For better or worse - San Franciscans are done with masks in schools

[Greenman]

I'm guessing you have experience in education, hence your strong view on school closures. I have mixed feelings personally, because I get the argument that the different home circumstances of children from different economic backgrounds mean that 'home learning' is likely to increase class inequality. Poorer kids won't have computers or educated parents or even a room of their own to study in.

But on the other hand, my own experience was that absolutely no learning of note goes on in schools anyway - they are just prison camps you are forced to attend so your parents can go to work, and you go there to be beaten up regularly and potentially sexually-abused by the teachers. The poorer children may have a lack of learning facitlities at home, but they also tend to to go the most hopeless schools, so maybe it cancels out?

If people really care about school closures, maybe they should, in non-pandemic times, put some of that care into making schools less rubbish?

Sounds like you went to a pretty rough school. Mine wasn't anything like that at all.
I graduated high school on the Honor roll because I added a couple hundred square feet to the principals office over the summer, and remodeled the boy's bathroom as a wood shop project with a couple other students.

 

[abj13]

No one has bothered to answer the question why we never required masks in school to prevent the flu.

There's multiple reasons:

1) The data behind masking was significantly mixed and understudied prior to 2020. I've made this point a few times in different threads, and it's often an inconvenient truth to those who want to rewrite history. But there were very few studies prior to 2020 that showed a benefit to masking for the general public, including one study that suggested that masking increased the risk of influenza infection. You can even review the CDC's recommendations during the 2009 H1N1 outbreak. The CDC clearly stated at the time: "Information on the effectiveness of facemasks and respirators for decreasing the risk of influenza infection in community settings is extremely limited." You can see what their recommendations were at the time following the evidence they had. Masks were certainly considered back then but not deemed an important tool for widespread use. Clearly the data from the past two years now suggests otherwise.

2) As pmv described, the infectivity rate or reproduction value (R value) is significantly lower for influenza. Seasonal influenza seasons are estimated to have a R value of 1.28, while the 2009 H1N1 neared 1.46, while the 1918 Flu pandemic the R was closer to 1.8. For SARS-CoV-2, estimates put the original strain around 2.87, with Delta and Omicron having higher average R value ~5, with Omicron likely being higher. To put this in other terms, 5 transmission cycles from a single person would lead to ~8 people being infected with influenza (using the 2009 H1N1 value of 1.5), while for SARS-CoV-2, that number would be 243 (using a R value of 3). The levels of contagiousness are very different.

3) Influenza has been circulating in human populations for 100+ years. Previous influenza infections can confer some level of protection to new strains and may explain why some strains of influenza end up affecting more younger adults rather than older adults. From what we know as of right now, previous infections with seasonal coronaviruses have not provided significant cross protection. This means that the human population is immunologically better prepared for a influenza pandemic rather than a COVID-19 pandemic.

4) There have been longstanding and approved vaccines and pharmaceutical therapies available for influenza, with these approved down to age 6 months. These items were stockpiled in preparation for the 2009 H1N1 pandemic. The COVID-19 vaccines are far superior but newer, and still is lacking in data for children 6 months to 4.9 years of age. Most of the effective COVID-19 therapeutics are limited in utility with the best data supporting use only in hospitalized patients. Most of the monoclonals have been rendered ineffective because of omicron, and the "pill" antivirals are only coming online. Many of these newer therapies have been limited to patients older than age 12 (although one of the now obsolete monoclonals could be used under EUA in younger ages).

5) SARS-CoV-2 has been clearly implicated in causing MIS-C. Influenza has not and has not been implicated in any other related disease like Kawasaki Disease.

If a H5N1 strain of influenza or other high pathologic strain of influenza became a significant risk to human populations, I think universal masking would absolutely be part of the public health response. Thankfully we've already stockpiled vaccines in preparation of such an event.

 

[abj13]

Start here.

