You really only need one application to do all of that. Any decent ERP will do all of those. Great Plains, SAP, Oracle, Epicore...there's tons of these out there.
I agree with sygyzy though. Your girlfriend should be the one doing the research.
You really only need one application to do all of that. Any decent ERP will do all of those. Great Plains, SAP, Oracle, Epicore...there's tons of these out there.
I agree with sygyzy though. Your girlfriend should be the one doing the research.
- Jan 8, 2004
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This professor is insane. His class is full of a range of mid-20's to mid-40's people, 90% of those people have full-time jobs that have nothing to do with IT. But he is asking for this specific stuff, its right on his assignment page. Design an entire network including applications and servers.
I said I would help her with that part, because like the rest of her class except the three people who work in IT, nobody knows how to do this stuff. I am big in computers and even I dont know all the ins and outs of corporate networks.
But thats what he wants, and I am just trying to help a bit. This part is actually small compared to the rest. Right now she is designing in Visio the entire floor plan and wiring for the building.
This is just the mid-term.
Ugh.
I said I would help her with that part, because like the rest of her class except the three people who work in IT, nobody knows how to do this stuff. I am big in computers and even I dont know all the ins and outs of corporate networks.
But thats what he wants, and I am just trying to help a bit. This part is actually small compared to the rest. Right now she is designing in Visio the entire floor plan and wiring for the building.
This is just the mid-term.
Ugh.
- Jan 8, 2004
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I told her going into this I would not do a lot of the work, and she didnt want me to because she wants to learn it.
But the prof only gave the class a week, if she had a month I would not be helping, but a week is too short a time to learn all this stuff, research it, and do everything else. Especially with a job and everything else. So I am just helping where I can, and a lot of this I want to learn anyway for future jobs since I am a computer engineering major.
But the prof only gave the class a week, if she had a month I would not be helping, but a week is too short a time to learn all this stuff, research it, and do everything else. Especially with a job and everything else. So I am just helping where I can, and a lot of this I want to learn anyway for future jobs since I am a computer engineering major.
I would pay a contractor for the service that can guarantee 1 hour & same day on site respond, because 47 users doesn't require someone on site every day.
I would spend the money on an awsome backup system & solid hardware.
Get an EMC NAS instead of fileservers. No CAL's needed. CIFS / NFS / Multiprotocol access .... NO MS FEES!!!!
If this is for an MBA project, then I wouldn't fully utilize the money in the 2M budget.
See, that's where I think the professor is trying to catch you out. If you can do stuff with the absolute minimum, why pay for more than what you need? Quite honestly, some of this stuff posted here is like buying a Ferrari to drive to your mailbox, just because you can afford it. Heck, you don't even need a car.
My point is: go with the conservative ideas, because later on I'm pretty sure there's always a hiccup, and you can always keep the money aside, and use it later.
My .02 USD
See, that's where I think the professor is trying to catch you out. If you can do stuff with the absolute minimum, why pay for more than what you need? Quite honestly, some of this stuff posted here is like buying a Ferrari to drive to your mailbox, just because you can afford it. Heck, you don't even need a car.
My point is: go with the conservative ideas, because later on I'm pretty sure there's always a hiccup, and you can always keep the money aside, and use it later.
My .02 USD
For a ground up company of 47 clients I'd outsource both web and e-mail to a hosting service. They can do it more efficiently and with far more experience.
You should be spending more time on the manufacturing/financial software that is going to be running the company, not worrying about network topology. basic Windows applications servers are 'canned' solutions that don't require many Brain cells. It's the brick and mortar application that will be running your company that should be occupying 99.99% of your time.
You should be spending more time on the manufacturing/financial software that is going to be running the company, not worrying about network topology. basic Windows applications servers are 'canned' solutions that don't require many Brain cells. It's the brick and mortar application that will be running your company that should be occupying 99.99% of your time.
If you're looking at SAP, that's most of your $2 million budget right there.
Assuming the 2Mil is everything, including software and software "adjustments"
FWIW
Scott
Assuming the 2Mil is everything, including software and software "adjustments"
FWIW
Scott
RebateMonger
Elite Member
- Dec 24, 2005
- 11,586
- 0
- 0
I did a similar bid (for a manufacturing and sales company with 40-50 employees) a while back.
Unless you plan on growing to over 75 employees in the near (less than 2 years) future, you could do the whole thing with as little as one Windows SBS 2003, Premium Edition, server. That'd give you a good firewall, an email system (Exchange/Outlook), SQL Server, and full remote access for all employees. But if you are running line-of-business applications, you'd probably want a second, Windows Server 2003, box just to run that application.
If you have the need to do heavy-duty web serving (few companies do, unless they specialize in Internet sales), then you might want a separate web server, or could host offsite, depending on what your web content is.
