[Forbes] AMD Is Wrong About 'The Witcher 3' And Nvidia's HairWorks

[MisterLilBig]

Well three (edit) things have to happen.
1.Nvidia will have to let AMD share in their hard work for free with the game developers. (not gonna happen)
2.AMD needs to develop their own Hairworks type stuff and work with developers better to have it released with AAA games.

Edit:
OR
3.AMD will need to up their marketshare to make developers come to them.

You are blind to the "issue".

All Nvidia "has" to do is let people modify the code. You know, change the license. GameWorks is a "black box", it is illegal to touch the code from it.

 

[railven]

Is it possible that Maxwell does better at some things Keplar/AMD can't?
I'm no gpu techy, just askin.

Well, yeah that was already discussed, but I'm taking Pauly's comment as he wants more flexibility.

We've already seen AMD cards benefit from Tessellation options with Hairworks, well why not Nvidia? As a Kepler user I'd be more pleased with my card and not ready to disown Nvidia if I had the following:

Hairworks: Off/4x/8x/Ultra
With results:
Off: 60 FPS
4x: 55 FPS
8x: 45 FPS
Ultra: 30 FPS

Versus
Hairworks: Off/On
Off: 60 FPS
On: 30 FPS

It would give the feature more use/benefit. Right now Kepler users are upset and AMD users found a solution - well we want it too. Give us the option, it doesn't hurt your bottom line does it? (in this statement, Us is kepler users, your is Nvidia)

EDIT:
To answer my own question, it does, because Kepler users then won't feel the need to upgrade to Maxwell to get acceptable performance from Hairworks.

 

[happy medium]

You are blind to the "issue".

All Nvidia "has" to do is let people modify the code. You know, change the license. GameWorks is a "black box", it is illegal to touch the code from it.

Sounds a lot like my number 1 on my list.

 

[nurturedhate]

You don't even have to factor in AMD. Hairworks is crippling performance on Nvidia hardware. I believe that is what Pauly is specifically talking about.

Yep, and in the long run it has the potential to cost them market share. People are clearly not happy. I'm rather brand agnostic. Voodoo3, Geforce 2 GTS, ATI 9800xt, 8800gt, 4870 xfire, 580, 780ti. Probably would have bought a 290x for BF4/mantle but I had to replace my 580 in Feb 2014 and 290s were very expensive due to mining at the time and I saw my 780ti on sale for $550 and I couldn't pass it up.

I have been happy for the most part with my 780ti but having experienced a couple games now where kepler performance doesn't look right makes me lean towards an AMD card next round. I buy based on $/performance but seeing this purported lack of caring for their install base in the name of profits steers me towards the other company.

It is hard to make a regular person switch from a brand they prefer but this will surely do it. Time will tell if we are talking a couple percent market share or more. Stunts like this are not easily forgotten, Nvidia should clearly know this from watching AMD.

 

[happy medium]

Give us the option, it doesn't hurt your bottom line does it? (in this statement, Us is kepler users, your is Nvidia)

OK I see , well so your looking for a option in the Nvidia control panel to adjust your settings for Keplar cards? Nothing wrong with that.

 

[railven]

Yep, and in the long run it has the potential to cost them market share. People are clearly not happy. I'm rather brand agnostic. Voodoo3, Geforce 2 GTS, ATI 9800xt, 8800gt, 4870 xfire, 580, 780ti. Probably would have bought a 290x for BF4/mantle but I had to replace my 580 in Feb 2014 and 290s were very expensive due to mining at the time and I saw my 780ti on sale for $550 and I couldn't pass it up.

I have been happy for the most part with my 780ti but having experienced a couple games now where kepler performance doesn't look right makes me lean towards an AMD card next round. I buy based on $/performance but seeing this purported lack of caring for their install base in the name of profits steers me towards the other company.

It is hard to make a regular person switch from a brand they prefer but this will surely do it. Time will tell if we are talking a couple percent market share or more. Stunts like this are not easily forgotten, Nvidia should clearly know this from watching AMD.

There is a growing backlash (at least on the surface, again the internet people say one thing and do another) in some of the forums I like to frequent. Just stop by Reddit to see some Nvidia hating.

Nvidia is responding, and no doubt it's because Reddit/NeoGaf aren't happy (and if you want positive word of mouth, you keep those two groups happy!).

I know MGS5 is gonna be Greenworks, and that game alone might keep me tied to Nvidia. As a long time Radeon user, I can't say my experience with Nvidia has been pleasant. But AMD also has to do their part to make me want to buy their products.

 

[SirPauly]

Well, yeah that was already discussed, but I'm taking Pauly's comment as he wants more flexibility.