Explain to me how the Bronx is not low by the meaningful measures of serious health risk. Where is justification for continued high state of vigilance?

https://covidactnow.org/us/new_york-ny/county/bronx_county/?s=29391800

If you are in Kentucky, then yeah, you are in there middle of an outbreak, so time to be more careful

Using a national number to create local policy makes no sense when the outbreaks are very regional.

How is the "virus rate" defined as "very low" in the Bronx when the case number per day is only 50% of the delta wave they experienced? On top of it, it is still ~10x GREATER than the rate experienced in May-July 2021 when there was a major pause in the pandemic nationwide. The other metrics including infectivity rate are certainly trending in the right direction. I have no problems with regions (e.g. states) using local numbers to determine when to or not implement public health interventions. The CDC recommendations are of course going to lag behind because they have to think about Kentucky, as you cited in your post, in addition to places like the Bronx.

 

[Bitek]

The flu kills about 40K per year, per the CDC. I can only assume at least 1000 of them are children.

No one has bothered to answer the question why we never required masks in school to prevent the flu.

It's around 200 per year.

2019-20 Season’s Pediatric Flu Deaths Tie High Mark Set During 2017-18 Season | CDC

Everything you need to know about the flu illness, including symptoms, treatment and prevention.

www.cdc.gov

You are not getting clear answers because people don't have them. It's feelings, not facts and science.

It's not just sufficient to state the total number of deaths, what had to be shown is how many deaths are currently preventable if X masking mandates are still in place.

Meanwhile we are distracted by the dwindling pandemic, here are some stats on childhood mortality, and all the stuff we accept as normal while we have a fit about masks in schools.

FastStats

FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.

www.cdc.gov

Mortality
Children aged 1-4 years

• Number of deaths: 3,529
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 22.7

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Children aged 5-14 years

• Number of deaths: 5,623
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.7

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Leading causes of death
Children aged 1-4 years

• Accidents (unintentional injuries)
• Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities
• Assault (homicide)

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Children aged 5-9 years

• Accidents (unintentional injuries)
• Cancer
• Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Children aged 10-14 years

• Accidents (unintentional injuries)
• Intentional self-harm (suicide)
• Cancer

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER

 

[abj13]

Meanwhile we are distracted by the dwindling pandemic, here are some stats on childhood mortality, and all the stuff we accept as normal while we have a fit about masks in schools.

Please clarify for everyone. Do you think pediatric mortality rate is the primary determinant of whether any public health interventions should be made for children? I don't want to put any words in your mouth, I just want to understand why you are focusing solely on mortality rates.

 

[fskimospy]

Please clarify for everyone. Do you think pediatric mortality rate is the primary determinant of whether any public health interventions should be made for children? I don't want to put any words in your mouth, I just want to understand why you are focusing solely on mortality rates.

If you had to hazard a guess, with something as infectious as Omicron what percentage of students do you think will eventually be infected by it even if we continue our mitigation efforts in this way indefinitely? My suspicion is a very high percentage. If infection is that likely then do other metrics you mentioned such as missed school days matter very much?

I think there's some argument to continue masking until vaccines are available to all students in a given school but even then that's not going to matter that much without a mandate. As I expected, vaccine uptake among those 12-17 isn't great, and 5-11 is likely to be far worse.

 

[pete6032]

My 6 year old son has been wearing a mask to school since last March when they went back in person.

It's inflicting exactly ZERO harm to him.

Stop making up that BS like wearing a mask harms them, it doesn't, and his entire elementary school full of children under 10 has less problems wearing a mask all day than an adult has wearing it for 10 minutes in a store.

I was in Microcenter today waiting in line and some guy comes in with the security guard following him. It's this old fat white guy who won't put his mask on and the security guard keeps telling him to put it on and showed him the signs posted everywhere. He basically ignored the security guard then i heard health issues, then saw the security guard on a walkie talkie. 2 minutes later he gets in line behind me 2 spots. I overheard the manager coming up and saying unless you put a mask on you will not be served. He put a gator up over his mouth but not his nose.