You'd set it up with a single inbound hardware firewall (if you wish...it's not mandatory). Plug the SBS 2003 Server into that. Then plug your switch(es) into the second NIC on the SBS Server. The built-in ISA 2004 firewall will monitor, filter, and control all incoming and outgoing traffic. It'll also provide VPN services for your company. SBS's Remote Web Workplace will provide full remote access to every PC in the company. The built-n Exchange 2003 SP2 will provide full remote access to email to SmartPhones, PDAs, and other remote clients.
Set up internal RAID 1 on your SBS Server for the OS. Use a second disk array of some ort (RAID 1, RAID 5, etc.) for data storage. Add a tape or removable drive system for offsite backups.
Management of a system this size, with 50 clients and a qualified person managing them, would probably take somebody about one day a week, mostly supporting the client PCs. The Server itself should only take a few hours a month. Most companies this size would use an outside consultant to manage the Server and the network, and train somebody inside for part-time support duties.
It'd also pay to install a client monitoring system, to monitor the health of the XP client PCs. An IT consultant can provide this monitoring service for about $150 a month.
Costs:
MAIN SERVER: SBS 2003 Premium Edition with 50 CALS: $5000
SBS Server hardware with two RAID arrays and 500GB of disk space: $5000
APPLICATION SERVER: Server 2003 Standard Edition (no CALS required, they are provided by SBS): $700
Server 2003 hardware: $2500
Spare Server and parts - I'd buy two basically identical boxes for the MAIN and APPLICATION Servers, and then buy a third, bare-bones, identical box for spare parts. You'll want a couple of spare hard drives, and a spare RAID controller card, too. - $2500
Hardware Firewall (optional) - $1500
Tape or removable drive backup systems: $2000-$5000
Switches and UPS: $2000
Server-based Antivirus/AntiSpyware and 50 desktop deployment licenses: $2000 plus $750 per year.
Line-of-Business applications - $5,000 and up
Labor - about 60 hours ASSUMING all client PCs already have Windows XP Professional installed and existing network cabling. This includes migration of old emails from POP accounts to Exchange Server.
Note that these specifications are based on "typical" needs. If you get a lot of email, host ecommerce sites, store large amounts of data, or have other atypical needs, the storage size, number of email servers, and types of servers could vary widely. Also, I haven't included the cost of setting up the T1 or whatever Internet connection is chosen. If remote access is vital or if 100% Internet uptime is vital, you will want a backup Internet connection of some sort, even DSL.
Unless you plan on growing to over 75 employees in the near (less than 2 years) future, you could do the whole thing with as little as one Windows SBS 2003, Premium Edition, server. That'd give you a good firewall, an email system (Exchange/Outlook), SQL Server, and full remote access for all employees. But if you are running line-of-business applications, you'd probably want a second, Windows Server 2003, box just to run that application.
If you have the need to do heavy-duty web serving (few companies do, unless they specialize in Internet sales), then you might want a separate web server, or could host offsite, depending on what your web content is.
You'd set it up with a single inbound hardware firewall (if you wish...it's not mandatory). Plug the SBS 2003 Server into that. Then plug your switch(es) into the second NIC on the SBS Server. The built-in ISA 2004 firewall will monitor, filter, and control all incoming and outgoing traffic. It'll also provide VPN services for your company. SBS's Remote Web Workplace will provide full remote access to every PC in the company. The built-n Exchange 2003 SP2 will provide full remote access to email to SmartPhones, PDAs, and other remote clients.
Set up internal RAID 1 on your SBS Server for the OS. Use a second disk array of some ort (RAID 1, RAID 5, etc.) for data storage. Add a tape or removable drive system for offsite backups.
Management of a system this size, with 50 clients and a qualified person managing them, would probably take somebody about one day a week, mostly supporting the client PCs. The Server itself should only take a few hours a month. Most companies this size would use an outside consultant to manage the Server and the network, and train somebody inside for part-time support duties.
It'd also pay to install a client monitoring system, to monitor the health of the XP client PCs. An IT consultant can provide this monitoring service for about $150 a month.
Costs:
MAIN SERVER: SBS 2003 Premium Edition with 50 CALS: $5000
SBS Server hardware with two RAID arrays and 500GB of disk space: $5000
APPLICATION SERVER: Server 2003 Standard Edition (no CALS required, they are provided by SBS): $700
Server 2003 hardware: $2500
Spare Server and parts - I'd buy two basically identical boxes for the MAIN and APPLICATION Servers, and then buy a third, bare-bones, identical box for spare parts. You'll want a couple of spare hard drives, and a spare RAID controller card, too. - $2500
Hardware Firewall (optional) - $1500
Tape or removable drive backup systems: $2000-$5000
Switches and UPS: $2000
Server-based Antivirus/AntiSpyware and 50 desktop deployment licenses: $2000 plus $750 per year.
