For Fallujan refugees, it's the worst of times

[BBond]

Allawi said the Fallujah operation is a significant success. Bush's Mini Me. Total corruption is their common denominator.

Every notice how we NEVER see ANY pictures from Fallujah on the news anymore? I wonder why?

For Fallujan refugees, it's the worst of times

Friday, January 14, 2005
BY BORZOU DARAGAHI
For the Star-Ledger

BAGHDAD -- Wafat Hassan is at hope's end, her tale a long stream of woe that has all but dried her tears.

After losing her husband, her house and her hometown, she and her five children, the youngest age 4, wound up at a Baghdad mosque-turned-refugee camp for Fallujans turned out of their city. About 930 people have come to call the camp home.

"What have we done to deserve this?" she cries. "When can we move back to our homes? Shall we be away from our homes forever?"

Two months after Fallujah became a major battleground between U.S. forces and insurgents, many of those who fled are floundering. To them, the upcoming election seems a universe away.

"You give a drowning man a life jacket," said Sheik Hussein Zubayee, a Fallujah native who turned the Mostafa Mosque he oversees into the makeshift camp. "You don't give him a sandwich."

During the last six months of 2004, U.S. troops, aided by Iraq's nascent armed forces, stormed not only Fallujah but other centers of the insurgency, including Tal Afar, Samarra and Ramadi. The stated goal was to root out militants determined to disrupt the Jan. 30 vote.

Interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, who approved the Fallujah assault in November, this week called the operation "a significant success in terms of getting the terrorists and ridding the Fallujah people (of) terrorists and insurgents."

But the military action embittered many Sunni Triangle residents whose lives were disrupted, and now they appear unwilling to answer the call of government leaders urging them to vote. A massive Sunni Arab boycott of the election would create a government heavily weighted toward Shi'a Arabs and Iraqi Kurds, and likely would further alienate the Sunni Arab minority at the heart of the insurgency.

But as Hassan's saga shows, suffering can befall Fallujans in a multitude of ways: at the hands of fellow Iraqis, by the weapons of U.S. forces or as a mere consequence of brittle luck.

Fortune began frowning on her about a year ago, when bandits killed her husband while hijacking his car.

About four months ago, the insurgents kicked her out of her home, turning it into a resistance hideout. In November, an American missile flattened the house. Then, her elderly mother got sick.

She scrounged for money to get medication, but nothing seemed to work. About 10 days ago, her cash ran out, and she was kicked out of the small apartment she was renting in Baghdad. She brought her family to Zubayee's camp.

"At least I have food to eat here," she says as she weeps over her mother, who is still ill.

Inside Fallujah, about 40 miles west of Baghdad, Marines continue to come under fire, engage in skirmishes and seize weapons caches. However, a timetable set by the interim government allowed some residents to return home beginning Dec. 23. All the city's neighborhoods will be open for returnees today.

The number of people who have returned is unclear. The interim government put the figure at 60,000, but the U.N. relief agency said Tuesday that only 8,500 of the city's 300,000 residents have come home.

While many Fallujans have returned to inspect their homes, only a small fraction has remained, said Jennifer Pagonis, spokeswoman for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.

The Fallujans from Zubayee's camp who have dared to visit their homes have come away horrified. The fighting has all but destroyed the city, which had emerged almost unscathed from the March 2003 invasion.

Mohammad al-Rawa, a university student, said he found his home destroyed and 90 percent of his neighborhood in ruins.

"There's no water, there's no electricity," he said. "No one can live in the city anymore. Even electricity poles are missing."

According to the Ministry of Industry, which is supervising infrastructure projects in the city, people have running water and electricity for several hours every day.

The interim government has earmarked millions to rebuild Fallujah and has promised families whose homes were damaged or destroyed up to $10,000 each -- about one-fifth of the cost of building a new home in Iraq. Each returning family will also receive about $100 to get started and $500 later, the government said.

Back at the Baghdad mosque, residents try to make the best of their situation.