As I'm talking to the tech I see him come talk to another one. He said he spilled water on his keyboard of his laptop and it's not working. Dude pulls out his laptop and the top cover is FILLED with USA stickers all over it. It's like a MAGAT's truck full of flags/stickers/everything, except it was on this dudes laptop.

Fucking snowflake...

Microcenter is like neckbeard central. So glad I can buy tech online. I only go to MC if I'm in a pinch or every once in a while when they have a great deal.

 

[abj13]

If you had to hazard a guess, with something as infectious as Omicron what percentage of students do you think will eventually be infected by it even if we continue our mitigation efforts in this way indefinitely? My suspicion is a very high percentage. If infection is that likely then do other metrics you mentioned such as missed school days matter very much?

I think there's some argument to continue masking until vaccines are available to all students in a given school but even then that's not going to matter that much without a mandate. As I expected, vaccine uptake among those 12-17 isn't great, and 5-11 is likely to be far worse.

I think when the dust settles from omicron, if I was school policy maker, there would be very much a tiered approach. The response should not be a binary decision, masks yes or masks no. First, now that the Pfizer vaccine is available, it would be COVID-19 vaccines are required for public school entry. During times of high circulation of virus, masking and social distancing as much as possible dictated by the facility should be implemented. When the virus is prevalent but not absent, these measures can be relaxed, with consideration of stopping all measures if the local infectivity rate is very low (not using Bitek's definition of very low lol). If a school district doesn't implement mandatory vaccination, then I think the threshold for enacting mitigation efforts shifts and becomes lower. Very much what drives these decisions is the local/regional prevalence rates, availability of mitigation strategies etc.

But the other metrics very much matter when discussing children. Preventing hospitalization is a major metric of health benefit for children, and during the pandemic the hospitalization rate has been somewhere between 0.1-1.5%. Not only does prevention of hospitalization have intrinsic benefit to the child, think of the time away from school, the money and resources saved for the medical system, and the time off parents need to take from work. And if you are concerned about masks impacting a child's wellbeing, shouldn't you be concerned about a child that has to enter a scary environment with mean people poking and prodding the child for the sake of medicine, while wearing full PPE? In addition, can you define the long-term consequences of MIS-C? I can't. MIS-C could be a risk factor for future disease and prevention of it could have major future benefit. MIS-C is associated with ~1 in 5 having neurological impairment during the illness. What's the long-term meaning of that? What about COVID-19 associated myocarditis? Should we ignore this condition when we could reduce its incidence by public health measures? And infection itself without complication or hospitalization can't be assumed to be just a benign event. Aren't you somewhat interested on what the long-term consequences of SARS-CoV-2 infection is on children when some preliminary data from adults suggest long-term cognitive issues in non-hospitalized patients here and here? If COVID-19 can impact adult cognition, what will its impact be on the developing brain? Between 4-66% of pediatric cases have been reported to lead to Long COVID. What will be the long-term consequences of that? More time is needed to fully quantify the benefits of prevention of COVID-19 in children. Clearly the mortality rate is lower, which is great. But it doesn't mean the infection itself is a benign event.

People who are hand waving that children are fine with COVID because deaths are so low are really missing what makes public health interventions so impactful in children. Saving lives is often a secondary outcomes compared to all of the additional benefits that public health interventions like childhood vaccinations provide. Extrapolating the same criteria of benefit for adults onto children is inconsistent with how pediatric medicine is evaluated.

 

[woolfe9998]

It's around 200 per year.

2019-20 Season’s Pediatric Flu Deaths Tie High Mark Set During 2017-18 Season | CDC

Everything you need to know about the flu illness, including symptoms, treatment and prevention.

www.cdc.gov

You are not getting clear answers because people don't have them. It's feelings, not facts and science.

