For perfect black level - keep my Samsung LCD or get CRT instead?

[Aja27]

I just purchased a Samsung 730B and I'm not very happy with it.

The kinds of games I normally play require excellent black-levels. Playing Thief is terrible - since the game is predominantly shadowy, the entire screen looks washed out with white tint. Adjusting brightness/contrast/gamma on the OSD does not solve the problem. I'm used to a CRT, I guess, where black means actual black. Is this common to anything but the highest-end LCDs? Brighter games, like Half Life and Pyschonauts look fantastic, but those aren't the games I play the most.

There is also significant backlight bleeding from the top of the screen, and a bit from the bottom. Nothing awful, but, again, for darker games it's very noticable and irritating.

Are mid/low end LCDs just crummy for dark games like Thief and Doom, or did I just get a dud?

Can you guys recommend a good 19" (flatscreen) CRT, or do they even make them anymore??

 

[fierydemise]

Your best bet on 19" CRTs would be Samsung 997DF or Viewsonic G90F(B) they're the best around.

 

[Sonikku]

LCD's are awful when it comes to contrast ratio. As it so happens, crt tubes tend to be the best in that regard. If you need perfect blacks, you need a tube.

 

[Aja27]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Your best bet on 19" CRTs would be Samsung 997DF or Viewsonic G90F(B) they're the best around.

Is the 997MB the same (or similar) to the DF? I know I can get the MB here, not sure about the DF. The Viewsonic might be harder to come by, there don't seem to be many dealers around here.

 

[johnnqq]

i think your monitory is known for that problem...i could be wrong. believe me, you do NOT want to get a crt for games. if you already have an lcd, don't shell out more for a crt. if you have crt, don't spend for an lcd (for games at least). i'm so sick of fixing convergence on my 19in trinitron...the text will never look sharp again.

 

[Unkno]

Originally posted by: Sonikku
LCD's are awful when it comes to contrast ratio. As it so happens, crt tubes tend to be the best in that regard. If you need perfect blacks, you need a tube.

No, have you heard of SEDs?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Unkno

Originally posted by: Sonikku
LCD's are awful when it comes to contrast ratio. As it so happens, crt tubes tend to be the best in that regard. If you need perfect blacks, you need a tube.

No, have you heard of SEDs?

The problem is you can't buy SEDs today. (and won't be able to until at least 2007.)

 

[Aja27]

Originally posted by: johnnqq
i think your monitory is known for that problem...i could be wrong. believe me, you do NOT want to get a crt for games. if you already have an lcd, don't shell out more for a crt. if you have crt, don't spend for an lcd (for games at least). i'm so sick of fixing convergence on my 19in trinitron...the text will never look sharp again.

Actually I would be shelling out LESS for a CRT with a bigger screen than my current LCD, which I would be returning for a refund.

I've never heard of SEDs, but I know that 2007=expensive. CRTs are cheap as hell, flat-screened, and with good contrast ratio.

I don't care one tiny bit about how much they weigh, and my desk is large enough to accomodate two or three. All I care about is picture quality.

So, I just found out that a store near me sells both the Viewsonic and the Samsung 19" CRTs. I've heard from browsing the forums that Trinitron tubes are the best (and i believe it), but since they don't sell em anymore, I have to settle for one of the two - G90F or 997DF. Anyone?

 

[Spacecomber]

As you noted, the trinitron and the diamondtron tubes are no longer in production, but there are some sites that specialize in selling reconditioned stock, like Azatech.

Dell I think still has some of their 19" trinitron monitors available in their refurbished section.

 

[Aja27]

Looks like Azatek has some good deals - which of the 19" CRTs would you guys recommend? Are all Trinitron tubes automatically good? There's also a 19" Mitsubishi/NEC on sale with free shipping.

http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=513
http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=437
http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=742
http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=645
http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=597
http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=599

Of these, are any worth buying?

 

[natto fire]

Originally posted by: Sonikku
LCD's are awful when it comes to contrast ratio. As it so happens, crt tubes tend to be the best in that regard. If you need perfect blacks, you need a tube.

You're almost correct, but how does 200,000:1 contrast ratio sound?
Text
Only $50,000.

Also SEDs do have good blacks, but there brightness is abyssmal, 350cd/m is terrible.

 

[JRW]

I got rid of my 2001FP after running it next to my 21" Trinitron CRT for a few weeks, the main reason (among others) being very poor black levels. The problem is finding a good CRT these days.. They don't make the best high end models anymore so you're limited to a CRT based on Shadow Mask design, these have noticeably darker output and lack the contrast punch an Aperture grille / Trinitron based CRT offers, The dell 2405FPW looked very tempting due to its shear size and widescreen aspect.. but after my experience with the 2001FP I knew I wouldn't be happy with it and the thought of being stuck in 1920x1200 for gaming was just ridiculous ,so I searched around and ended up getting one of these off Ebay, its 3 years old but the seller offers a 2 year warranty and its by far the best gaming monitor I've witnessed, Theres also a thread on it here which is based on the same ebay seller.