Zubayee said a group of Americans wanted to donate $25,000 to those living at his camp, but the residents refused the money because they blame Americans for their suffering.

As for the elections, residents of the camp say the game's been fixed, against them and their fellow Sunnis.

"I'm a part of the Sunnis," said Mohammad al-Dulaymi, 45, whose appliance store and home both were destroyed in the fighting. "If I know it will be free and honest elections, I will vote. But I know that the Americans will put whomever they want in there. So I won't vote."

 

[Sultan]

 

[Grunt03]

Hey, your missing the point.
The war in Iraq will bring great change for the people. By the end of the war, they will have a new country, new leader and a new city.

Let look at it like an extream city make over........:laugh:

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: BBond

Zubayee said a group of Americans wanted to donate $25,000 to those living at his camp, but the residents refused the money because they blame Americans for their suffering.

(shakes head) fools, sounds similiar to some haters i've seen in the US.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: BBond

Zubayee said a group of Americans wanted to donate $25,000 to those living at his camp, but the residents refused the money because they blame Americans for their suffering.

(shakes head) fools, sounds similiar to some haters i've seen in the US.

Yeah, real fools. Refusing aid from the people whose government destroyed their lives.

But this is just an aside. Not the main topic of the OP.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: BBond

Zubayee said a group of Americans wanted to donate $25,000 to those living at his camp, but the residents refused the money because they blame Americans for their suffering.

(shakes head) fools, sounds similiar to some haters i've seen in the US.

Yeah, real fools. Refusing aid from the people whose government destroyed their lives.

But this is just an aside. Not the main topic of the OP.

It looks like not many people are discussing the main topic of the OP so I would like to go back to this.

I think its foolish that they are refusing aid from a group of Americans just because they are Americans. I think its similiar to what a few people in the US think that just because Iran's government supports terrorist groups that all Iranians are evil terrorists. They are not separating the people's actions from the government's. More than 50 years ago the Chinese came to Taiwan and set up a corrupt and repressive government that ended up killing 20,000 Taiwanese people. Do I hate all Chinese in Taiwan because of what they're government did? No. Does my mother hate Chinese people because they're government caused the death of her grandmother? No. Do I hate Chinese people because China's government has a threatening policy against Taiwan? No. So thats why I think these Fallujah residents were foolish to slap away a helping hand just because the hand was American. These Americans probably were anti-Bush, anti-war and wanted to help the people hurt by the actions of the American government that they didn't agree with. Why turn them away?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: BBond

Zubayee said a group of Americans wanted to donate $25,000 to those living at his camp, but the residents refused the money because they blame Americans for their suffering.

(shakes head) fools, sounds similiar to some haters i've seen in the US.

Yeah, real fools. Refusing aid from the people whose government destroyed their lives.

But this is just an aside. Not the main topic of the OP.

It looks like not many people are discussing the main topic of the OP so I would like to go back to this.

I think its foolish that they are refusing aid from a group of Americans just because they are Americans. I think its similiar to what a few people in the US think that just because Iran's government supports terrorist groups that all Iranians are evil terrorists. They are not separating the people's actions from the government's. More than 50 years ago the Chinese came to Taiwan and set up a corrupt and repressive government that ended up killing 20,000 Taiwanese people. Do I hate all Chinese in Taiwan because of what they're government did? No. Does my mother hate Chinese people because they're government caused the death of her grandmother? No. Do I hate Chinese people because China's government has a threatening policy against Taiwan? No. So thats why I think these Fallujah residents were foolish to slap away a helping hand just because the hand was American. These Americans probably were anti-Bush, anti-war and wanted to help the people hurt by the actions of the American government that they didn't agree with. Why turn them away?

TBH, I couldn't think of any reason to refuse the help.. I hate the Chinese Govt but not the people.. I feel sorry for the people who have to deal with the repressive Chinese Communist Regime.


And.. if these fallujihans are in a position to refuse help then why are they even complaining

 

[sandorski]

Not possible! Only a few percent of buildings were damaged in the attack!!!

