For the Israeli Country, Operation Cast Lead was effective.

[JohnOfSheffield]

JOS asks a totally weird question by asking, "Was the war against Afghanistan the right thing to do?"

Oddly enough JOS I too maintain the Afghan war post 911 was the right thing to do, the mere detail and triviality problem is that way the USA and Nato have conducted the Afghan military occupation has turned tragically incompetent and wrong, and as a result Nato has only shot itself in the foot as it seems bound and determined to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

WHY was it the right thing to do? Because they attacked your nation, right? Well there you go then, that is why operation Cast Lead was the right thing to do too, with much fewer casualties and a LOT less destruction, in fact, i'd say kill for kill amongst civilians the Afghanistan invasion was worse in every concievable way than operation Cast lead.

My stance on why the mission in Afghanistan failed is well known, after the removal of all fighting forces and almost all airforce support there was no chance in hell to win anymore, well, not without civilian losses far beyond what you or anyone like you would ever accept.

 

[Freshgeardude]

FGD, you are somewhat correct in saying, "you failed to mention the many arab riots and massacres that occured before the jews created groups like the haganah to defend themselves."

As you and both therefore concede there are two or more sides to the story.

What the larger world must now search for is what is fair to all sides. We cannot change a really rotten past, and now must look towards a fair balance.

But you FGD, are crazy in head if you think Israel pigging it all will be an acceptable or be a final solution.

But that is now the gauntlet Netanyuhu has cast down as any Israeli charade of fairness has now ended.

go check what I added.

there isnt more than two sides here.

there are facts. cold hard facts.

the arabs commited more massacres against the jews that the other way around.



You know, I would like a fair balance today, but "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

israel has tried to calm down on military blockades and such since 1948. their declaration calls for peace, but you can not forget that your neighbors started wars with you in 48, 67, 73, 06, 08 etc.

you can not forget the many suicide bombs, bus bombs, rocket fire, mortar fire.

Israel created methods to protect themselves. This is the underlining thing a country must do. protect themselves.

every country today thinks like this.

beyond that, countries do other things for their citizens.

 

[Lemon law]

JOS beats a dead horse in saying, "My stance on why the mission in Afghanistan failed is well known, after the removal of all fighting forces and almost all airforce support there was no chance in hell to win anymore."

Which totally ignores the question of why Nato is losing. As you cling to the demented delusion that there was ever a a military solution to Afghanistan while we ignored all political solutions. And once again Nato wore out all of its welcome because they put their interests over the interests of the Afghan people. And instead Nato found they can't sell their turd, and its just damn sad and sorry that Nato can't demonstrate they are better than the Taliban.

But yes JOS you are long on record on your views, but it never seems to occur to you that your views are not only wrong, but misguided. And worse yet for your position that has proved totally wrong by the results. As you call me wrong when I suggested that Nato must radically change policy in order to win? Well put your Nato results in your pipe and smoke it some time until you choke, because that is what your policy bought.

But point granted JOS, too many idiots in Nato agree with you, and what do we get, but stinking results. As the Taliban and Al-Quida win by default.

If you think I embrace a Nato defeat I tried to prevent, guess again.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Irrelevant BS

This thread isn't about Afghanistan and my apologies to others for letting the twat drag me into a discussion about it.

LL, get back on track or this discussion is over.

 

[Lemon law]

FGD now says, "go check what I added.

there isnt more than two sides here.

there are facts. cold hard facts."

That and total bullshit Arab, Palestinian, and Israeli propaganda. If we totally believe in the propaganda of any one one given side, we will lose sight of what is fair.

When there is a fair solution out there somewhere, and no way Jose will only the Israeli propaganda line prevail in the larger world at this time.

If you do not believe me FGD, I don't care, because it is not me that will deflate your delusions.

I still believe the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 was the right thing to do, that what the Arab Stares did was wrong as they attacked Israeli in1948 was wrong, but since then we are all still stuck on stupid.

Shall we embrace the position of stupidity now and stupidity forever that we now have?
Because the Palestinian people who did not cause this Arab Israeli conflict in the first place are still the pawns raped by all sides?

 

[Freshgeardude]

FGD now says, "go check what I added.

there isnt more than two sides here.

there are facts. cold hard facts."

That and total bullshit Arab, Palestinian, and Israeli propaganda. If we totally believe in the propaganda of any one one given side, we will lose sight of what is fair.

When there is a fair solution out there somewhere, and no way Jose will only the Israeli propaganda line prevail in the larger world at this time.