We've already seen AMD cards benefit from Tessellation options with Hairworks, well why not Nvidia? As a Kepler user I'd be more pleased with my card and not ready to disown Nvidia if I had the following:

Hairworks: Off/4x/8x/Ultra
With results:
Off: 60 FPS
4x: 55 FPS
8x: 45 FPS
Ultra: 30 FPS

Versus
Hairworks: Off/On
Off: 60 FPS
On: 30 FPS

It would give the feature more use/benefit. Right now Kepler users are upset and AMD users found a solution - well we want it too. Give us the option, it doesn't hurt your bottom line does it? (in this statement, Us is kepler users, your is Nvidia)

EDIT:
To answer my own question, it does, because Kepler users then won't feel the need to upgrade to Maxwell to get acceptable performance from Hairworks.

If the developer adds a tessellation slider -- i'm all for it. I feel strongly about not going behind the backs of developers and altering and losing IQ, no matter how slight, from an IHV standpoint. It's a slippery slope.

I understand why AMD offers the tessellation slider and at least the gamer can decide based on their subjective tastes and tolerances.

 

[Kenmitch]

Is it possible that Maxwell does better at some things Keplar/AMD can't?
I'm no gpu techy, just askin.

Yes in some ways.

I'm betting it's more fear of AMD. They wont stay down for the count. Sure sometimes they'll pop up at the 9 count, but they do get up.

It's the fear that causes them to exploit the strength of current offerings which in turn sacrifices performance on even their own past generations.

Having a 970 I guess I'm supposed to support NVIDIA and praise their tactics? Not gonna happen in my lifetime.

If AMD's next offerings are tessellating monsters they'll just shift the strategy elsewhere.

Being a casual gamer I don't pay full pop for games, don't buy on release, nor do I condone sacrificing one's own lambs for the good of the almighty one.

 

[railven]

If the developer adds a tessellation slider -- i'm all for it. I feel strongly about not going behind the backs of developers and altering and losing IQ, no matter how slight, from an IHV standpoint. It's a slippery slope.

I understand why AMD offers the tessellation slider and at least the gamer can decide based on their subjective tastes and tolerances.

My example wasn't even a Control Panel slider, but an actual in-game slider which would be direct from the developers. So there is no circumventing the developer's desires.

As it stands now, my understanding is because of how the agreement to use Greenworks is established, the developers have no actual input in what the code does. Which means the Devs can't implement options to adjust the feature directly.

If NV played ball, devs could add that slider/option and NV doesn't get a black eye. [EDIT: Although as Kenmitch points out above, this would also benefit AMD users. So Nvidia has reasons not to do it.]

 

[Kenmitch]

If the developer adds a tessellation slider -- i'm all for it. I feel strongly about not going behind the backs of developers and altering and losing IQ, no matter how slight, from an IHV standpoint. It's a slippery slope.

I understand why AMD offers the tessellation slider and at least the gamer can decide based on their subjective tastes and tolerances.

In the end it's all about performance. The end user should be the one that determines it. Eye candy is cool but for some fps matter more. A person should be able to tweak settings to balance the two. The tessellation slider is a great feature that allows one the option.

 

[MisterLilBig]

Sounds a lot like my number 1 on my list.

Similar. It's not sharing as in taking or giving. It's just being able to modify it per use case. And it is not only AMD, every other company.



Off-topic: I actually wish Mali, Adreno and PowerVR dGPU's where a thing! >.>''

 

[happy medium]

If the developer adds a tessellation slider -- i'm all for it

This chart shows the gtx7 series doing fairly well with tessalation, in fact most Nvidia cards do well and the AMD 285 seems good also.
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2015-vga-charts/02-Unigine-Heaven-1080p,3665.html

Seems funny how no one cared about tessalation in 2011.

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/...is-the-most-overhyped-directx-11-feature.aspx

 

[SirPauly]

In the end it's all about performance. The end user should be the one that determines it. Eye candy is cool but for some fps matter more. A person should be able to tweak settings to balance the two. The tessellation slider is a great feature that allows one the option.

To some performance is everything, but to me, enhancements, fidelity features and a commitment for them is very important as well. I debated against nVidia's aggressive optimizations for performance in the past, was very, very vocal and nVIdia has learned from their mistakes of the past and impressed by their commitment, really since the G-80.

I think it's a slippery slope, sorry.

 

[SirPauly]

If NV played ball, devs could add that slider/option and NV doesn't get a black eye. [EDIT: Although as Kenmitch points out above, this would also benefit AMD users. So Nvidia has reasons not to do it.]

nVidia likes x64 tessellation and their hardware has advantages -- I would really like to know what are the subtle quality differences or advantages for x64? Undersampling? I don't know, if someone could answer this, would be appreciated.