So some have claimed. :roll:

 

[jpeyton]

Some of you underestimate the amount of "filtering" the military does to the news coming out of Iraq. Fallujah is a perfect example of a balogny operation that really did little to hurt the insurgency.

In fact, going by the Fallujan's accounts, it has fueled it.

 

[Votingisanillusion]

News Stories Emerge
From Fallujah
By Dahr Jamail
2-9-5


These are the stories that will continue to emerge from the rubble of Fallujah for years. No, for generations

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the doctor sits with me in a hotel room in Amman, where he is now a refugee. He'd spoken about what he saw in Fallujah in the UK, and now is under threat by the US military if he returns to Iraq.

"I started speaking about what happened in Fallujah during both sieges in order to raise awareness, and the Americans raided my house three times," he says, talking so fast I can barely keep up. He is driven to tell what he's witnessed, and as a doctor working inside Fallujah, he has video and photographic proof of all that he tells me.

"I entered Fallujah with a British medical and humanitarian convoy at the end of December, and stayed until the end of January," he explains, "But I was in Fallujah before that to work with people and see what their needs were, so I was in there since the beginning of December."

When I ask him to explain what he saw when he first entered Fallujah in December he says it was like a tsunami struck the city.

"Fallujah is surrounded by refugee camps where people are living in tents and old cars," he explains, "It reminded me of Palestinian refugees. I saw children coughing because of the cold, and there are no medicines. Most everyone left their houses with nothing, and no money, so how can they live depending only on humanitarian aid?"

The doctors says that in one refugee camp in the northern area of Fallujah there were 1,200 students living in seven tents.

"The disaster caused by this siege is so much worse than the first one, which I witnessed first hand," he says, and then tells me he'll use one story as an example.

"One story is of a young girl who is 16 years old," he says of one of the testimonies he video taped recently, "She stayed for three days with the bodies of her family who were killed in their home. When the soldiers entered she was in her home with her father, mother, 12 year-old brother and two sisters. She watched the soldiers enter and shoot her mother and father directly, without saying anything."

The girl managed to hide behind the refrigerator with her brother and witnessed the war crimes first-hand.

"They beat her two sisters, then shot them in the head," he said. After this her brother was enraged and ran at the soldiers while shouting at them, so they shot him dead.

"She continued hiding after the soldiers left and stayed with her sisters because they were bleeding, but still alive. She was too afraid to call for help because she feared the soldiers would come back and kill her as well. She stayed for three days, with no water and no food. Eventually one of the American snipers saw her and took her to the hospital," he added before reminding me again that he had all of her testimony documented on film.

He briefly told me of another story he documented of a mother who was in her home during the siege. "On the fifth day of the siege her home was bombed, and the roof fell on her son, cutting his legs off," he says while using his hands to make cutting motions on his legs, "For hours she couldn't go outside because they announced that anyone going in the street would be shot. So all she could do was wrap his legs and watch him die before her eyes."

He pauses for a few deep breaths, then continues, "All I can say is that Fallujah is like it was struck by a tsunami. There weren't many families in there after the siege, but they had absolutely nothing. The suffering was beyond what you can imagine. When the Americans finally let us in people were fighting just for a blanket."

"One of my colleagues, Dr. Saleh Alsawi, he was speaking so angrily about them. He was in the main hospital when they raided it at the beginning of the seige. They entered the theater room when they were working on a patienthe was there because he's an anesthesiologist. They entered with their boots on, beat the doctors and took them out, leaving the patient on the table to die."

This story has already been reported in the Arab media.

The doctor tells me of the bombing of the Hay Nazal clinic during the first week of the siege.

"This contained all the foreign aid and medical instruments we had. All the US military commanders knew this, because we told them about it so they wouldn't bomb it. But this was one of the clinics bombed, and in the first week of the siege they bombed it two times."

He then adds, "Of course they targeted all our ambulances and doctors. Everyone knows this."

