV only have to fix the performance of the Kepler cards end of story.

No, we asked how NV cards ran the games with mantle support. When it turned out they ran them just fine with DX, that is when nobody cared because the existence of Mantle wasn't in lieu of an implementation that would work well for NV cards, it coexisted with such an implementation. It's galling that such a fundamental difference has to be explained umpteen times.

Also please elaborate on carebear. I've got this really great mental image of hardcore PvP consumerism, but I don't really think you're holding up EVE style shenanigans as a positive example.

 

[boozzer]

Why are you trying to pin the uproar from gameworks solely on AMD "proponents." Nvidia proponents should should be just as pissed about gameworks. It's crippling year old flagship nvidia cards as well. For no perceptible increase in image quality.

Even the gtx980 and 970 would run these games much better if they decided to find a sweet spot where image quality is the same, but the excessive overuse of tesselation and other things is unnecessary.

I think most of use understand why you feel the need to defend them, but please be a little more realistic about what you are stating. It's not just AMD customers who should be mad about gameworks in it's current implementation.

why are you taking him seriously? he basically just called everyone who criticized GW an amd fanboy. you really should not bother replying to him.

 

[chimaxi83]

Forbes knows what's up with gaming & technology, obviously.


Do even Nvidia owners use HairWorks? I have a 970 and I don't because Hairworks On = an FPS loss greater than AA, Sharpening, Bloom, Blur, higher textures, etc. all combined. And I have a 970...so really, who's even using it?

Yes, I'm using it. Creature fur just looks like ass without it, which was probably intentional.

why are you taking him seriously? he basically just called everyone who criticized GW an amd fanboy. you really should not bother replying to him.

Focus group member, is anyone surprised? Some of these people will defend and promote anything Nvidia does.

 

[Keysplayr]

why are you taking him seriously? he basically just called everyone who criticized GW an amd fanboy. you really should not bother replying to him.

No. I didn't. And nobody wants to answer the question because It's a very touchy question. Its not a trick question. There is not one answer that i am looking for for anyone to be correct. I want to see just how skewed peoples expectations are and just how strong the sense of entitlement can get. From what I've seen so far, there isnt a limit. People are so afraid of truth that they only answer questions with bogus questions tryng to avoid exposing any beloved patriot in the armor.
Still waiting for a brave one.

Infraction issued for inflammatory language.
-- stahlhart

 

[Erenhardt]

But let's be real, the backlash of something that major would be hilarious. Which is exactly why I pointed out the vast differences of your original comparisons. Some things are just too out there to happen, which is why arguing about it is futile.

So it is fine when they cripple the smaller part of the market? As long as it doesn't hit the big dogs, it is ok?

Little jabs under the belt are allowed as long as it is not our balls that got hit?

 

[Keysplayr]

So it is fine when they cripple the smaller part of the market? As long as it doesn't hit the big dogs, it is ok?

Little jabs under the belt are allowed as long as it is not our balls that got hit?

The outrage is a little much.
So, what should be done?

 

[maddie]

No. I didn't. And nobody wants to answer the question because It's a very touchy question. Its not a trick question. There is not one answer that i am looking for for anyone to be correct. I want to see just how skewed peoples expectations are and just how strong the sense of entitlement can get. From what I've seen so far, there isnt a limit. People are so afraid of truth that they only answer questions with bogus questions tryng to avoid exposing any beloved patriot in the armor.
Still waiting for a brave one.

You claim no one is answering your question but several have, just not to your satisfaction.

Thankfully the average poster here is above average IQ.

Keep trying .

 

[xthetenth]

No. I didn't. And nobody wants to answer the question because It's a very touchy question. Its not a trick question. There is not one answer that i am looking for for anyone to be correct. I want to see just how skewed peoples expectations are and just how strong the sense of entitlement can get. From what I've seen so far, there isnt a limit. People are so afraid of truth that they only answer questions with bogus questions tryng to avoid exposing any beloved patriot in the armor.
Still waiting for a brave one.

For starters I want NV to prove with actions that failing to sell my 970 by the time Pascal cards drop wouldn't be as bad a decision as getting an 8800 GT was a good one. I want NV to prove with actions that buying another NV card wouldn't be contributing financially to an overall loss in quality of the PC gaming experience.

Then again, I'm not an AMD supporter, I don't even remember what the ATI card I used was that I replaced with a 6800 GT all the way back before I started buying NV cards. I'm just very angry with NV, don't trust them, and unless something massive happens am going to break my six card streak.

Does that answer your question?

 

[SirPauly]

No, we asked how NV cards ran the games with mantle support. When it turned out they ran them just fine with DX, that is when nobody cared because the existence of Mantle wasn't in lieu of an implementation that would work well for NV cards, it coexisted with such an implementation. It's galling that such a fundamental difference has to be explained umpteen times.

