For GOP, it's the social issues, stupid

[nehalem256]

On abortion, nothing the right has proposed comes anywhere near the extremity of taxpayer-funded abortions.



To govern is to enforce a brand of morality. There's no way around that.



There is a place for social conservatism, in that a healthy culture needs some norms. What norms do social liberals propose that do not equally fall prey to their own universal solvent (that social norms have no ultimately reasonable basis)?

Social liberals are the ones that made single motherhood normal and then complain about how hard single mothers have it...

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Social liberals are the ones that made single motherhood normal and then complain about how hard single mothers have it...

Social conservatives are the ones who told my mother that she was unfit to raise my brother because of her sexual orientation and placed him in a home with a physically abusive father instead.

 

[zsdersw]

On abortion, nothing the right has proposed comes anywhere near the extremity of taxpayer-funded abortions.

You're against abortion in all circumstances, anyway.. so I find your sense of what's extreme and what's not to be distorted.

To govern is to enforce a brand of morality. There's no way around that.

Instead of just mint or just chocolate chip, I want mint chocolate chip. That "brand" is a mix that is better than either of its individual components alone.

There is a place for social conservatism, in that a healthy culture needs some norms. What norms do social liberals propose that do not equally fall prey to their own universal solvent (that social norms have no ultimately reasonable basis)?

Norms are an unavoidable consequence of our innate desire to emulate others. Changes to those norms are also an unavoidable consequence of our innate desire to be unique. Social conservatism wants those norms to change as little and as infrequently as possible because their religious beliefs or other traditions tell them so. Social liberals are content to let those norms change at whatever pace society dictates.

 

[Atreus21]

You're against abortion in all circumstances, anyway.. so I find your sense of what's extreme and what's not to be distorted.

No I'm not. I'm not against it in cases of rape or when the mother's life is threatened.

Instead of just mint or just chocolate chip, I want mint chocolate chip. That "brand" is a mix that is better than either of its individual components alone.

Fair enough.

Norms are an unavoidable consequence of our innate desire to emulate others. Changes to those norms are also an unavoidable consequence of our innate desire to be unique. Social conservatism wants those norms to change as little and as infrequently as possible. Social liberals let those norms change at their own pace.

Disagree. Social Conservatives want those norms to change when the norms are bad. The disagreement occurs where liberals and conservatives can't agree on what bad is. And in my experience, the only bad norm, to a social liberal, is a norm that hasn't been watered down to essentially no substance.

 

[Thump553]

. . . And in my experience, the only bad norm, to a social liberal, is a norm that hasn't been watered down to essentially no substance.

That is the type of bogus mischaracterization (lsimilar to that which you hear from partisan Republicans all the time-that Democrats want to solve all problems through more government) that really gets under my skin.

So-called social conservatives absolutely delight in outlawing behavior that offends them and, more importantly, behavior they don't do. OTOH any time the government regulates their behavior they have a hissy fit and scream socialism and big government. What they want is a government exactly tailored to their individual desires and everyone else fall into line or be damned.

A social liberal is someone who balances the legitimite need of the government to regulate some moral behavior (murder, theft, pollution affecting others) against a set of protected rights. Social liberals tend to be biased in favor of protecting such rights versus regulating behavior. Social liberalism is the central principle upon which the United States was founded and also the reason it grew to be the envy of the rest of the world.

 

[nehalem256]

Social conservatives are the ones who told my mother that she was unfit to raise my brother because of her sexual orientation and placed him in a home with a physically abusive father instead.

BS. Do you know how hard it is for a father to get custody of a child if the mother wants it too?

 

[lotus503]

BS. Do you know how hard it is for a father to get custody of a child if the mother wants it too?

Not hard at all, in most cases this ends with joint custody, in most cases both parents wanting custody is a good thing.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

BS. Do you know how hard it is for a father to get custody of a child if the mother wants it too?

I appreciate that you think this is bullshit, but this actually happened to my family. 1970s, rural Californian farming town. The father was an abusive drunk, but because my mother had come out as a lesbian, the judge awarded the father full custody with no visitation rights. My mother literally kidnapped her own son to get him away from the abuse and fled the country to hide from the father. And my brother is glad she did it.

In those days, being gay was seen as worse than being abusive, and made you unfit to be around children.

 

[nehalem256]

I appreciate that you think this is bullshit, but this actually happened to my family. 1970s, rural Californian farming town. The father was an abusive drunk, but because my mother had come out as a lesbian, the judge awarded the father full custody with no visitation rights. My mother literally kidnapped her own son to get him away from the abuse and fled the country to hide from the father. And my brother is glad she did it.