The doctor tells me he and some other doctors are trying to sue the US military for the following incident, for which he has the testimonial evidence on tape.

It is a story I was told by several refugees in Baghdad as wellat the end of last November while the siege was still in progress.

"During the second week of the siege they entered and announced that all the families have to leave their homes and meet at an intersection in the street while carrying a white flag. They gave them 72 hours to leave and after that they would be considered an enemy," he says.

"We documented this story with video-a family of 12, including a relative and his oldest child who was 7 years old. They heard this instruction, so they left with all their food and money they could carry, and white flags. When they reached the intersection where the families were accumulating, they heard someone shouting 'Now!' in English, and shooting started everywhere."

The family was all carrying white flags, as instructed, according to the young man who gave his testimony. Yet he watched his mother and father shot by snipers-his mother in the head and his father shot in the heart. His two aunts were shot, then his brother was shot in the neck. The man stated that when he raised himself from the ground to shout for help, he was shot in the side.

"After some hours he raised his arm for help and they shot his arm," continues the doctor, "So after awhile he raised his hand and they shot his hand."

A six year-old boy of the family was standing over the bodies of his parents, crying, and he too was then shot.

"Anyone who raised up was shot," adds the doctor, then added again that he had photographs of the dead as well as photos of the gunshot wounds of the survivors.

"Once it grew dark some of them along with this man who spoke with me, with his child and sister-in-law and sister managed to crawl away after it got dark. They crawled to a building and stayed for 8 days. They had one cup of water and gave it to the child. They used cooking oil to put on their wounds which were of course infected, and found some roots and dates to eat."

He stops here. His eyes look around the room as cars pass by outside on wet streetswater hissing under their tires.

He left Fallujah at the end of January, so I ask him what it was like when he left recently.

"Now maybe 25% of the people have returned, but there are still no doctors. The hatred now of Fallujans against every American is incredible, and you cannot blame them. The humiliation at the checkpoints is only making people even angrier," he tells me.

"I've been there, and I saw that anyone who even turns their head is threatened and hit by both American and Iraqi soldiers alikeone man did this, and when the Iraqi soldier tried to humiliate him, the man took a gun of a nearby soldier and killed two ING, so then of course he was shot."

The doctor tells me they are keeping people in the line for several hours at a time, in addition to the US military making propaganda films of the situation.

"And I've seen them use the media-and on January 2nd at the north checkpoint in the north part of Fallujah, they were giving people $200 per family to return to Fallujah so they can film them in the linewhen actually, at that time, nobody was returning to Fallujah," he says. It reminds me of the story my colleague told me of what he saw in January. At that time a CNN crew was escorted in by the military to film street cleaners that were brought in as props, and soldiers handing out candy to children.

"You must understand the hatred that has been causedit has gotten more difficult for Iraqis, including myself, to make the distinction between the American government and the American people," he tells me.

His story is like countless others.

"My cousin was a poor man in Fallujah," he explains, "He walked from his house to work and back, while living with his wife and five daughters. In July of 2003, American soldiers entered his house and woke them all up. They drug them into the main room of the house, and executed my cousin in front of his family. Then they simply left."

He pauses then holds up his hands and asks, "Now, how are these people going to feel about Americans?"

(c)2004, 2005 Dahr Jamail.
All images and text are protected by United States and international copyright law. If you would like to reprint Dahr's Dispatches on the web, you need to include this copyright notice and a prominent link to the DahrJamailIraq.com website. Any other use of images and text including, but not limited to, reproduction, use on another website, copying and printing requires the permission of Dahr Jamail. Of course, feel free to forward Dahr's dispatches via email.

 

[BBond]

Americans sit comfortably in their homes praising the war criminals who are responsible for the myriad atrocities we are visiting on Iraq -- all based on lies.

We have a thread here in P&N which arrogantly asks , "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" And another thread boasting of Bush's "staggering" approval rating.