It's not just sufficient to state the total number of deaths, what had to be shown is how many deaths are currently preventable if X masking mandates are still in place.

Meanwhile we are distracted by the dwindling pandemic, here are some stats on childhood mortality, and all the stuff we accept as normal while we have a fit about masks in schools.

FastStats

FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.

www.cdc.gov

Mortality
Children aged 1-4 years

• Number of deaths: 3,529
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 22.7

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Children aged 5-14 years

• Number of deaths: 5,623
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.7

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Leading causes of death
Children aged 1-4 years

• Accidents (unintentional injuries)
• Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities
• Assault (homicide)

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Children aged 5-9 years

• Accidents (unintentional injuries)
• Cancer
• Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal abnormalities

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER
Children aged 10-14 years

• Accidents (unintentional injuries)
• Intentional self-harm (suicide)
• Cancer

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2020) via CDC WONDER

The trouble with reported flu deaths is that only about 2000 per year are actually reported, but CDC ultimately calculates the total number usually in the 30-40K range. Because CDC thinks that most people who die of the flu are never tested for it. And they apply a multiplier to the reported deaths. Your link shows what is reported.

 

[woolfe9998]

If you had to hazard a guess, with something as infectious as Omicron what percentage of students do you think will eventually be infected by it even if we continue our mitigation efforts in this way indefinitely? My suspicion is a very high percentage. If infection is that likely then do other metrics you mentioned such as missed school days matter very much?

I think there's some argument to continue masking until vaccines are available to all students in a given school but even then that's not going to matter that much without a mandate. As I expected, vaccine uptake among those 12-17 isn't great, and 5-11 is likely to be far worse.

Yup, when you sit in a classroom hours per day at close quarters with another child who has omicron, which is as infectious as measles, you're likely going to get it with or without a mask.

 

[Bitek]

How is the "virus rate" defined as "very low" in the Bronx when the case number per day is only 50% of the delta wave they experienced? On top of it, it is still ~10x GREATER than the rate experienced in May-July 2021 when there was a major pause in the pandemic nationwide. The other metrics including infectivity rate are certainly trending in the right direction. I have no problems with regions (e.g. states) using local numbers to determine when to or not implement public health interventions. The CDC recommendations are of course going to lag behind because they have to think about Kentucky, as you cited in your post, in addition to places like the Bronx.

Why are you picking a proportion as your metric? Look at the actual per capita rates. Delta was a non event in NYC. Very few cases, very very few deaths (due to high vax and immunity rates, other effective controls.)

50% of a non event is an even lesser event.

If you want to make comparisons, look at Mar2020 to omicron. Way less cases, horrific amounts of death. That's not the reality today.

Omicron, fing everyone got it nearly, few died, and even those are in the typical unvaccinated, or those with high comorbidities.

Now you have a population that is highly vaccinated, boosted, and also likely previously infected, so incredible levels of immunity. Masks are not what is driving the numbers.

 

[Bitek]

The trouble with reported flu deaths is that only about 2000 per year are actually reported, but CDC ultimately calculates the total number usually in the 30-40K range. Because CDC thinks that most people who die of the flu are never tested for it. And they apply a multiplier to the reported deaths. Your link shows what is reported.

Yeah, that's also true with COVID too tho. Esp with the last surge omicron.

You can correct for numbers, but do that equally. Doesn't really change the central point tho.

 

[Bitek]

Please clarify for everyone. Do you think pediatric mortality rate is the primary determinant of whether any public health interventions should be made for children? I don't want to put any words in your mouth, I just want to understand why you are focusing solely on mortality rates.

Show me where this is still a major heath crisis and is where we should prioritize efforts.

 

[MichaelMay]

Yup, when you sit in a classroom hours per day at close quarters with another child who has omicron, which is as infectious as measles, you're likely going to get it with or without a mask.

Oh I recognize this argument that all the Trumpistas made just a little while ago.

