[Forbes] AMD Is Wrong About 'The Witcher 3' And Nvidia's HairWorks

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amenx

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Dec 17, 2004
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Although not much interest to me, I know many here would probably be. I have no judgment on the matter. :cool:

If you’re following this story, you may be aware of CD Projekt Red’s official statement on the matter. They told Overclock3D that yes, HairWorks can run on AMD hardware, but that “unsatisfactory performance may be experienced as the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products.”

Let’s assume Huddy’s claim of working with the developer “from the beginning” is true. The Witcher 3 was announced February 2013. Was 2+ years not long enough to approach CD Projekt Red with the possibility of implementing TressFX? Let’s assume AMD somehow wasn’t brought into the loop until as late as Gamescom 2014 in August. Is 9 months not enough time to properly optimize HairWorks for their hardware? (Apparently Reddit user “FriedBongWater” only needed 48 hours after the game’s release to publish a workaround enabling better performance of HairWorks on AMD hardware, so there’s that.)

Hell, let’s even assume that AMD really didn’t get that code until 2 months prior, even though they’ve been working with the developer since day 1. Do you find that hard to swallow?

That’s all irrelevant in my eyes, because the ask never came in time. Via Ars Technica, Huddy claims that when AMD noticed the terrible HairWorks performance on their hardware two months prior to release, that’s when they “specifically asked” CD Projekt Red if they wanted to incorporate TressFX. The developer said “it was too late.”

Well, of course it was too late. Nvidia and CD Projekt Red spent two years optimizing HairWorks for The Witcher 3. But here’s the bottom line: The developer had HairWorks code for nearly two years. The entire world knew this. If AMD had been working with the developer “since the beginning” how on earth could they have been blindsided by this code only 2 months prior to release? None of it adds up, and it points to a larger problem.

Look, I respect AMD and have built many systems for personal use and here at Forbes using their hardware. AMD’s constant pulpit of open source drivers and their desire to prevent a fragmented PC gaming industry is honorable, but is it because they don’t want to do the work?

A PC enthusiast on Reddit did more to solve the HairWorks performance problem than AMD has apparently done. AMD’s last Catalyst WQHL driver was 161 days ago, and the company hasn’t announced one on the horizon. Next to Nvidia’s monthly update cycle and game-ready driver program, this looks lazy.

If you want a huge AAA game release to look great on your hardware, you take the initiative to ensure that it does. What you don’t do is expect your competitor to make it easier for you by opening up the technology they’ve invested millions of dollars into. You innovate using your own technologies. Or you increase your resources. Or you bolster your relationships and face time with developers.

In short, you just find a way to get it done.

If I sound frustrated, it’s because I am. I’ve been an enthusiastic fan of AMD for a good long while (just look at the numerous DIY builds and positive reviews I’ve given them), and last year at this same time I was admittedly on the other side of this argument. But what I’m seeing now is a company who keeps insisting their sole competitor make their job easier “for the good of PC gaming.” And I see said competitor continuing to innovate with graphics technologies that make games more beautiful. And I see promises like the concept of “OpenWorks” laying stagnant a full year after they’re hyped up. And I see AMD’s desktop GPU market share continue to slip and think to myself “maybe this is not a coincidence.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ng-about-the-witcher-3-and-nvidias-hairworks/
 

greatnoob

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Jan 6, 2014
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Vomit worthy article.

TressFX is open source, you don't need AMD's help if you've got the damn code right in front of you!
 
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So he doesn't know what goes on behind the scenes and he blames AMD, "just find a way to get it done"... like bribing devs with more $ or marketing support than NV?

That's not a game the underdog can play because they lack $ to compete in that area.

This comment is insulting:

"AMD’s constant pulpit of open source drivers and their desire to prevent a fragmented PC gaming industry is honorable, but is it because they don’t want to do the work?"

They done the work with open source DX11 features, Forward+ used in many games, TressFX debut in Tomb Raider which looks nicer than HairWorks in Witcher 3, Snow Physics in Company of Heroes 2, Global Illumination, Tessellation for Interactive Water... the only difference is they made it open source, no code obfuscation. What they make, they give to the industry as a whole, free & open.
 
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And guess what, they did the mother of all favors for the gaming industry & gamers.

Mantle, giving all devs access during beta to the SDK along with giving that to Apple as a foundation for Metal, giving it Kronos for the foundation of Vulkan and definitely giving it a long time ago to MS for the foundation of DX12.

We gamers will benefit from their open nature to benefit everyone with their innovations. That deserves respect, not scorn, especially from denialist who cannot accept that DX12 was built upon Mantle (large sections of source code identical, documentation identical, nomenclature identical..). They don't wish to give credit where its due. So in the future when we're gaming on DX12 or Vulkan, we're benefiting from the actions of AMD & DICE.
 

amenx

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Dec 17, 2004
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Vomit worthy article.