This is a mad hatter's world. It's a world turned upside down, inside out. It's all wrong. No one, no matter what excuse they concoct, what evidence they fabricate, no matter how they manage to control the propoganda, can commit these acts without repercussions, without accountability. Unless that someone is George Bush and those who are charged with demanding accountability are the now morally bankrupt American people.

No one in their right mind can believe what we are doing in Iraq is excusable for any reason. Yet we are there murdering Iraqi civilians and committing all manner of unspeakable atrocities for what in the final analysis is no reason whatsoever.

 

[imported_Condor]

You know, if they had just cleaned their own litter box.......

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

While some sad little people in the US sit comfortably behind their computers bashing the US admin all day, others are doing real work:

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/041122/2004112207.html

With that as a backdrop, let me turn it over to Ambassador Taylor, who can update you as well and give you some specifics on the situation in Fallujah. Thank you.

TAYLOR: Thank you, Charlie.

On Fallujah, as you know, the successful military operation needs to be followed by an equally successful reconstruction operation. The Marines, who have been doing most of the work along with Army and working very closely with the Iraqi forces, have done a lot of preparation for the reconstruction in Fallujah. They have focused their attention on preparing for humanitarian work. They've pre-positioned a lot of stocks of food and water and medicine. They have been preparing to start up on small reconstruction projects, in particular those that will restore essential services. So people are taking a look and assessing what the problems are with electricity distribution lines, for example, and sewer lines, water treatment in order to get clean water to people. We will then be able to move into the smaller projects of schools and clinics, and then eventually get to the larger projects that will -- that have been planned for some time but have not been able to move forward during the past several months.

This, as I said, is a carefully coordinated program. We are working very closely with the Iraqi government. The Iraqi government has designated a Cabinet minister, Minister Hassani, who is the Minister of Industry and Minerals, to be the lead for the Iraqi government in this reconstruction effort. So he and I have met now two times. Our staffs have gotten together. The ministries of electricity and health and water resources, municipalities have gotten together with our folks in terms of the Marines and the Army, who are going to undertake these efforts, to coordinate that work. They've put up a good amount of money. We have some funds identified that will allow us to move forward on this reconstruction. As I say, this will be as important as the military operation in order to consolidate the victory.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1309089/posts

December 27, 2004

Release Number: 04-12-57

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

RECONSTRUCTION UPDATE FOR FALLUJAH

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- Navy Civil Engineer Corps officers assigned to the Officer in Charge of Construction detachment of the I Marine Expeditionary Force Engineer Group have administered seven Fallujah reconstruction contracts for rubble removal, dewatering and pipe repair, and potable water tank installation.

According to OICC Officer in Charge Cmdr. Mark Bergin, four Iraqi firms are currently working under a 20-day task order contract for rubble removal. The task order option offers flexibility if additional time or effort is needed to complete the work. U.S. Marines, Navy Seabees and National Guardsmen are also involved in debris removal operations.

Two additional Iraqi contractors are conducting dewatering and pipe repair work and installing potable water tanks at predetermined locations throughout the city. Each site will include three or four 10,000-liter tanks.

A contract for engineering assessment of a courthouse is currently underway, with repairs to follow. Assessments of four other key government buildings are currently in the negotiation stage. These contracts are primarily funded through the Commander’s Emergency Response Program, a combination of Interim Iraqi Government money or congressionally appropriated funds.

The I Marine Expeditionary Force Engineer Group is working in tandem with the Civil Military Operations Center and the Interim Fallujah Municipal Council to identify and prioritize reconstruction needs within the city.

Photos are available by e-mailing the Combined Press Information Center at cpicpressdesk@baghdadforum.com.

 

[Passions]

Many they should have thought twice before harboring terrorists next time. Hope it taught them a lesson.

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: BBond
Americans sit comfortably in their homes praising the war criminals who are responsible for the myriad atrocities we are visiting on Iraq -- all based on lies.

We have a thread here in P&N which arrogantly asks , "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" And another thread boasting of Bush's "staggering" approval rating.