If you do not believe me FGD, I don't care, because it is not me that will deflate your delusions.

I still believe the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 was the right thing to do, that what the Arab Stares did was wrong as they attacked Israeli in1948 was wrong, but since then we are all still stuck on stupid.

Shall we embrace the position of stupidity now and stupidity forever that we now have?
Because the Palestinian people who did not cause this Arab Israeli conflict in the first place are still the pawns raped by all sides?

They committed massacres. They supported the arabs.


They continue to attack today. They are responsible for the attacks. Israel is responsible for protecting their own citizens

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

They committed massacres. They supported the arabs.


They continue to attack today. They are responsible for the attacks. Israel is responsible for protecting their own citizens

The Palestinians also know that if they have a state of their own, their own nation recognised by the UN and the world then any rocket attack would be regarded as an act of war under international law.

Would they really want that, knowing fully well that Al Aqsa won't stop?

 

[Craig234]

With this much time since asking, it appears not one person knows how many Israelis were killed by the 3,276 rockets in 2008.

Interesting that the less important statistic is so exactly known, but the more important statistic of casualties is not.

Almost as if there are propagandists who are feeding the message that serves their message. Regardless, it's a pretty bad level of being informed to discuss this.

I did see, in lieu of an answer to a simple question, a lot of words put in my mouth and discussion of what I had not said.

Someone asked what it matters if the number of Israelis killed is zero.

If so, why would that be? What type of rocket 'attacks' are these to have no casualties?

It's normal for some attacks to miss - but zero out of 3,276? It suggests these are not 'rocket attacks' as we think of the words. Like aimed at people.

It's not saying things people make up here. It's discussing the issue, getting facts.

Specifically, it does not say 'these rocket attacks - whatever they are - are not a problem for Israel at all.'

 

[JEDIYoda]

How many Israelis were killed by the 3,276 rockets in 2008?

That`s not the issue at all and you know it!

JohnOfSheffield answered this very question -- Are these rockets deadly? Were their intentions to kill Israelis?

Would you be ok with living under constant attack or would you want your nation to do something about it?

Israel could have wiped out the entire area if they wanted to, they DID show great restraint in not just doing that, much more so than any other nation i know of.

Obviousl;y you want your question answered and thats all well and good.

Now answer JohnOfSheffield`s questions?

 

[JEDIYoda]

With this much time since asking, it appears not one person knows how many Israelis were killed by the 3,276 rockets in 2008. -- it does not matter in the bigger picture - JohnOfSheffield got it right the first time whne he observed -- Would you be ok with living under constant attack or would you want your nation to do something about it?

Interesting that the less important statistic is so exactly known, but the more important statistic of casualties is not. -- only interesting to you. Would you like to live where you do know that people were firing rockets at you to harm you and missing on a regular basis??

Almost as if there are propagandists who are feeding the message that serves their message. Regardless, it's a pretty bad level of being informed to discuss this. -- no, it`s pretty low of you to insinuate that reports of rockets being fired into Israel could be made up...

I did see, in lieu of an answer to a simple question, a lot of words put in my mouth and discussion of what I had not said.

Someone asked what it matters if the number of Israelis killed is zero. - it matters alot! It would matter to you if those rockets were being fired at you!!

If so, why would that be? What type of rocket 'attacks' are these to have no casualties?
They are using whatever they can get there hands on to attack Israel. Your insinuation and logic borders on the absurd!

It's normal for some attacks to miss - but zero out of 3,276? It suggests these are not 'rocket attacks' as we think of the words. Like aimed at people.

It's not saying things people make up here. It's discussing the issue, getting facts.

Specifically, it does not say 'these rocket attacks - whatever they are - are not a problem for Israel at all.' -- It doesn`t matter if these rockets actually killed people. What matters is the fact they were done. Hand held missles or rockets are very inaccurate. Yet you cannot say honestly that you would want people firing at you with Rockets on a daily basis!!