Here's the deal, viral load matters and reducing it matters a LOT when it comes to further transmission and your ability to deal with it. This was explained to anti-vaxxers and still is, hell you probably explained it to them yourself but now you are tired of restrictions so you just ignore that knowledge that YOU already have.

Vaccinated people carry less of a viral load if infected, masks lessen the viral load if the masked person infects another person.

Why is this important? Well for two reasons, a high viral load leads to systemic organ infections and your immune system will have a harder time dealing with it. For transmission this is crucial when it comes to vaccinated people being exposed and for MUTATIONS this is how that happens.

We developed universal guidelines to limit viral load, not to completely hinder infections because that would be impossible and you morons took that as "well we'll get infected anyway". Or rather other morons that you probably condemned did that, and now you are one of those morons.

 

[abj13]

Why are you picking a proportion as your metric? Look at the actual per capita rates. Delta was a non event in NYC. Very few cases, very very few deaths (due to high vax and immunity rates, other effective controls.)

50% of a non event is an even lesser event.

If you want to make comparisons, look at Mar2020 to omicron. Way less cases, horrific amounts of death. That's not the reality today.

Omicron, fing everyone got it nearly, few died, and even those are in the typical unvaccinated, or those with high comorbidities.

Now you have a population that is highly vaccinated, boosted, and also likely previously infected, so incredible levels of immunity. Masks are not what is driving the numbers.

Citing an infection rate without context is meaningless value. 11 cases /100,000 in isolation without context could be a really big deal or it could be nothing. You told everyone how the virus rates were "very low." Even by your own example, the Bronx still 2 to 10-fold higher rates than their nadirs in 2020 and 2021. When you place the current numbers in context, your description of "very low" is rather absurd. Nobody is arguing whether masks are the primary driver as to why the numbers have receded in the Bronx, so no, don't be constructing strawmen like that.

People seem to forget that pre-vaccine, the best tools we had to reduce COVID hospitalizations and deaths was masks, social distancing, and in hospital therapies (remdesivir, steroids). After the vaccine? No other intervention has prevented hospitalizations and deaths like the vaccine, and it has maintained a significant level of effectiveness against omicron in prevention of hospitalization and deaths.

 

[abj13]

Show me where this is still a major heath crisis and is where we should prioritize efforts.

Are you saying you think COVID is currently not a major health crisis in children?

Of the following, are any of these a major health crisis in children?
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Varicella
Influenza
Neisseria Meningitidis
Rubella
Haemophilis influenzae type B
Rotavirus
Polio
Tetanus
Diptheria

Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth quite yet. Please elaborate.

 

[MichaelMay]

Show me where this is still a major heath crisis and is where we should prioritize efforts.

It's still a major health crisis per fucking definition, stop being a moron.

We should prioritize efforts to minimize the spread and especially to minimize high load spreads because you know what? We might get a mutation that is more infectious than omicron and more deadly than delta. You see virus mutation is driven by viral load paths, not by random mutation. Evolution in this field is not at all by natural selection as long as viable hosts exist, it could kill a nation and be perfectly viable for its evolutionary path.

 

[mect]

I think you guys guys are vastly underestimating the impact on kids. All pediatric cancers kill an estimated 1000 kids per year in total. Covid has killed 1000 kids in the last two years and remains a top 10 cause of death. Kids under 11 have had access to vaccines for less than 3 months and kids under 5 still fucking don't. I live in an extremely high vaccination area and we haven't even hit 50% for kids 5-11, and obviously none under 5.

Masks are trivial. You can argue all day they make teaching more difficult and im sure they do. They're not nearly a burden as you guys are portraying them, and for more than half the kids under middle school age theyre basically the only mitigation they have.

You both keep minimizing the effects of covid on kids and say it doesn't hit them as hard. No shit. Theyre kids, they're more resilient than adults. You're both also discounting the other adverse outcomes that impact health outside of death, which is disingenuous. Currently more kids are being hospitalized now than at any stage in the pandemic. Should mask mandates go away in a month? Maybe. Now? Not a chance. Case rates are still double what they were at the peak of the back to school surge, and theyre already down by 75% from the current peak.