This is a mad hatter's world. It's a world turned upside down, inside out. It's all wrong. No one, no matter what excuse they concoct, what evidence they fabricate, no matter how they manage to control the propoganda, can commit these acts without repercussions, without accountability. Unless that someone is George Bush and those who are charged with demanding accountability are the now morally bankrupt American people.

No one in their right mind can believe what we are doing in Iraq is excusable for any reason. Yet we are there murdering Iraqi civilians and committing all manner of unspeakable atrocities for what in the final analysis is no reason whatsoever.

bbond must be french. eurowhinnnnnnnnnne and cheese.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Passions
Many they should have thought twice before harboring terrorists next time. Hope it taught them a lesson.

which terrorists were they harbouring?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Passions
Many they should have thought twice before harboring terrorists next time. Hope it taught them a lesson.

which terrorists were they harbouring?

Iraqis in their own homes are now classified terrorists by the terrorists running America.

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Passions
Many they should have thought twice before harboring terrorists next time. Hope it taught them a lesson.

which terrorists were they harbouring?

The ones that strung up 4 American contractors.

Al Zaquari.



sheesh the limited memory of some people.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Passions
Many they should have thought twice before harboring terrorists next time. Hope it taught them a lesson.

which terrorists were they harbouring?

To answer your question, why do you think we went into Falluja.

Or are you trying to delinitate between a certain type of killer?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: BBond
Americans sit comfortably in their homes praising the war criminals who are responsible for the myriad atrocities we are visiting on Iraq -- all based on lies.

We have a thread here in P&N which arrogantly asks , "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" And another thread boasting of Bush's "staggering" approval rating.

This is a mad hatter's world. It's a world turned upside down, inside out. It's all wrong. No one, no matter what excuse they concoct, what evidence they fabricate, no matter how they manage to control the propoganda, can commit these acts without repercussions, without accountability. Unless that someone is George Bush and those who are charged with demanding accountability are the now morally bankrupt American people.

No one in their right mind can believe what we are doing in Iraq is excusable for any reason. Yet we are there murdering Iraqi civilians and committing all manner of unspeakable atrocities for what in the final analysis is no reason whatsoever.

Seems like the Iraqis are doing very well murdering there own before and afterwards.

Be interesting to take a look at the numbers provided for casualities from pre 2003 and afterwards.

Then break out how many were killed by Iraqis, Iranians and others.

 

[cannedcreamcorn]

Passions must be American....blustering insults without any useful response.

If you're incapable of fomenting a rational thought, why post at all? I could write your a bot that would randomly post "frenchy cheese eater" to as many forums as you like and the effect would be the same.

 

[MidasKnight]

Originally posted by: Passions
Many they should have thought twice before harboring terrorists next time. Hope it taught them a lesson.

:thumbsup:

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: BBond
Americans sit comfortably in their homes praising the war criminals who are responsible for the myriad atrocities we are visiting on Iraq -- all based on lies.

We have a thread here in P&N which arrogantly asks , "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" And another thread boasting of Bush's "staggering" approval rating.

This is a mad hatter's world. It's a world turned upside down, inside out. It's all wrong. No one, no matter what excuse they concoct, what evidence they fabricate, no matter how they manage to control the propoganda, can commit these acts without repercussions, without accountability. Unless that someone is George Bush and those who are charged with demanding accountability are the now morally bankrupt American people.

No one in their right mind can believe what we are doing in Iraq is excusable for any reason. Yet we are there murdering Iraqi civilians and committing all manner of unspeakable atrocities for what in the final analysis is no reason whatsoever.

Seems like the Iraqis are doing very well murdering there own before and afterwards.

Be interesting to take a look at the numbers provided for casualities from pre 2003 and afterwards.

Then break out how many were killed by Iraqis, Iranians and others.

What Iraqis do in their own nation doesn't concern me. What concerns me is what the U.S. is doing in Iraq in the name of freedom when in reality we invaded a nation which posed no threat to us based on lies where we have committed and continue to commit war crimes and atrocities which put us in league with Saddam Hussein.