Line-of-Business applications - $5,000 and up
Labor - about 60 hours ASSUMING all client PCs already have Windows XP Professional installed and existing network cabling. This includes migration of old emails from POP accounts to Exchange Server.
Note that these specifications are based on "typical" needs. If you get a lot of email, host ecommerce sites, store large amounts of data, or have other atypical needs, the storage size, number of email servers, and types of servers could vary widely. Also, I haven't included the cost of setting up the T1 or whatever Internet connection is chosen. If remote access is vital or if 100% Internet uptime is vital, you will want a backup Internet connection of some sort, even DSL.
For finacial & POS I would look at SQL Ledger and Quasar for low cost Linux solution (both software are very capable and can be customize by the developers for a small fee if require, and Quasar is available for both Linux & Windows). MS Great Plain Dynamics also a great solution because it come with most packages that you need, and more packages can be added on for a price, however it is still much lower over all cost when compare to Oracle.
BillQuick from BQE also is some thing that you might want to look at for time billing/job cost/project management/accounting. And, Compiere is another software that worth a look if the bussiness is into ERP/CRM.
Personally I would take Quasar or SQL Ledger over MS solution because I enjoy customizing & building my own forms. MS is one of the best for quick out of the box solution, but it have a few quirks that I has to fixed often (I haven't support Great Plains Dynamics for 2 years and it could be much better now because MS sunk $100 millions into it to make the transition from the crappy Pervasive SQL/Btrive to the much better MS SQL Server, and they also rewrite most of the application from scratch to compeat with Oracle/Peoplesoft).
BillQuick from BQE also is some thing that you might want to look at for time billing/job cost/project management/accounting. And, Compiere is another software that worth a look if the bussiness is into ERP/CRM.
Personally I would take Quasar or SQL Ledger over MS solution because I enjoy customizing & building my own forms. MS is one of the best for quick out of the box solution, but it have a few quirks that I has to fixed often (I haven't support Great Plains Dynamics for 2 years and it could be much better now because MS sunk $100 millions into it to make the transition from the crappy Pervasive SQL/Btrive to the much better MS SQL Server, and they also rewrite most of the application from scratch to compeat with Oracle/Peoplesoft).
Nah, go with an EMC SAN! Hook a blade enclosure up to it and run the blades without harddrives, using the SAN. Install all your servers in virtual machines running on said blades. The server farm as we know it is on the way out, this setup has management and financial advantages.
ha, well, true, I guess for such a small environment they would probably never meet that "sweet spot" where the expandability makes up for the initial investment. I would however still suggest using virtual machines. If anything, they can use the free VMWare Server (I think it's supposed to be gold in a month).
I would be tempted to virtualize it as well but you can run into performance issues.
But not the exchange box because that just leads to issues...
RSX or R2 are both free now. I am just starting to experiment with R2
Network arch *could look like*
Modem
-
Edge device
-
-
Switch 1
Switch 2
Go with Cisco 3550s for switches, interconnect them with fiber and use the other interface to connect to the edge device on each unit. That will give you some form of fail over and load balancing.
But not the exchange box because that just leads to issues...
RSX or R2 are both free now. I am just starting to experiment with R2
Network arch *could look like*
Modem
-
Edge device
-
-
Switch 1
Switch 2
Go with Cisco 3550s for switches, interconnect them with fiber and use the other interface to connect to the edge device on each unit. That will give you some form of fail over and load balancing.
Originally posted by: spidey07
*cough*
3550s are end of sale/end of life.
True, but I was just throwing something out there as an idea. I am not hugly familiar with the cisco line. Is the 2950 a newer model then?
Do NOT do this. Asynchronous lines are not suited for hosting applications. If you won't be hosting anything on site, you should definitely look into "business solutions" from companies like Cox et al. They don't have an SLA, but if the business is not entirely dependent upon the Internet, it isn't a huge deal. Several of my smaller clients do this and save a TON of money (T1 is ~$600 a month from the local utility company)
EyeMWing has a nice set up in his OP, although if you have a little Linux know how you can do all of that on 2 servers, and no licensing
4 would be nicer, but you could get away with 2. As has already been stated $2million is an enormous budget for what they want you to do. For example you could run your web and mail server on the same box for 47 employees, and File server on another (for application server are you needing .Net funcitonality? I can't see a manufacturing firm needing much more than a DB server with a web front end, maybe PHP or Python and MySQL is free as well) then of course you would want your PDC and backup PDC (Samba which is free and is what I use for one of my clients with ~200 users on a 2.4ghz p4 with 2gb RAM) Although if you don't know much/anything about Linux, I would go with EyeMWing's plan. You'll still come in way under budget.I agree with you that you need someone on site for 47 people, what I don't think anyone is considering is the end-user difficulties. Your servers may be rock solid, but individual computers are going to run into issues that need to be resolved. I'd say 2 individuals that have a solid background in both networking and tech support. The main thrust of the argument is redundancy. If you only have one guy and he catches the flu and is out for 2 weeks and the servers decide to go down, Pst files start getting corrupted etc, you're gonna be SOL.