TressFX is open source, you don't need AMD's help if you've got the damn code right in front of you!
Even if TressFX is open source does that mean it would automatically be used without AMD involvement or request from them to implement it? Anyway, he does say "I’ve reached out to AMD and invited them to issue a follow-up comment or offer any clarity to Huddy’s statement. " So lets see what comes out of that.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
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Even if TressFX is open source does that mean it would automatically be used without AMD involvement or request from them to implement it? Anyway, he does say "I’ve reached out to AMD and invited them to issue a follow-up comment or offer any clarity to Huddy’s statement. " So lets see what comes out of that.

I'm not even going to bother answering this! If you have no argument and you don't understand what you're trying to dispute please don't bother posting because right now you look sound like an absolute moron.

If you aren't going to bother answering his post then don't.
-Moderator Subyman
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
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I'm not even going to bother answering this! If you have no argument and you don't understand what you're trying to dispute please don't bother posting because right now you look sound like an absolute moron.
Quoted for posterity. I sense a vacation on your horizon :D.
 

Keysplayr

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Jan 16, 2003
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Even if TressFX is open source does that mean it would automatically be used without AMD involvement or request from them to implement it? Anyway, he does say "I’ve reached out to AMD and invited them to issue a follow-up comment or offer any clarity to Huddy’s statement. " So lets see what comes out of that.

Yes. TressFX would show up in the game magically. Through sheer will of the people.
The guy who wrote this article is only saying what everybody is thinking. And when I say "everybody" I mean those that think. AMD does next to nothing for it's customers and expects all their work to be done by their competitor, or third parties, or some guy named "friedbongwater" to do it for them.
So yeah, Lazy seems to be a well chosen description.
 

Keysplayr

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Jan 16, 2003
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Quoted for posterity. I sense a vacation on your horizon :D.

I'll answer your question for him.

No.

That is all he had to say to remain relevant in this conversation. And a damn sight better than calling anyone a moron.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
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You know what, I've changed my mind. Here let me answer your stupid question:
Even if TressFX is open source does that mean it would automatically be used without AMD involvement or request from them to implement it?


define open source (google):

denoting software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified.
 

arandomguy

Senior member
Sep 3, 2013
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Open source by itself now is often just being thrown around as a term used for marketing purposes.

Open source software does not mean it is devoid of licenisng terms and there are specific open source licenses.

Most people likely associate the term "open source" with the popular GNU GPL license, or at least the terms within it, but this does not mean everythng that is being called open source actually uses that license or even has similar terms.

What is AMDs specific licensing terms?

http://opensource.org/licenses

Also realistically software developers are more likely to adopt your tools with engagement and active support. Simply leaving them out there for "free" does not mean they are obligated (nor would be easy for them) to adopt and use them.
 
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greatnoob

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Seems like nobody here actually understands what open source is.

If your programmers can't read already provided documentation and samples and would rather a 'helping hand' from a company that is making neither direct or indirect profit from FREELY available resources that they've released to the public then they deserved to be fired since they aren't doing their jobs, they are just being spoonfed.

AMD is a business, not a charity.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
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As a business, AMD needs to make sure their products and codes (open source or not) are being utilized by game devs to the fullest. They cannot just sit on their asses and assume their open source is automatically going to be used. They have to sell it! They have to push game devs to use it. But they didnt. Thats poor management in my book. What a pathetic forumula for any competing hardware maker to use... 'hey, if we make it open source... everyone is going to use it, no ifs, ands or buts about it'! This impacts their business. They can not afford to leave things at the whims of game devs or others they do business with. They have to be pro-active.

p.s. "Seems like nobody here actually understands what open source is."

fixed:

Seems like somebody here doesnt understand what running a successful business involves.
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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Seems like nobody here actually understands what open source is.

If your programmers can't read already provided documentation and samples and would rather a 'helping hand' from a company that is making neither direct or indirect profit from FREELY available resources that they've released to the public then they deserved to be fired since they aren't doing their jobs, they are just being spoonfed.

AMD is a business, not a charity.

Define charity in the context you just used it, please.
 

thilanliyan

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Jun 21, 2005
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"Nvidia and CD Projekt Red spent two years optimizing HairWorks for The Witcher 3"

They spent two years optimizing and it still tanks performance? :p
I don't think nV has any obligation to make hairworks perform well on AMD cards. I do think it looks pretty good, but I think the performance hit is too much, even for nV cards.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
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As a business, AMD needs to make sure their products and codes (open source or not) are being utilized by game devs to the fullest. They cannot just sit on their asses and assume their open source is automatically going to be used. They have to sell it! They have to push game devs to use it. But they didnt. Thats poor management in my book. What a pathetic forumula for any competing hardware maker to use... 'hey, if we make it open source... everyone is going to use it, no ifs, ands or buts about it'!

So many contradictions in one post I am amazed by your ignorance!!!

AMD needs to make sure their products and codes (open source or not) are being utilized by game devs to the fullest
Says who? A FREELY released library released as open source DOES NOT mean "utilisation by devs to the fullest". The reasoning behind open source is to cater for the developer community and rather create and refine current or even new projects from different developers and groups. Open source projects do not follow the capitalist "MORE MARKET SHARE" ideology that you think it does, that's because open source is mostly free work for the betterment of the developer community.