After all, Saddam would never have survived without the aid and comfort of Reagan/Bush. But you right wing blindmen conveniently ignore the damning truth about your leaders and their war crimes.

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: BBond
Americans sit comfortably in their homes praising the war criminals who are responsible for the myriad atrocities we are visiting on Iraq -- all based on lies.

We have a thread here in P&N which arrogantly asks , "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" And another thread boasting of Bush's "staggering" approval rating.

This is a mad hatter's world. It's a world turned upside down, inside out. It's all wrong. No one, no matter what excuse they concoct, what evidence they fabricate, no matter how they manage to control the propoganda, can commit these acts without repercussions, without accountability. Unless that someone is George Bush and those who are charged with demanding accountability are the now morally bankrupt American people.

No one in their right mind can believe what we are doing in Iraq is excusable for any reason. Yet we are there murdering Iraqi civilians and committing all manner of unspeakable atrocities for what in the final analysis is no reason whatsoever.

Seems like the Iraqis are doing very well murdering there own before and afterwards.

Be interesting to take a look at the numbers provided for casualities from pre 2003 and afterwards.

Then break out how many were killed by Iraqis, Iranians and others.

What Iraqis do in their own nation doesn't concern me. What concerns me is what the U.S. is doing in Iraq in the name of freedom when in reality we invaded a nation which posed no threat to us based on lies where we have committed and continue to commit war crimes and atrocities which put us in league with Saddam Hussein.

After all, Saddam would never have survived without the aid and comfort of Reagan/Bush. But you right wing blindmen conveniently ignore the damning truth about your leaders and their war crimes.

bbond on the front page of msnbc.com is what would have happened in a few years with Iraq.

Obviously, liberals and anti-americans like you would suggest the UN. But judging by the front page of msnbc.com, it's so obvious how ineffective Europe and the UN have been in North Korea. Europeans only know how to pout and cry. Americans get the job done. Open up your history book if you need a refresher.

Next batter up... Iran. :thumbsup:

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: BBond
Americans sit comfortably in their homes praising the war criminals who are responsible for the myriad atrocities we are visiting on Iraq -- all based on lies.

We have a thread here in P&N which arrogantly asks , "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" And another thread boasting of Bush's "staggering" approval rating.

This is a mad hatter's world. It's a world turned upside down, inside out. It's all wrong. No one, no matter what excuse they concoct, what evidence they fabricate, no matter how they manage to control the propoganda, can commit these acts without repercussions, without accountability. Unless that someone is George Bush and those who are charged with demanding accountability are the now morally bankrupt American people.

No one in their right mind can believe what we are doing in Iraq is excusable for any reason. Yet we are there murdering Iraqi civilians and committing all manner of unspeakable atrocities for what in the final analysis is no reason whatsoever.

Seems like the Iraqis are doing very well murdering there own before and afterwards.

Be interesting to take a look at the numbers provided for casualities from pre 2003 and afterwards.

Then break out how many were killed by Iraqis, Iranians and others.

What Iraqis do in their own nation doesn't concern me. What concerns me is what the U.S. is doing in Iraq in the name of freedom when in reality we invaded a nation which posed no threat to us based on lies where we have committed and continue to commit war crimes and atrocities which put us in league with Saddam Hussein.

After all, Saddam would never have survived without the aid and comfort of Reagan/Bush. But you right wing blindmen conveniently ignore the damning truth about your leaders and their war crimes.

bbond on the front page of msnbc.com is what would have happened in a few years with Iraq.

Obviously, liberals and anti-americans like you would suggest the UN. But judging by the front page of msnbc.com, it's so obvious how ineffective Europe and the UN have been in North Korea. Europeans only know how to pout and cry. Americans get the job done. Open up your history book if you need a refresher.

Next batter up... Iran. :thumbsup:

You'd better check with Cheney first. He has to make sure Halliburton's Iranian investments are secure before he conducts his next unprovoked invasion.