Not to mention ignoring the impacts on healthcare workers. Even if kids are only spreading the disease to those who could prevent it by getting vaccinated, those people are still ending up in our hospitals potentially straining the healthcare systems. We are on the downswing right now, and it looks like soon experts will support dropping mask mandates, but until they do, it seems like progressives should support our scientific experts, because if we don't, conservatives sure won't.

Unfortunately, with election season looming, politicians in general are going to make the politically expedient decision instead of the scientifically expedient decision.

Doctors warn ending school mask mandates will lead to rise in COVID cases as several states lift requirements

Several states across the country are considering lifting mask mandates in schools in an attempt to return to some semblance of normalcy.

abcnews.go.com

 

[MichaelMay]

Why are you picking a proportion as your metric? Look at the actual per capita rates. Delta was a non event in NYC. Very few cases, very very few deaths (due to high vax and immunity rates, other effective controls.)

50% of a non event is an even lesser event.

If you want to make comparisons, look at Mar2020 to omicron. Way less cases, horrific amounts of death. That's not the reality today.

Omicron, fing everyone got it nearly, few died, and even those are in the typical unvaccinated, or those with high comorbidities.

Now you have a population that is highly vaccinated, boosted, and also likely previously infected, so incredible levels of immunity. Masks are not what is driving the numbers.

You want to make comparisons? OK then, polio doesn't even have any bad symptoms for more than 0.1-0.5% of the population, for 99.9-99.5% it's a stomach bug.

How about we just stop taking precautions against that, I mean since it's really fucking mild in comparison to Covid which is KNOWN to have more severe symptoms in kids than that and lets not ignore that kids WILL spread it to everyone else as well.

You are not making any sense what so ever, this is a disease far worse than measels, rubella or polio... Would you like those to return, even the combo of the three is NOTHING compared to Covid.

I get that people are tired of it and start to find ways to just be stupid about it because they kinda feel like the idiots were right all along but those were and are idiots and now you are an idiot as well.

 

[Bitek]

You want to make comparisons? OK then, polio doesn't even have any bad symptoms for more than 0.1-0.5% of the population, for 99.9-99.5% it's a stomach bug.

How about we just stop taking precautions against that, I mean since it's really fucking mild in comparison to Covid which is KNOWN to have more severe symptoms in kids than that and lets not ignore that kids WILL spread it to everyone else as well.

You are not making any sense what so ever, this is a disease far worse than measels, rubella or polio... Would you like those to return, even the combo of the three is NOTHING compared to Covid.

I get that people are tired of it and start to find ways to just be stupid about it because they kinda feel like the idiots were right all along but those were and are idiots and now you are an idiot as well.

Brilliant analysis.What exactly are you preventing by continuing mask mandates?

Why are so many public health officials moving away from these? Please, put your cards on the table and back it up with the science.

Otherwise your position is as useless as the maga ivermectin/hydroxy crowd. All politics, no proof.

 

[Bitek]

Citing an infection rate without context is meaningless value. 11 cases /100,000 in isolation without context could be a really big deal or it could be nothing. You told everyone how the virus rates were "very low." Even by your own example, the Bronx still 2 to 10-fold higher rates than their nadirs in 2020 and 2021. When you place the current numbers in context, your description of "very low" is rather absurd. Nobody is arguing whether masks are the primary driver as to why the numbers have receded in the Bronx, so no, don't be constructing strawmen like that.

People seem to forget that pre-vaccine, the best tools we had to reduce COVID hospitalizations and deaths was masks, social distancing, and in hospital therapies (remdesivir, steroids). After the vaccine? No other intervention has prevented hospitalizations and deaths like the vaccine, and it has maintained a significant level of effectiveness against omicron in prevention of hospitalization and deaths.