They cannot just sit on their asses and assume their open source [work] is automatically going to be used.
That is the point of open source, if there's no demand for it, nobody uses it. Developers choose what they do and do not create. They know the rough mental and mathematical power needed for different requirements. They don't need to be sold to use pre-written libraries since this free and documented code itself is cutting THEIR workload.

They have to sell it! They have to push game devs to use it. But they didnt.
HAHAHAHAA! Reminder time:
open source:
denoting software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified.
This isn't Nvidia, this is AMD. Again, open source does not revolve around a "more market share, more money" capitalist ideology.

'hey, if we make it open source... everyone is going to use it, no ifs, ands or buts about it'
:confused::confused::confused: AMD said this? No. That's what you think.

Clearly shows how little you know about the subject of open source libraries.

fixed:

Seems like somebody here doesnt understand what running a successful business involves.
It involves making profit. NOT by being a charity and offering resources to game studios for FREE AND DOCUMENTED libraries that they ARE NOT MAKING A PROFIT FROM.
 
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As a business, AMD needs to make sure their products and codes (open source or not) are being utilized by game devs to the fullest. They cannot just sit on their asses and assume their open source is automatically going to be used. They have to sell it! They have to push game devs to use it. But they didnt. Thats poor management in my book. What a pathetic forumula for any competing hardware maker to use... 'hey, if we make it open source... everyone is going to use it, no ifs, ands or buts about it'! This impacts their business. They can not afford to leave things at the whims of game devs or others they do business with. They have to be pro-active.

Did you recall the Game Dev Conference recently? AMD presented a few talks, showing their new features and offering tips to devs to use it. They are selling in in that sense, but no, they won't be able to compete in the game of "who has more $ to throw at developers/studios to get them to use our features!!"...

In fact, that aproach itself is horrid. Nothing good comes from that.. unless you think turning on fluffy hair to tank performance even in NV's GPU hard, making a 980 unplayable at 1080 in Witcher 3 is a good thing.

Check out TressFX (Lara's hair >> Geralt's hair!) performance hit on the "bad at compute" GK104 Kepler.

13632141234v2TkTbPdM_6_6.jpg


http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013...deo_card_performance_iq_review/6#.VVsAI_mqpBc
 

Good_fella

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Feb 12, 2015
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So he doesn't know what goes on behind the scenes and he blames AMD, "just find a way to get it done"... like bribing devs with more $ or marketing support than NV?

That's not a game the underdog can play because they lack $ to compete in that area.

This comment is insulting:

"AMD’s constant pulpit of open source drivers and their desire to prevent a fragmented PC gaming industry is honorable, but is it because they don’t want to do the work?"

They done the work with open source DX11 features, Forward+ used in many games, TressFX debut in Tomb Raider which looks nicer than HairWorks in Witcher 3, Snow Physics in Company of Heroes 2, Global Illumination, Tessellation for Interactive Water... the only difference is they made it open source, no code obfuscation. What they make, they give to the industry as a whole, free & open.

Direct X is open source to you? :D If several companies licensing proprietary tech then it's open source?

Why AMD can't license Gameworks and stop crying?
 
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@Good_fella

DX is open source on the windows platform. Why? Because all relevant IHV had a say in its creation.

Just as NV had a say in DX12's specification, adding in 12.1 features.

That's a community of IHV coming together to agree on a common spec, that's as open as you're gonna get for an API.
 

monstercameron

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Feb 12, 2013
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I wouldn't be harping on the word open source, it probably is and has a freedom respecting license. I'd use the words source code viewable or something to that effect to denote the differences in approach. I have to mention that nvidia alleges to now be providing source access.
The reasoning behind this is due to the fact that people have different definitions and philosophies regarding open source.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
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Define charity in the context you just used it, please.

I will say this one more time, pay very close attention:

1. TressFX is a FREE and DOCUMENTED library with SAMPLES.

2. The game studios have people called PROGRAMMERS who know how to WORK with CODE.

3. AMD is a business, if it is NOT MAKING MONEY (DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY) off of TressFX IT DOES NOT NEED TO SPEND RESOURCES ON A THIRD PARTY GAME STUDIO WHO HAVE ALREADY DOCUMENTED CODE FOR A FREE LIBRARY.

4. If CDPR's programmers need assistance implementing documented code then they should be sacked for their incompetence and laziness.

Summary:
You are asking AMD to spoonfeed people who have graduated with degrees who can read and write code. CDPR's programmers have TressFX code since it is FREE and DOCUMENTED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?
 
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So AMD knew that Kepler is weak at compute and sabotaged it. :colbert:

If they wanted to sabotage it, they would have obfuscated TressFX source code like what NV does with GameWorks. But nope, they gave every developer full access, no encryption, to the source code, allowing devs or NV to optimize it easily.

Higher ethical standards, maybe its something you wouldn't comprehend, which is why you accuse AMD of sabotaging NV. Wait, is that you nvgpu, Sabotage Evolve accusations again?

Infraction issued for member callout.
-- stahlhart
 
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KingFatty

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Dec 29, 2010
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Are there two schools of thought here?

I can see some posts sort of thinking that the burden is on the game developer to maximize performance to sell more games.

I can also see the other side where the burden is on GPU companies to work with game developer to maximize performance to sell more video cards.
 
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