For those who oppose any action against Iran

[Lemon law]

Sammy, you only fool yourself.

You seem to think the Arab world is stuck in the same anti Israeli metric it was in 1948. When the collective Arab world was wrong in its initial reaction of push the Israeli jews into the sea right after the 1948 formation of the State of Israel.

And yes the State of Israel was right to depend on military means to defend itself against irrational Arab Xenophobia.

But at the same time, in 1948, Israel had its chance to take the high road and prove its was better in 1948. Instead it took the opportunity to totally disenfranchise and rob its Palestinian population thereby proving the Arabs were basically right initially. And there Israel has been stuck ever since.

And while the Arab world has progressed politically, Israel gets ever more reactionary as it lets its recent immigrants drive its policies while proving Israel is a worthless addition to the neighborhood. Maybe at some point in 1948, Israel had the moral high ground, but now Israel can only admit it has more than earned Arab hatred.

Its a world wide no brainer in terms of the greatest good for the greatest number, 275 million Arabs vs. 6 million Israelis, and Israel long term loses regardless of current military hegemony. If Israel is going to have a long term chance, it must start showing its a positive addition to the neighborhood. Israel has the technology to do so, but its stuck in the politics of the past while the larger Arab world is moving on.

Shape up or be prepared to be over run long term. The Israeli rape of Lebanon was your wake up call, your government is about to fall, wake up and smell the coffee, you can fence yourself in but you can't fence the world out. Israeli piggish policy may have made a Palestinian State already impossible, so there fore you must assimilate them with Equal rights. A theorcratic Islamic State has no place in a modern world and neither does a Jewish one.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Moonbeam, in the Middle East, support of any leader by Israel (or the US for the matter) is a kiss of death - the common people are so badly brainwashed, any support for one of their guys done by Israel automatically makes him a traitor.

Besides, who said Democracy is good for the Arab world? I think what happened in Iraq goes to show that in these parts of the world, people need an iron fist.

What would really be good for the Arab world is a mass adoption of atheism.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Sammy, you only fool yourself.

You seem to think the Arab world is stuck in the same anti Israeli metric it was in 1948. When the collective Arab world was wrong in its initial reaction of push the Israeli jews into the sea right after the 1948 formation of the State of Israel.

And yes the State of Israel was right to depend on military means to defend itself against irrational Arab Xenophobia.

But at the same time, in 1948, Israel had its chance to take the high road and prove its was better in 1948. Instead it took the opportunity to totally disenfranchise and rob its Palestinian population thereby proving the Arabs were basically right initially. And there Israel has been stuck ever since.

And while the Arab world has progressed politically, Israel gets ever more reactionary as it lets its recent immigrants drive its policies while proving Israel is a worthless addition to the neighborhood. Maybe at some point in 1948, Israel had the moral high ground, but now Israel can only admit it has more than earned Arab hatred.

Its a world wide no brainer in terms of the greatest good for the greatest number, 275 million Arabs vs. 6 million Israelis, and Israel long term loses regardless of current military hegemony. If Israel is going to have a long term chance, it must start showing its a positive addition to the neighborhood. Israel has the technology to do so, but its stuck in the politics of the past while the larger Arab world is moving on.

Shape up or be prepared to be over run long term. The Israeli rape of Lebanon was your wake up call, your government is about to fall, wake up and smell the coffee, you can fence yourself in but you can't fence the world out. Israeli piggish policy may have made a Palestinian State already impossible, so there fore you must assimilate them with Equal rights. A theorcratic Islamic State has no place in a modern world and neither does a Jewish one.

Israel took the middle road in '48. What did it get them.
Promises from the Arab nations.
And another sneak attack 5 years later.

Repeat and rinse 2 more times.

Why should they have trusted the Palestinians when the Palestinians were providing support for the Arabs. Palestine was under Arab control, not Israeli control.
It seems as when the area of Arab Palestine is under Arab control, it was and still is used for attacks on Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

EagleKeeper whitewashes the truth. What he said is at best half true, the other part is all lie. Israel has more than done its bit to earn Arab hatred. Arabs have more than done their bit to earn Israeli hatred.

The point being, if that is the metric, it can only result in a future giant train wreck.

Missing in action is any desire to defuse tensions.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
EagleKeeper whitewashes the truth. What he said is at best half true, the other part is all lie. Israel has more than done its bit to earn Arab hatred. Arabs have more than done their bit to earn Israeli hatred.

The point being, if that is the metric, it can only result in a future giant train wreck.

Missing in action is any desire to defuse tensions.

A lie from who's POV.

Of course Israel has earned the Arab hatred.

They exist and have embarassed the mightly Arab leaders.
They took a 1 to 10 disadvantage and whipped the Arab armies.
They forced the Arab leaders to lose face and sue for a peace that was false.
They have developed land and an economy that the Arabs were unable to do so.