The seller also offers a cheaper OEM version made by HP and technicaly should be the same (has identical specs)

However now that a bunch of people have bought one from this same seller (HP & Sony version) a few complained of various issues such as poor geometry, scratches on the screen and the screen lacking brightness. I havent went through the thread yet and counted which model had more complaints but I went with the original silver FW900 and the unit I recieved had none of these issues and has excellent picture quality.

Anyhow just my 2 cents

 

[yhelothar]

Yup the difference looks about right on JRW's comparison. I also switched from a 21" Sony Trinitron to a 2001FP.

Anyhow, the guy telling you to stick with LCDs because he hates fixing the convergence on his CRT, well he is right in a sense. If you buy a cheap refurb, old, and used CRT from azatek, you will get poor convergence. Almost all of these refurbs have very poor convergence. I had a few of these refurbs, until I finally got sick of all the image quality issues, that I forked out the cash for a brand new one. The difference is pretty big, you get what you pay for.
The refurbs are still worth it though, but don't expect it to look new.

 

[JRW]

Thats actualy one of the reasons I went with the FW900 on ebay ,it isnt a Refurb but rather just a normaly aged CRT. Ive heard bad things about Refurbished CRTs . it depends on if the person doing it actualy spends the time to make the proper internal adjustments ,especially if they've replaced the picture tube itself.

 

[CP5670]

I don't like LCDs for exactly the same reason, as I play the same types of games most of the time. All consumer models have this problem. You may want to stay away from refurb CRTs though as others have said. As for brand new ones, a lot depends on the manufacture date. Basically, you want to make sure you get one that was manufactured at least four months before the model went out of production. This applies to all aperture grill CRTs. Used models are probably your safest bet at this point, unless you can get the serial number before buying. You may want to look at www.accurateit.com, which seems to have a nice selection, and ebay is of course also an option.

Also SEDs do have good blacks, but there brightness is abyssmal, 350cd/m is terrible.

eh...that's better than most LCDs, which are generally 250 or 300. I'm not sure if the Brightside's 4000cd/m^2 is even a good thing, as that would be like staring into a lightbulb and would hurt your eyes after a few minutes of playing games, never mind reading text.

 

[Aja27]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. If used/refurbished are likely to cause problems, I think I'll stay away from Azatek, especially since it would be difficult to return if there were problems.

So - Trinitrons are almost out of the question, unless I can find a used one, but even then I'd still be worried.

Are the Samsung 997DF and Viewsonic GF90 that much worse than the Trinitron/Diamondtron? Bear in mind that I do not want anything larger than 19". The reason I ask is that I can buy either of those models brand new, and since they are still in production, I assume I don't have to worry about CP5760's "four month" caveat.

I haven't been able to find much info on either the samsung or the viewsonic, and I've checked not only the forums, but a Google search in general. There was one site (I think it was PCMag.com) that gave a poor score to the viewsonic, citing blurry text... I've heard a few bad things about the 997, but they were mostly CNET two-sentence reviews, which I don't really trust. What's the word? Is there a consensus?

 

[WolverineX]

CP5670, I really don't think they'll use the displays brightness capabilities continously. Otherwise, like you said, you'd go blind after playing a game. They'll use it in the manner of high dynamic range lighting for realism. The difference being, opposed to lcd's, the blacks will be pitch black and the whites will be pure white but not 'lightbulb' bright. In my opinion, this would be a monitor actually worth paying money for. Mind you, not 50 thousand, but in time the prices will drop.

 

[CP5670]

Are the Samsung 997DF and Viewsonic GF90 that much worse than the Trinitron/Diamondtron? Bear in mind that I do not want anything larger than 19". The reason I ask is that I can buy either of those models brand new, and since they are still in production, I assume I don't have to worry about CP5760's "four month" caveat.

The deal with the four months is that both Sony and Mitsubishi pretty much removed all quality control constraints in the few months before they stopped making their AG tubes and released some absolute junk into the market during those periods. So if you get a brand new one without knowing its serial number (from which the date can be usually be determined), chances are that it will be one of the late manufactures and will have all kinds of problems (speaking from personal experience here). The monitors with tubes made before those periods are fantastic, but you can pretty much only get those used these days.

The 997DF is supposed to be pretty good as far as shadow masks go. I haven't seen it in person, but a few others around here have it and like it. That being said, aperture grill CRTs, especially the extended brightness ones, are indeed far better than shadow masks in my experience. I have a pretty decent 21" NEC shadow mask on an older computer and it looks a lot worse than the aperture grill on my main machine in games.