This is a list of 2008 rocket and mortar attacks on Israel, by Hamas and Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip. This was part of a rapid escalation of attacks by Hamas on Israel. Until the ceasefire in June 19 2008 2378 rockets and mortars were launched. This is more than the 1,639 attacks launched in all of 2007, the rate of fire per month had increased more than 240%. A six-month 2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire was agreed to by both sides and began on June 19, 2008.[1] Sporadic attacks continued during the cease-fire at a vastly diminished rate; a total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November. This represented a 98% reduction in rocket fire four and a half month period prior to the signing of the ceasefire during which over 1,800 rockets were fired from Gaza.[2][3][4] On November 4, the Israeli military attacked a cross-border tunnel on the Gaza side, killing two Hamas gunman. The resulted in rocket and mortar attacks and subsequent Israel Air Force strikes on launching sites and killed an additional four Hamas gunmen. Israeli officials allege Hamas was constructing a tunnel to be used to abduct Israeli soldiers.[5] Following this event the number of rockets fired from Gaza escalated, 125 being launched in the month of November. This page lists rocket attacks on Israel by Palestinian militants. According to the Israeli military's count on December 27, 3,000 rockets hit Israel since the beginning of the year.

A total of eight people were killed by Qassam rocket, Grad rocket and mortar attacks on Israel in 2008. Four of these deaths occurred between 27-29 December[6][7].

 

[EagleKeeper]

How many Israelis were killed by the 3,276 rockets in 2008?

One death is too many.

The rocket attacks are there to inflict terror.

Israel's response to attacks have been selective targeting of the leadership and/or facilities
While it is a circle that the Palestinians love to portray themselves as the victim; they are the ones that aligned themselves with the losing side and still continue to target the civilians.

They (Pal militants) have the ability to target military/governmental targets; but they will not. Civilian targeting is much more likely to succeed with less level of a response

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

With this much time since asking, it appears not one person knows how many Israelis were killed by the 3,276 rockets in 2008.

Interesting that the less important statistic is so exactly known, but the more important statistic of casualties is not.

Almost as if there are propagandists who are feeding the message that serves their message. Regardless, it's a pretty bad level of being informed to discuss this.

I did see, in lieu of an answer to a simple question, a lot of words put in my mouth and discussion of what I had not said.

Someone asked what it matters if the number of Israelis killed is zero.

If so, why would that be? What type of rocket 'attacks' are these to have no casualties?

It's normal for some attacks to miss - but zero out of 3,276? It suggests these are not 'rocket attacks' as we think of the words. Like aimed at people.

It's not saying things people make up here. It's discussing the issue, getting facts.

Specifically, it does not say 'these rocket attacks - whatever they are - are not a problem for Israel at all.'

You do realise that the very reason is the incoming alarms and people utilising bombshelters?

Have people still been HURT on their way to their bombshelters, the answer is yes.

You try it, you try living under constant attacks and going to the bombshelter every fucking night and we'll see how long it will take before you beg, BEG and BEG your government to do something about the constant attacks.

Would it be ok if they had hit the WTC while no one was in it or died because they had gotten warned beforehand? Don't think your house would stand for the impact of one of these rockets, it would cause great damage and if you had been in the house, it would have injured you and your family.

I asked you some questions earlier though, JediYoda was kind enough to repeat them, but i really don't expect an answer.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

One death is too many.

The rocket attacks are there to inflict terror.

Israel's response to attacks have been selective targeting of the leadership and/or facilities
While it is a circle that the Palestinians love to portray themselves as the victim; they are the ones that aligned themselves with the losing side and still continue to target the civilians.

They (Pal militants) have the ability to target military/governmental targets; but they will not. Civilian targeting is much more likely to succeed with less level of a response

Yes, that is the difference that many do not get, targeting military and offensive structures and personel is military action, targeting civilians is terrorism.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe its time to redefine the question, we can say that operation cast lead was temporarily effective for Israel in the same manner that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was temporarily effective for Japan.

Now pick and choose JediY, do you embrace a temporary victory over a long term certain Israeli defeat. Don't bother to answer, because your Bozo Netanyuhu is the one who has now destroyed all world wide Israeli credibility.

And now you and I can only watch events enfold.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Maybe its time to redefine the question, we can say that operation cast lead was temporarily effective for Israel in the same manner that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was temporarily effective for Japan.

Now pick and choose JediY, do you embrace a temporary victory over a long term certain Israeli defeat. Don't bother to answer, because your Bozo Netanyuhu is the one who has now destroyed all world wide Israeli credibility.

And now you and I can only watch events enfold.

Your analogies suck so bad it's not even funny, did the US constantly bomb Japan for no reason and forced them to seek shelter? No, did the Japanese attack the US to stop these no existant attacks? No.

The defeat you wish for is not within reach, rather, IF Israel agreed to a two state solution with no more settlements, one rocket would create an opening for the international communities response against the state of Palestine and it would be nothing like you had envisioned, you can trust me on that.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Maybe its time to redefine the question, we can say that operation cast lead was temporarily effective for Israel in the same manner that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was temporarily effective for Japan.