I'll chime in...
At that small of a shop you definately shouldn't need a full time IT person - there just isn't anywhere near a full time job for something that small.
Next....you mentioned manufacturing.
Don't forget about wireless. If you're in manufacturing you are already doing wireless for all buildings and the manufacturing floor. Budget 75K in hardware and 12K a year in maintenance/support for wireless plus 100K for installation.
And on the "that sounds like a lot of money" - it adds up quickly beyond just hardware and software (which is the smallest portion of an IT budget). And the rule of thumb is never come in under budget. If you do, your budget gets cut. Your friend could really show off and do a total cost of ownership analysis over 3 and 5 years if they want extra credit. Once you start adding in maintenance contracts for hardware/software plus the contracts for day-2-day stuff it will get up there in cost.
At that small of a shop you definately shouldn't need a full time IT person - there just isn't anywhere near a full time job for something that small.
Next....you mentioned manufacturing.
Don't forget about wireless. If you're in manufacturing you are already doing wireless for all buildings and the manufacturing floor. Budget 75K in hardware and 12K a year in maintenance/support for wireless plus 100K for installation.
And on the "that sounds like a lot of money" - it adds up quickly beyond just hardware and software (which is the smallest portion of an IT budget). And the rule of thumb is never come in under budget. If you do, your budget gets cut. Your friend could really show off and do a total cost of ownership analysis over 3 and 5 years if they want extra credit. Once you start adding in maintenance contracts for hardware/software plus the contracts for day-2-day stuff it will get up there in cost.
- Jan 8, 2004
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Originally posted by: DaiShan
Do NOT do this. Asynchronous lines are not suited for hosting applications. If you won't be hosting anything on site, you should definitely look into "business solutions" from companies like Cox et al. They don't have an SLA, but if the business is not entirely dependent upon the Internet, it isn't a huge deal. Several of my smaller clients do this and save a TON of money (T1 is ~$600 a month from the local utility company)
EyeMWing has a nice set up in his OP, although if you have a little Linux know how you can do all of that on 2 servers, and no licensing
Thanks for the info, I think we are going to try and go with an E-commerce site from somewhere like Godaddy that way we can have it hosted off-site, as well as get a lower end internet system then we would need otherwise, hopefully saving money and increasing security and reliability.
professor probably need some good ideas
Is it a requirement to use up all the budget? Because the $2M IT budget is way too much for this business...no wonder the professor is teaching. in the real world, he would be fired on the spot for even proposing such a wasteful budget on such a small network.
I can very comfortably run that kind of network on 10% of that budget. Do you get extra credit for coming WAY under budget?
To be creative...I would probably put everything at a coloc and run mpls/metro-e back to the main office with remote management/power of all the servers at the coloc. Voice over ip and data can run back to the co-loc. double up to another coloc if you want to consider redundancy/failover. Make sure to add more $$$$$ to the budget if you want to do failover/redundancy.
I would also look into virtual for EVERYTHING. Get a couple of Dell 6850's and load that up with memory. Then get vmware and a Very small SAN and you're in business. You can put all your servers on those two beastly dell servers with vmotion for complete server uptime. For the workstation, look into terminal server with those cheap $350 terminals and you're done. Lock everyone down with a good policy and your looking at a champion network that is highly available. If you want to do VM, increase the budget by another $100K, but you will still be WAY under the "budget"
Is it a requirement to use up all the budget? Because the $2M IT budget is way too much for this business...no wonder the professor is teaching. in the real world, he would be fired on the spot for even proposing such a wasteful budget on such a small network.
I can very comfortably run that kind of network on 10% of that budget. Do you get extra credit for coming WAY under budget?
To be creative...I would probably put everything at a coloc and run mpls/metro-e back to the main office with remote management/power of all the servers at the coloc. Voice over ip and data can run back to the co-loc. double up to another coloc if you want to consider redundancy/failover. Make sure to add more $$$$$ to the budget if you want to do failover/redundancy.
I would also look into virtual for EVERYTHING. Get a couple of Dell 6850's and load that up with memory. Then get vmware and a Very small SAN and you're in business. You can put all your servers on those two beastly dell servers with vmotion for complete server uptime. For the workstation, look into terminal server with those cheap $350 terminals and you're done. Lock everyone down with a good policy and your looking at a champion network that is highly available. If you want to do VM, increase the budget by another $100K, but you will still be WAY under the "budget"
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