They have earned all the hatred that is thrown at them.
Now the Arabs have realized the Isreal still stands, they have reversed course and use the Palestinians as proxies to sooth their bruised egos.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
EagleKeeper whitewashes the truth. What he said is at best half true, the other part is all lie. Israel has more than done its bit to earn Arab hatred. Arabs have more than done their bit to earn Israeli hatred.

The point being, if that is the metric, it can only result in a future giant train wreck.

Missing in action is any desire to defuse tensions.

The only truth that can be discussed by the intrests of the Palestinians is if Israel should have been created in the first place, well it doesn't matter much now since the majority of them are no where near Palestine, nor do they wish to leave Lebanon, Egypt or Jordan, nor do they want to let the Egypts, Jordans or Lebanese back into their countries, you may not know that but todays Palestinian residents has no historical claim to anything but the surrounding Arab countries.

Now Israel is there, pretty much everyone but the ball-less president without an ounce of power in Iran and his lackey in Hamas knows that.

Deal with it.

If they are going to send rockets into Israel i suggest Israel widens the border with as much as it takes to make their rockets go out ouf range.

It's also interesting that during the last truce Hamas said that they couldn't police their own territory, well if they can't, Israel will have to, i mean, if someone started shooting rockets at your home, you'd expect your country to protect you, right? I sure as hell would and so they should.

It's fairly simple, if you stop shooting at Israel, Israel will not have to defend itself, i mean, how fucking hard is THAT?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
EagleKeeper whitewashes the truth. What he said is at best half true, the other part is all lie. Israel has more than done its bit to earn Arab hatred. Arabs have more than done their bit to earn Israeli hatred.

The point being, if that is the metric, it can only result in a future giant train wreck.

Missing in action is any desire to defuse tensions.

Basically, us Brits had claim to the land before you did, i hope you don't mind us launching a few rockets at your home, i mean, it was ours not too long ago, wasn't it? I sure hope you won't be calling on the military to do your sour bidding for this, you should just do what you think the Israelis should do, same situation, isn't it?

 

[HeXploiT]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well interesting that you mention that Samur. Seems it was largely premature and we just had a thread saying the yellow cake uranium that could make the reactor operational was never processed. And now is belatedly being shipped out of Iraq where it was stored for all these years. Which implies that at the time of the bombing in 1981, teh Iraqis lacked the equipment to enrich the Yellowcake to even low grade reactor fuel.

Then why do you suppose Israel did it?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
...
And while the Arab world has progressed politically, Israel gets ever more reactionary as it lets its recent immigrants drive its policies while proving Israel is a worthless addition to the neighborhood. Maybe at some point in 1948, Israel had the moral high ground, but now Israel can only admit it has more than earned Arab hatred.
...

jesus cristo.

Arab countries had nowhere else to go politically but up, and when one of their leaders came close to peace with Israel, they killed him! Now they elect terrorist groups to be their gov'ts, still take foreign aid intended for food and use it to buy weapons, still teach young children in schools that killing Israeli civilians and blowing themselves up for god is the greatest honor they can achieve in life...

Yes, Israel, the only functioning democracy in the ME is a worthless addition to the neighborhood.

 

[piasabird]

I would not call Iran a peaceful nation. Some of their soldiers were mixed in with the terrorists that were in Lebanon and attacking Isreal. These terrorists were all funded by the Iranians an their equipment was flowing through Syria. Iran was involved in Terrorism in both Iraq and also in Afghanistan. Iran maintains its peaceful status by destabilizing all the countries around it by supporting Muslim Terrorist activities.

If Isreal who was attacked by the puppets of Iran wants to strike back at them we have to allow them to do this because it is their right to defend themselves under international law.

 

[DealMonkey]

The Iranian war machine is truly something to fear:

http://gizmodo.com/5025395/115...created-with-photoshop

I say we strike now before their technology becomes even more advanced!

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: jonks
jesus cristo.

Arab countries had nowhere else to go politically but up, and when one of their leaders came close to peace with Israel, they killed him! Now they elect terrorist groups to be their gov'ts, still take foreign aid intended for food and use it to buy weapons, still teach young children in schools that killing Israeli civilians and blowing themselves up for god is the greatest honor they can achieve in life...

Yes, Israel, the only functioning democracy in the ME is a worthless addition to the neighborhood.

So you're saying that this seeming pattern of electing terrorists is unforgivable, right?

So would/do/did you similarly deem unforgivable the fact that Israelis elected as their 6th Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, who had previously led Irgun... It was during his tenure as the leader of that terrorist organization, after all, that the King David Hotel bombing and the Sergeants Affair both occurred (just two such examples in Irgun's history):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachim_Begin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun#The_Sergeants_affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...tacks_during_the_1930s

How about the fact that after Begin, the next Prime Minsiter to be elected was Yitzhak Shamir, who had previously been one of the trio of leaders of Lehi. It was during his tenure in that role that Lehi carried out the assassinations of British government representative, Lord Moyne, and UN mediator, Folke Bernadotte. As with Irgun, of course, these were only a couple of the many terrorist acts they committed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...on_Moyne#Assassination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...rnadotte#Assassination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...group%29#Later_history

In fact, Shamir won two non-consecutive terms in the office. Do you just as vehemently condemn that?