 

[nurturedhate]

There is a growing backlash (at least on the surface, again the internet people say one thing and do another) in some of the forums I like to frequent. Just stop by Reddit to see some Nvidia hating.

Nvidia is responding, and no doubt it's because Reddit/NeoGaf aren't happy (and if you want positive word of mouth, you keep those two groups happy!).

I know MGS5 is gonna be Greenworks, and that game alone might keep me tied to Nvidia. As a long time Radeon user, I can't say my experience with Nvidia has been pleasant. But AMD also has to do their part to make me want to buy their products.

Completely agree. The backlash alone is not enough to make an impactful dent. The opportunity has been presented to AMD. They MUST capitalize on this opportunity as things like this rarely present themselves.

 

[Azix]

There is a growing backlash (at least on the surface, again the internet people say one thing and do another) in some of the forums I like to frequent. Just stop by Reddit to see some Nvidia hating.

Nvidia is responding, and no doubt it's because Reddit/NeoGaf aren't happy (and if you want positive word of mouth, you keep those two groups happy!).

I know MGS5 is gonna be Greenworks, and that game alone might keep me tied to Nvidia. As a long time Radeon user, I can't say my experience with Nvidia has been pleasant. But AMD also has to do their part to make me want to buy their products.

ewwwwwwww. You just degraded this entire forum mentioning that site.

I don't think it will matter much in the end. Nvidia can get away with a lot. Even when its nvidias fault its AMDs fault. eg. of them getting away with a lot would be the 970 vram issue. If that was AMD.... boy oh boy

mgs is gameworks? wow. We really need things to be done AMDs way. That is how we will really get far with PC gaming. Nvidias approach not only harms us but it won't help PC devs be better at making games for PC. The tech they use will also be held back by whatever nvidia is capable of and wants to do. Rather than open improvements.

 

[Final8ty]

Dear CD Projekt RED,

We address you as PC customers and, above all, fans of your games. The Witcher 3 is a spectacular game, according to reviewer and gamer opinions all over the world. Your game breaks previous boundaries concerning story-telling and gameplay through a vast and detailed open-world. It exceeded the wildest expectations for many of us.

That said, we PC gamers would love to enjoy this game you made (and we purchased or will purchase) to its fullest. This would, of course, include the ability to play the game using realistic hair and fur to make the world you created even more immersive.

Unfortunately, this cannot be achieved by almost anyone with high-end PCs because the usage of nVidia's "Hairworks" is severely plummeting the performance for both AMD and nVidia users, for what appears to us as a "purposely inefficient" method forced by nVidia's "Gameworks" suite. As it stands right now, only the users with a $1000 "Titan X" are able to enjoy the game with advanced hair and fur simulation and sufficient framerates. This even leaves out nVidia's own GTX 980 and 970 users.

We believe this method is inefficient because the hair simulation creates a performance hit much larger than what we saw with 2013's Tomb Raider. Also by using other "hacks", such as limiting the tesselation levels in the drivers or editing a .ini file to limit "Hairworks MSAA" levels can give substantial performance gains to both AMD and nVidia users, without causing discernible visual difference.Moreover, nVidia does not provide the source code for Hairworks, leaving out the option for further optimization from your team or AMD's driver division.



In a recent interview with Richard Huddy from AMD, it has come to our attention that you are not contractually obligated to avoid using other technologies for hair and fur simulation. This way, using the much faster (and open for optimization) "TressFX" technology as an option to "Hairworks" would allow several thousands of other users to play The Witcher 3 with these features.

With this in mind, we are kindly asking you to consider the option to include "TressFX" in a future patch, so that both AMD and nVidia users can enjoy your game, the way you envisioned for us with such care and dedication.


Kind Regards,

Your loyal PC fans and customers.

https://www.change.org/p/cd-projekt...ion-to-use-tressfx-in-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt

 

[bowler484]

2.AMD needs to develop their own Hairworks type stuff and work with developers better to have it released with AAA games.

You hit the nail right on the head.

Nvidia should immediately stop allowing AMD hardware to run anything Gameworks related. If AMD users are getting extra features, it should be AMD creating them.

GTA is the perfect example of what could become of this. Both teams supported the developer with features and the game ran very well right out of the gate. As a PC gamer, we need more like this happening.

GTA proved with 100% certainty that the presence of Gameworks alone has virtually no effect on how AMD cards run the game when Gameworks is turned off despite what they've been telling us. If AMD is not getting game code because of Gameworks, how did they optimize GTA?

The Forbes author has been an AMD supporter for a long time and has called out Nvidia on numerous occasions for nonsense they pull. It's only right and fair that he does the same with AMD when it's deserved and in this case it is.