In those days, being gay was seen as worse than being abusive, and made you unfit to be around children.

So your mother had a child with an abusive alcoholic and is a kidnapper.

Yeah what a great person to have raising a child

EDIT: I wonder what would be sad about a man who kidnapped his child from the mother?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

So your mother had a child with an abusive alcoholic and is a kidnapper.

Yeah what a great person to have raising a child

EDIT: I wonder what would be sad about a man who kidnapped his child from the mother?

You don't have to like me or agree with me, you don't even have to be civil with me. But don't start insulting my family or question my mother's ability to raise children. That's a line I would think even you could respect.

As for your follow-up question, if the roles were reversed and an abusive alcoholic woman was given sole custody of her child because the father was gay, I would hope that people would support a father who took whatever means he thought necessary to save his kid from that situation. Children shouldn't be forced out of the hands of a loving parent who is capable of providing for them based solely on bigotry.

 

[nehalem256]

You don't have to like me or agree with me, you don't even have to be civil with me. But don't start insulting my family or question my mother's ability to raise children. That's a line I would think even you could respect.

Why? You seem to have no problems with questioning the ability of a man to raise his child.

I mean its not like your mother would have any incentive to lie about her ex-husband right?

Trust me, it would not even be the worst lie I have heard a mother tell her children about her ex-husband.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Why? You seem to have no problems with questioning the ability of a man to raise his child.

I mean its not like your mother would have any incentive to lie about her ex-husband right?

Trust me, it would not even be the worst lie I have heard a mother tell her children about her ex-husband.

Yeah, except my brother confirmed her story. He was around 11-12 when this happened, so old enough to know when someone was getting drunk and beating him or his mother up. And just so you don't discount his story immediately, he's a male, with no trace of a vagina or other lady-bits. You know, none of those genetic things that turn people into complete liars in your mind (women).

Any other fact-checking you want to try out there before you go shitting on my family again? Apparently my initial request was just too difficult for you to comprehend.

 

[zsdersw]

No I'm not. I'm not against it in cases of rape or when the mother's life is threatened.

I still think your view of what's "extreme" is distorted.

Disagree. Social Conservatives want those norms to change when the norms are bad. The disagreement occurs where liberals and conservatives can't agree on what bad is. And in my experience, the only bad norm, to a social liberal, is a norm that hasn't been watered down to essentially no substance.

Our experiences differ.

 

[Fern]

From what I understand, a majority of the country believe that the only way to balance the budget is with a combination of spending cuts and tax hikes. If I agree with that, I believe that would make me a centrist on this issue. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Saying I am wrong doesn't count. Back up your claims with some actual logic.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but wanted to add that, at least IMO, a recovered economy is a BIG part of being able to balance the budget. Without it, we have no chance.

Fern

 

[werepossum]

The only majority that exists on spending cuts/tax hikes is "raise everyone else's taxes but mine and cut spending but don't touch services I rely on". That is the dysfunctional nature of the majority of the electorate... and what would be considered "centrist" if what defines centrist is the majority opinion.

Tax hikes for other people are highly popular. Tax hikes for yourself are not.

Spending cuts and shrinking government is highly popular. Spending cuts or reforms to the biggest-ticket items in the federal budget are not.

Exactly right. There's a reason our leaders are craptastic; we require it.

I appreciate that you think this is bullshit, but this actually happened to my family. 1970s, rural Californian farming town. The father was an abusive drunk, but because my mother had come out as a lesbian, the judge awarded the father full custody with no visitation rights. My mother literally kidnapped her own son to get him away from the abuse and fled the country to hide from the father. And my brother is glad she did it.

In those days, being gay was seen as worse than being abusive, and made you unfit to be around children.

The law's always the law, but the law is not always moral. Kudos to your mom for risking her own freedom to save her son from abuse.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but wanted to add that, at least IMO, a recovered economy is a BIG part of being able to balance the budget. Without it, we have no chance.

Fern

Quite true, but - how to fix it? Stimulus lasts only as long as the government largess driving it. Tax cuts for consumers increase spending, but mostly on foreign-made stuff, sending part of that money out of our economy. Tax cuts for the wealthy encourage investment, but not necessarily in America, and even then money invested in the stock market is great for stock prices and permits individuals and companies to create and expand but do little to encourage such behavior or make it more practical and profitable. I see no easy answers.