We're talking mask mandates and reasonable and effective control measures, and how we pivot back to normalcy.

No one is talking about ending vaccinations. Talk about strawmen.

Vaccination and natural immunity is a big part of why we're at low risk today.

NYC suffered more horror and death than anyone in the US. They aren't pulling back mandates because they forgot. It's because they know what they've been thru and what's reasonable at this stage.

You can't live at defcon 1 forever. The omicron outbreak has passed. Time to come out of the bunker.

Zero covid is not a viable strategy long term. We will have to live with it as well as your copy pasta list of viruses.

 

[Bitek]

You want to make comparisons? OK then, polio doesn't even have any bad symptoms for more than 0.1-0.5% of the population, for 99.9-99.5% it's a stomach bug.

How about we just stop taking precautions against that, I mean since it's really fucking mild in comparison to Covid which is KNOWN to have more severe symptoms in kids than that and lets not ignore that kids WILL spread it to everyone else as well.

You are not making any sense what so ever, this is a disease far worse than measels, rubella or polio... Would you like those to return, even the combo of the three is NOTHING compared to Covid.

I get that people are tired of it and start to find ways to just be stupid about it because they kinda feel like the idiots were right all along but those were and are idiots and now you are an idiot as well.

Really? Masks are going to stop COVID evolution? You think eradication is possible?

How about stop with the dumb stupidpoopyhead personal insults, and actually construct what policy you are for and what it will prevent?

 

[abj13]

We're talking mask mandates and reasonable and effective control measures, and how we pivot back to normalcy.

No one is talking about ending vaccinations. Talk about strawmen.

Vaccination and natural immunity is a big part of why we're at low risk today.

NYC suffered more horror and death than anyone in the US. They aren't pulling back mandates because they forgot. It's because they know what they've been thru and what's reasonable at this stage.

You can't live at defcon 1 forever. The omicron outbreak has passed. Time to come out of the bunker.

Zero covid is not a viable strategy long term. We will have to live with it as well as your copy pasta list of viruses.

Are you purposely dodging both questions now? I asked you if COVID-19 in children is a major heath crisis or not. Is it or is it not? Should we be making public health decisions for children based on mortality rate or not? These are integral questions I've politely asked you to clarify your position on. That's why the conversation will naturally extend to these other pathogens in children. But of course, my response is completely dependent on understanding what your position is on these two questions. What is it? You clearly spent all this time agglomerating the statistics of childhood death due to pathogens like the flu. Why are you so beholden to mortality, when national experts like the ACIP base a public health decisions for children based on morbidity and other factors?

And if you think N. Meningitidis, HiB, C. tetani, and C. diphtheriae are viruses, you might need to go back and review gram stains again

 

[hal2kilo]

All were recalled with fewer votes than they got when they were elected in the first place:

San Francisco Unified School District elections (2018)

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

This is what I don't like about California recall elections an agitated minority can overturn the will of the majority that just wants to vote in regularly scheduled elections.

Bingo!

 

[hal2kilo]

Sort of really back to the politics of this OP.

What Pundits Don’t Understand About the San Francisco Recall – Mother Jones

All politics is local. And that’s especially true of the San Francisco school board recall. Last night, SF residents overwhelmingly voted to oust the only three board members eligible for recall, including the particularly divisive Alison Collins (79 percent voted for removal), board President Gabriela López (75 percent), and even Vice President Faauuga Moliga (72 percent), the first Pacific Islander elected to citywide office, who tried belatedly to distance himself from the others. Within minutes of the results being announced, national news outlets and pundits of all stripes began breathlessly trumpeting this as a blow against excessive wokeness, a vote to “return to normal,” a “three-alarm warning for Democrats,” a “parental backlash for pursuing the renaming of schools and other progressive policy changes.”

Kinda/not really. If I had to boil it down, it was a for vote to put performance over performativeness.