This is where I get confused: Witcher 3 runs fine with Radeon hardware. I could see your point if HairWorks was essential and needed; it's a fidelity option that can be enabled or disabled.

 

[Erenhardt]

The outrage is a little much.
So, what should be done?

Heads should roll... Someone who thought it was a good idea to unofficially cut the support (or even worse - do a "contra-optimizations") for the last gen GPUs should take the responsibility.

The issue should be brought to the daylight and make every possible affected gamer aware of the problem and how their premium product aged like a no-name Chinese crap from alibaba.

I hope the reviews site will make sure it doesn't go unnoticed and will cover this issue at least as much as FCAT and framepacing investiagions.

I hope this bites right thou the fat $ nv ass is covered in straight to the meat. I hope the backlash will make the opposite impact to investors and stockholders pocket, than what nv thought it would. I would like to see them change their policies to more gamers friendly and deliver better products on they technical level, and not try to compensate with software manipulation.

Again, it is nv backstabing their own userbase more than anyone else. AMD at least have a "hack" to run the game way better than nv users.

 

[ocre]

How can we have a meaningful conversation when people are saying stuff like this,

Yes, I'm using it. Creature fur just looks like ass without it, which was probably intentional.

Seriously?

Clearly, you have no idea how any of this really works. But don't feel bad, you are far from alone. Most people on these kind of threads fail in their grasp.

There is so much misinformation going around that it surprises me how a tech forum is reduced to such a level.

 

[SirPauly]

Still waiting for a brave one.

I'll try! Considering many GameWork features are using industry standards and brand agnostic to some degree not allowing your competitor not to fully optimize may be deemed anti-competitive, hurting the PC ecosystem from a cooperation point-of-view. Don't desire nVidia to support or optimize for AMD, but allow AMD to do it for their customers, that also are part of the PC platform.

 

[Jaydip]

No, we asked how NV cards ran the games with mantle support. When it turned out they ran them just fine with DX, that is when nobody cared because the existence of Mantle wasn't in lieu of an implementation that would work well for NV cards, it coexisted with such an implementation. It's galling that such a fundamental difference has to be explained umpteen times.

Also please elaborate on carebear. I've got this really great mental image of hardcore PvP consumerism, but I don't really think you're holding up EVE style shenanigans as a positive example.

See AMD created mantle to give their cards a boost and it was never intended to run on NV just like GW.It is not NV's responsibility to see how a game performs on AMD rather it is the job of the devs.A game performs poorly on AMD take it to the devs, it is their damn job to fix it.NV has been show GW features of W3 for a long time now, where was AMD then? why they didn't take it up with the devs sooner, when they could work with rockstar what prevented them from working with CDPR? blaming is the easiest way to turn away the focus, AMD cant just escape the blame at all.

 

[MrK6]

No. I didn't. And nobody wants to answer the question because It's a very touchy question. Its not a trick question. There is not one answer that i am looking for for anyone to be correct. I want to see just how skewed peoples expectations are and just how strong the sense of entitlement can get. From what I've seen so far, there isnt a limit. People are so afraid of truth that they only answer questions with bogus questions tryng to avoid exposing any beloved patriot in the armor.
Still waiting for a brave one.

Wow, bait much? Stop with the inflammatory language and personal attacks as we're trying to have a discussion here. You tried posting a leading question in an effort to drag someone into a mud-slinging match and derail the discussion; that failed, now stop threadcrapping.

This is where I get confused: Witcher 3 runs fine with Radeon hardware. I could see your point if HairWorks was essential and needed; it's a fidelity option that can be enabled or disabled.

That's the cornerstone here: can you disable the fluff added by any company and get a core game experience that is satisfactory and unhindered?

 

[ocre]

So it is fine when they cripple the smaller part of the market? As long as it doesn't hit the big dogs, it is ok?

Little jabs under the belt are allowed as long as it is not our balls that got hit?

Crippled?

Someone just said mantle didn't effect the DX code path, well...neither does hair works. Play the game the developer created, there is no crippling of the original DX code path.

Enable/turn on an nvidia special effect feature, one that is demanding even for a Titan x, and oh my..............
There is a performance hit!

Somehow you blame nvidia, they must have god like powers and came in your room and forced hairworks on your game. Maybe, if the option isn't sealed in by magic, you can turn it off.

Or, I hear there is this driver/ini hack that reduces tessellation levels and it reduces the load.

But, you know, these are just options.

 

[Enigmoid]

A lot of the outrage is because AMD performs poorly and it is felt that it shouldn't.

I'm laughing a little because features like TXAA have been Nvidia only for years and the amount of backlash was tiny. My bet is that if Nvidia just went out and paid Redkit to implement Gameworks as a separate module solely for their GPUs and Hairworks was not at all available on an AMD chip (marketed as a value adder solely for Nvidia cards because Nvidia helped the devs put it in) the backlash would be significantly smaller.