Now pick and choose JediY, do you embrace a temporary victory over a long term certain Israeli defeat. Don't bother to answer, because your Bozo Netanyuhu is the one who has now destroyed all world wide Israeli credibility.

And now you and I can only watch events enfold.

I'm mildly amused by your advancing detachment from reality as it distances itself from your ill-informed predictions. I used to think you have the Craig234's kind of naive autism, however as you become more and more aggressive in your peculiar assertions, I'm starting to think we're dealing with Moonbeam-like insanity. At least you're not Jhhnnn-like antisemitic, yet.

 

[SamurAchzar]

With this much time since asking, it appears not one person knows how many Israelis were killed by the 3,276 rockets in 2008.

Interesting that the less important statistic is so exactly known, but the more important statistic of casualties is not.

Almost as if there are propagandists who are feeding the message that serves their message. Regardless, it's a pretty bad level of being informed to discuss this.

It somehow comes across like you think the rockets in themselves are not a problem, only causalities are. By the same token, why arrest a drunk driver as long as he didn't harm anyone?

I did see, in lieu of an answer to a simple question, a lot of words put in my mouth and discussion of what I had not said.

Someone asked what it matters if the number of Israelis killed is zero.

If so, why would that be? What type of rocket 'attacks' are these to have no casualties?

It's normal for some attacks to miss - but zero out of 3,276? It suggests these are not 'rocket attacks' as we think of the words. Like aimed at people.'

They sometimes miss, but more often it's a combination of very efficient public defense measures, consisting of scattered shelters and early warning systems. You have about 30 seconds to get in a shelter from the moment a siren is heard.
Pretty weird that the citizens of nuclear armed modern state need to live like in WWII-era London.

 

[spacejamz]

It somehow comes across like you think the rockets in themselves are not a problem, only causalities are. By the same token, why arrest a drunk driver as long as he didn't harm anyone?



They sometimes miss, but more often it's a combination of very efficient public defense measures, consisting of scattered shelters and early warning systems. You have about 30 seconds to get in a shelter from the moment a siren is heard.
Pretty weird that the citizens of nuclear armed modern state need to live like in WWII-era London.

Samur, if you dont watch your step, you are going to be called an idiot and then placed on an ignore list...

 

[werepossum]

It somehow comes across like you think the rockets in themselves are not a problem, only causalities are. By the same token, why arrest a drunk driver as long as he didn't harm anyone?

They sometimes miss, but more often it's a combination of very efficient public defense measures, consisting of scattered shelters and early warning systems. You have about 30 seconds to get in a shelter from the moment a siren is heard.
Pretty weird that the citizens of nuclear armed modern state need to live like in WWII-era London.

Weird indeed. Personally I'm amazed that the Israelis are willing to live with three hundred or so attacks a year. Were it me, each attack would be met with enough HE to level several acres around the area of launch as well as several areas I thought might be involved in getting the rockets there to be launched, where those responsible might be located, and any other area I thought might be helpful in reducing that number to zero.

Kudos to Israel for its operation and for its restraint.

 

[EagleKeeper]

It somehow comes across like you think the rockets in themselves are not a problem, only causalities are. By the same token, why arrest a drunk driver as long as he didn't harm anyone?

They sometimes miss, but more often it's a combination of very efficient public defense measures, consisting of scattered shelters and early warning systems. You have about 30 seconds to get in a shelter from the moment a siren is heard.
Pretty weird that the citizens of nuclear armed modern state need to live like in WWII-era London.

Weird indeed. Personally I'm amazed that the Israelis are willing to live with three hundred or so attacks a year. Were it me, each attack would be met with enough HE to level several acres around the area of launch as well as several areas I thought might be involved in getting the rockets there to be launched, where those responsible might be located, and any other area I thought might be helpful in reducing that number to zero.

Kudos to Israel for its operation and for its restraint.

Because of the death toll and the lobside capability; there are those that feel Israel should not do anything.

Little realizing that that then encourages the problem.

The terrorists are going to continue to push to see what the limits that they can get away with. Once the exceed those limits and Israel does a full blown retaliation; then those people will defend the terroristss because of the unproportional response. Then the UN has to come in and save their bacon again; while their PR machine goes into overdrive.

They have learned from the Arab nations of before what the UN will do to ignore the trigger and that promises made are planned on being broken.