It's kind of a bad time to be buying a monitor right now, to be honest. Current LCDs have numerous issues and good CRTs (in good condition) are becoming increasingly hard to find. Even the glossy coating LCDs are still very rare and resolution limited. Hopefully SEDs will change all this.

CP5670, I really don't think they'll use the displays brightness capabilities continously. Otherwise, like you said, you'd go blind after playing a game. They'll use it in the manner of high dynamic range lighting for realism. The difference being, opposed to lcd's, the blacks will be pitch black and the whites will be pure white but not 'lightbulb' bright. In my opinion, this would be a monitor actually worth paying money for. Mind you, not 50 thousand, but in time the prices will drop.

I guess if it's only used for HDR rendering it wouldn't be too bad, although a lot would then depend on how games make use of the additional brightness. It may be appropriate when you look at the sun or something in a game, but many games at the moment tend to overdo the HDR effects. It would be a great display if it wasn't for the exorbitant price and the fairly low resolution (for that price), although I think it's actually meant to be used as a TV rather than a computer monitor.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Captain Howdy
Also SEDs do have good blacks, but there brightness is abyssmal, 350cd/m is terrible.

They have the same brightness as a CRT does, and it's 400 cd/m² at the moment. With a 100000:1 contrast ratio, that makes the black level 0.004 cd/m², a very compelling choice for a graphics professional.

 

[VIAN]

That is a major problem with LCDs, I also find it annoying. CRT is your way to Blackness.

 

[Sentry2]

Originally posted by: JRW
Thats actualy one of the reasons I went with the FW900 on ebay ,it isnt a Refurb but rather just a normaly aged CRT. Ive heard bad things about Refurbished CRTs . it depends on if the person doing it actualy spends the time to make the proper internal adjustments ,especially if they've replaced the picture tube itself.

I was looking at the FW900's but I could only find the beige HP version and it was still almost $700. How do you like yours? I'm pretty happy with the 22" IBM c220p I picked up. Very clear and the colors are awesome + 2048x1536@75 is a standard supported res and refresh. That FW900 looks very nice though...I want one

 

[jotosuds]

i swear cheap CRT"s off ebay... i got my 21" Trinitron for $120. that's just too cheap to pass up for gaming goodness.

 

[JRW]

Originally posted by: Sentry2

Originally posted by: JRW
Thats actualy one of the reasons I went with the FW900 on ebay ,it isnt a Refurb but rather just a normaly aged CRT. Ive heard bad things about Refurbished CRTs . it depends on if the person doing it actualy spends the time to make the proper internal adjustments ,especially if they've replaced the picture tube itself.

I was looking at the FW900's but I could only find the beige HP version and it was still almost $700. How do you like yours? I'm pretty happy with the 22" IBM c220p I picked up. Very clear and the colors are awesome + 2048x1536@75 is a standard supported res and refresh. That FW900 looks very nice though...I want one

Love the FW900 , The picture quality is on par with my 21" Sony G520P which I bought new from newegg alittle over 2 years ago ,The FW900 is basicly like having a widescreen version of it (especially considering the case / silver color scheme is the same) The only thing the FW900 lacks is the Dynamic mode toggle button on the front which was a convienant thing to have when playing games / watching movies. But the FW900 gets plenty bright with the contrast set at 90 which is the highest I've used so far.

I play a lot of games which makes having a widescreen display even better , Even if a game doesnt support widescreen modes you can stretch it to fill the screen or just let it have the black bars on the sides and still get around a 18" viewing area. Games like FarCry and Half Life 2 have native widescreen support and look great. Also watching widescreen movies is nice ,especially 1080i content.

 

[PrayForDeath]

In college I use an iMac G5 for designe, and the blackness of the screen looks very satisfying to me. I have a 19" NEC CRT at home though.

 

[Aja27]

My options are kinda limited now. I can either exchange my Samsung for another Samsung (hopefully one without the backlight bleeding problems) and get used to crummy black levels, or I can get a CRT.

As far as CRTs go, I don't have many options:
-Samsung 997DF/MB
-Viewsonic GF90
-NEC FE990
-Phillips 109b
-that is all.

What are the odds of me getting a replacement Samsung without the backlight bleeding problems? My model is a 730B, but I just noticed that they have a 740B now for about the same price. The specs look similar, but I don't know - are there any differences? If I were to upgrade to a 700:1 contrast ratio monitor would I notice an improvement?


Since CRTs are cheaper, maybe I should return the Samsung, get a CRT and wait until LCD technology improves (and cheapens!).

edit - are there ANY new Trinitron/Diamondtron CRTS commonly available?