The game runs fine on AMD cards without Hairworks. Just turn it off and pretend it doesn't exist if it bothers you.

 

[SirPauly]

Yeah, I raised a similar point ---- but it seems AMD owners can enjoy HBAO+, PhysX cloth, PhysX destruction, and a tweaked HairWorks -- a lot of good there and some may be allowing idealism to be the enemy of good.

 

[xthetenth]

This is where I get confused: Witcher 3 runs fine with Radeon hardware. I could see your point if HairWorks was essential and needed; it's a fidelity option that can be enabled or disabled.

It does, but it means getting stuck with bare minimum versions of effects. Even then, it's not a huge deal (although it is annoying and frustrating) except for the pattern of doing things to hurt everyone because it hurts them least. Time and effort spent should go to making their stuff perform better, not to making things perform worse on others' (and their old) hardware. That's the difference to me between AMD winning ties and specifically timing the market to buy AMD.

Also, the effects in the game without gameworks are equal to the budget for those effects minus the costs of implementing gameworks, so there is a slight reduction in quality because of it.

 

[ocre]

I'll try! Considering many GameWork features are using industry standards and brand agnostic to some degree not allowing your competitor not to fully optimize may be deemed anti-competitive, hurting the PC ecosystem from a cooperation point-of-view. Don't desire nVidia to support or optimize for AMD, but allow AMD to do it for their customers, that also are part of the PC platform.

I think there is deeper reasons.

Gameworks.....

Just look at nvidia and Linux. They offer a great driver but completely closed. They are protecting their IP, in their minds.

I believe they are keeping their secret sauce close to their hearts. They would rather create powerful Linux drivers than give up their secrets.

Nvidia views themselves not just a gpu maker but a software company as well. And they take this very seriously. Gameworks closed libraries, it is not different from anything else they do.

They protect the nvidia secret sauce, even got the finger for it. But they believe it holds secrets to their designs. I wouldn't say that their closed tactics with Linux is just to hurt AMD performance. Nvidia just takes extra care to protect their IP.

Gameworks is being manipulated in an AMD smear campaign, it is their thing. Nvidias has protected their software/HW long before gameworks. Nvidia makes it really hard to reverse engineer.....this has been an nvidia thing for a long long time now

 

[SirPauly]

I don't disagree on protecting their IP/secret sauce and probably right on target.

 

[Headfoot]

To maintain trade secret protection in the US you have to take reasonable measures to protect the secrecy of the information. Open sourcing it de facto loses your trade secret status.

 

[TypoFairy©]

How can we have a meaningful conversation when people are saying stuff like this,




Seriously?

Clearly, you have no idea how any of this really works. But don't feel bad, you are far from alone. Most people on these kind of threads fail in their grasp.

There is so much misinformation going around that it surprises me how a tech forum is reduced to such a level.

Not sure how you take the higher ground here then spout this nonsense from your mouth.

Gameworks is being manipulated in an AMD smear campaign, it is their thing. Nvidias has protected their software/HW long before gameworks. Nvidia makes it really hard to reverse engineer.....this has been an nvidia thing for a long long time now

All those angry kepler users being manipulated by the amd machine!! Amd notorious for its poor ability to advertise its products effectively has somehow managed to mobilize team green along with team red Clearly, you have no idea how any of this really works. There is so much misinformation going around that it surprises me how a tech forum is reduced to such a level.

 

[chimaxi83]

How can we have a meaningful conversation when people are saying stuff like this,




Seriously?

Clearly, you have no idea how any of this really works. But don't feel bad, you are far from alone. Most people on these kind of threads fail in their grasp.

There is so much misinformation going around that it surprises me how a tech forum is reduced to such a level.

I see you have absolutely nothing intelligent to add to counter the opinion I presented, other than a lame "your brain just can't grasp" personal attack to cover that you don't know, either. If there is "so much misinformation" out there, why not clear some of it up? A 2015 AAA game has terrible hair texture and appearance on everything except the main character unless you turn on a GameWorks feature. Excuse me for having an opinion on that.

This thread has pretty much run it's course. All you have is the usual group where Nvidia can do no wrong, and another group attempting to use logic and facts (like GameWorks, in some way, shape, or form, cripples anything it touches) to show them what's going on. Meh.

 

[Stuka87]

I believe they are keeping their secret sauce close to their hearts. They would rather create powerful Linux drivers than give up their secrets.

Nvidia views themselves not just a gpu maker but a software company as well. And they take this very seriously. Gameworks closed libraries, it is not different from anything else they do.

They protect the nvidia secret sauce, even got the finger for it. But they believe it holds secrets to their designs. I wouldn't say that their closed tactics with Linux is just to hurt AMD performance. Nvidia just takes extra care to protect their IP.

lol, if their "Secret Sauce" is "Hey everybody, look how crappy our code runs on every GPU made! Especially our own!" then they can keep it.

And what does gameworks have to do with Linux??