Watch Dogs was the poster child for Gameworks supposedly crippling AMD. HBAO+ and TXAA were the Gameworks tech in that one. GTA V has TXAA and PCSS. Why was one "crippled" and one not? Because AMD put the effort in with GTA that's why.

Does it not concern anyone that AMD talks about how Gameworks cripples them and calls out developers on it. Then magically they make up and the game gets fixed because AMD finally puts the effort in? Forbes noticed this and so have other sites.

The bottom line is AMD is purposely not optimizing anything Gameworks until the game is released. It's being done so people believe Gameworks is the one and only cause when it's not. It paints AMD and it's users as victims to make Nvidia look bad.

I implore you all to wake up and stop being AMD's pawn here. They are using you every bit as much as Nvidia is. We have one company that's become overly greedy because their success and another company that's not doing well so now they tell lies to try to win back market share.

 

[swilli89]

GTA proved with 100% certainty that the presence of Gameworks alone has virtually no effect on how AMD cards run the game

Now that is extremely accurate data! 100% certainty! Whoo boy, can't argue against those numbers..

 

[bowler484]

Now that is extremely accurate data! 100% certainty! Whoo boy, can't argue against those numbers..

Please list all the performance issues caused to AMD by Gameworks in GTA then. Why are there no stories on tech sites about Gameworks crippling AMD and using GTA as an example?

It's quite telling when you have to directly focus on something like a number or percentage when there is so much more to the post.

 

[swilli89]

Please list all the performance issues caused to AMD by Gameworks in GTA then. Why are there no stories on tech sites about Gameworks crippling AMD and using GTA as an example?

It's quite telling when you have to directly focus on something like a number or percentage when there is so much more to the post.

I was focusing on your hyperbole.

 

[maddie]

You hit the nail right on the head.

Nvidia should immediately stop allowing AMD hardware to run anything Gameworks related. If AMD users are getting extra features, it should be AMD creating them.

GTA is the perfect example of what could become of this. Both teams supported the developer with features and the game ran very well right out of the gate. As a PC gamer, we need more like this happening.

GTA proved with 100% certainty that the presence of Gameworks alone has virtually no effect on how AMD cards run the game when Gameworks is turned off despite what they've been telling us. If AMD is not getting game code because of Gameworks, how did they optimize GTA?

The Forbes author has been an AMD supporter for a long time and has called out Nvidia on numerous occasions for nonsense they pull. It's only right and fair that he does the same with AMD when it's deserved and in this case it is.

Watch Dogs was the poster child for Gameworks supposedly crippling AMD. HBAO+ and TXAA were the Gameworks tech in that one. GTA V has TXAA and PCSS. Why was one "crippled" and one not? Because AMD put the effort in with GTA that's why.

Does it not concern anyone that AMD talks about how Gameworks cripples them and calls out developers on it. Then magically they make up and the game gets fixed because AMD finally puts the effort in? Forbes noticed this and so have other sites.

The bottom line is AMD is purposely not optimizing anything Gameworks until the game is released. It's being done so people believe Gameworks is the one and only cause when it's not. It paints AMD and it's users as victims to make Nvidia look bad.

I implore you all to wake up and stop being AMD's pawn here. They are using you every bit as much as Nvidia is. We have one company that's become overly greedy because their success and another company that's not doing well so now they tell lies to try to win back market share.

You are claiming that AMD is sabotaging themselves so as to seen as the victim. They must truly be run by masochists.

This alone makes everything you posted worthless.

I'm actually stunned that someone can believe this.

 

[happy medium]

You are claiming that AMD is sabotaging themselves so as to seen as the victim. They must truly be run by masochists

On the other hand you have people saying Nvidia is purposely sabotaging themselves with Keplar. Go figure ha?

 

[ocre]

Well that's just wrong. When Nintendo held roughly 54% of the market with Wii, developers still didn't bring games to the Nintendo due to multiple reasons, the primary being hardware deficiencies.

Devs aren't catering to Nvidia. More like Nvidia is targeting specific high profile titles and catering to them. If it were the other way around the amount of games using Greenworks would be the majority.

Listen to happy because it looks like you only half way follow the Wii and its situation.

I hope you really didn't know this and you aren't just pointlessly arguing. I really thought it was common knowledge.

Anyway, the wii was an absolute surprise with it's massive success in console sales. Developers were not expecting this at all but they quickly jumped into action. You are completely wrong or misinformed. See, developers all tried to cash in on the wii success but the problem was that wii software sales were terrible. Very few people bought games. This was almost as shocking as the success of the system. Nintendo had more systems sold than any other console, for a while more than both Sony and M$ combined, but most people who bought the system completely ignored 3rd party games. This was so surprising, in fact, several lengthy articles were written about it. The Nintendo wii software sales were awful. This is caused developers to shy away from the system

 

[railven]

Bah OT, nvm