And that's not even taking into account the election of a former Defense Minister, Ariel Sharon, who was found by the Israeli government's Kahan Commission to be "personally responsible" in the Sabra and Shatila massacre. This is notable not only because of his later election as a Prime Minister but also because the Prime Minister at the time of the commission, who refused to fire Sharon as Defense Minister, was the aforementioned Menachim Begin.

But only Arabs elect people with such pasts to lead their governments... right?

 

[EagleKeeper]

I believe that jonks was being sarcastic to the ones the denounce Israel and praise the Arabs.

 

[Lemon law]

Of course if Jonks is talking about Sadat---he might be right in saying---Arab countries had nowhere else to go politically but up, and when one of their leaders came close to peace with Israel, they killed him! Yet ironically it did no good to kill Sadat because Mubarak continues that Sadat policy.

But we never can be sure here, When Rabin was peace mongering in Israel, Rabin was killed by a fellow jew from one one the radical right settler parties.

And when Sharon became Israeli PM, he came in with a record that might make him a very viable poster child for being an international war criminal, but late in life and perhaps
ahead of the rest of Israel, he started on a path to make Israeli concessions that might have started solving what amounts to a 60 year conflict. But at the very time he was starting to get the consensus to start pushing it into a reality, Sharon was felled by a massive stroke that made Sharon and his plan a non factor.

Now Israel is stuck with the nonentity Olmert, he seems to offer no future vision that will unite Israel, and will likely, very soon, lose his job over his past record of corruption.

 

[nick1985]

Lemon Law, have you ever seen the option that says "Quote", next to "Reply"?

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Those in favor of a strike on Iran by the US, Isreal or both in joint operations...Are they expecting a "cake walk"? Iran a country of 80 million ,One of the most advanced in the 3rd world and a culture and nationhood older than the torah.

Whats going to happen when Americans: Whites, Blacks, hispanics - rich, middle class, poor, and otherwise start coming home in body bags, much, much more frequently. Or flooding of "war" into an improving Iraq, or a unstable Afghanistan?. Do the Isreali's, think Americans are going to support aggression in their name, over & over?. These words "anti-semitism" & "anti Isreal" (which have been abused by a false narritive) will be vocalized more by the population...This negativity of "support Isreal at all costs" are not that far off if they continue to goad others to fight wars for them, especially if they are not the ones dying.

Its really getting old in America, when discussing Isreal and the middleast and not agreeing with the stance of the Isreali & American governments, people get labled "anti Isreal", "Pro Isreal" or "antisemite". The American people are getting tired of it. When did it become "anti-semitism" to question foreign policy?. I see it all the time, in even the smallest mention of anything negative about Isreal or the "smallest talk at the water cooler.

If such accusations are intended to scare away any objective analysis of Middle East issues, it will eventually backfire on public opinion on fighting Isreals battles. It's how the "dual loyalty" manifest the policies themselves - that the likes of Jennifer Rubin, Bill Kristol and comrades advocate - that are so destructive, not their mere affinity for Israel. And yet they do manage to stifle rational discussion and needed debate time and again. Oh the tools they employ, cheap rhetorical devices one and all, are clear enough but by rights it just shouldn't work.

Even in the election: Why is this a legitimate political tool, to squelch debate by declaiming that someone is 'anti-Israel' when we have seen within this century the same attempt to derail a political campaign by virtue of the candidate being Catholic and therefore holding allegiance to a foreign power (ie, the Pope)? Are we to say 'Vote McCain' because his loyalties are to Israel and not the United States and 'Do not vote for Obama' because he does not sufficiently kowtow to Israeli protectionism over the welfare of the United States, it's economy, security, and safety of it's citizens?

Thus the "dual loyalty" argument, a truly damaging one, feeds the frenzied conspiracists' lust for "proof" that Jews (rather than Zionists),control the reins of government and cannot be trusted. The beating of the drums for a war with Iran will simply continue to stoke these fires and provide yet more "evidence" for those who truly are anti-semitic. So to the neocons & the Zionists I say, congratulations; by your stupidity, you've breathed life into the very creature you've supposedly sought to slay.

It is not whether or not we in the US have multiple political identities. The issue is what identity is suppressed by the doctrine of "decisionism" in regards to making war. Only one person can legitimately make the decision, and we give up our liberty (personal identity) for the benefit of his wise protection. The Right's argument is always that we put our personal interests behind the "public" interest when it comes to war, which is why war-making is so illiberal. When we "hear the call" we're no longer African-American, Irish-American, Anglo- or Jewish-American, we're just Americans, recast in the image of our leader, who must make the ultimate sacrifice for him - as us.