Football Dicussions: Michael Vick

[brikis98]

Ok, I'm having trouble listening to an idiot claim Vick is not "agile" or some other BS, so I have to comment.

Originally posted by: Le Petomane
So agility has nothing at all to do with throwing a football? TD's, and interceptions are VERY much related to a QB's ability.

um, ok, lets pretend you meant agility both times.

Originally posted by: Le Petomane
The Yards per catch depend upon your recievers.

and TD's and pass percentage don't? are you trying to say a QB should have roughly the same number of TD's and the same pass percentage throwing to the likes of Terrel Owens as they do throwing to no name receivers?

Originally posted by: Le Petomane
Sounds to me like you've been playing to much Madden. Any idiot can throw a football. But completions and TD passes are what makes a QB, which leaves Vick far from being a decent QB. A QB who can actually run the ball without getting hammered? It all has to do with pocket presence, another quality your admired Vick lacks. When your all growed up, and understand the game of football, come back and talk to me. Until then, stick with your PS2...

Well, lets see. Take a vote - either amongst us "unknowledgeable" fans or the amongst the pros themselves - and ask who is more agile/who has the best legs:

Michael Vick
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

I think every single person, except for you, would agree Vick is by FAR the most agile, the quickest and the best runner of the three. And yet, for some odd reason, of the three, Vick has the lowest pass percentage, the least number of TD's and the lowest QB rating.

At the same time, Vick averaged 7.5 yards PER CARRY (find me a running back w/ a rushing average like this!) and had 3 rushing TD's last year. In 2002, he had 8 rushing TD's. Compare that to Brady's 0.7 yards/carry and 0 TD's, and Peyton's 1.5 yards/carry and 0 TD's.

Vick has the best legs of any QB in the league. period. trying to argue otherwise makes you look like a moron.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Le Petomane
So agility has nothing at all to do with throwing a football? TD's, and interceptions are VERY much related to a QB's ability. The Yards per catch depend upon your recievers. Sounds to me like you've been playing to much Madden. Any idiot can throw a football. But completions and TD passes are what makes a QB, which leaves Vick far from being a decent QB. A QB who can actually run the ball without getting hammered? It all has to do with pocket presence, another quality your admired Vick lacks. When your all growed up, and understand the game of football, come back and talk to me. Until then, stick with your PS2...

Well you've already been owned based on this argument. I'd just like to point out that you said "growed up". The proper word here would be grown. Do not try to hide, we know you are either A. 9 or B. An Idiot.


Congrats on proving to the rest of ATOT.


Oh, and for the record ESPN > Madden (The running game in ESPN pwnz, do bad they won't have a game this year )

 

[habib89]

LePetomane, you've already made yourself look like an idiot.. i dont' think anyone hates vick here.. a lot of us just agree that he cannot lead a team to winning a superbowl... and no, agility has nothing to do with qb rating, as have been said... qb rating is primarily a passing rating, hence the qb.. not wr, or rb.. qb..

i don't think anyone will argue that one of the best qb's ever is joe montana, and he was not agile.. sure he's more agile than i am.. but football wise, he isn't.. but damn that guy can throw..

yes, steve young was one of the best qb's of all time.. and he was a running qb.. and yes, the nfl is changing, but if you remember, steve young was not super accurate.. he was accurate enough and his running ability made him a huge threat on the field.. but his best asset was his skills as a leader... he knew how to use his teammates to win the game.. if the falcons are down, vick will run and run and run... but that kid sure can run

 

[RollWave]

Vick will not be successful. His play style is going to get him banged up year after year. In about 4 he'll be done.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: rnp614
Vick will not be successful. His play style is going to get him banged up year after year. In about 4 he'll be done.

Something to ponder: Most pocket quarterbacks with an average O-line will get sacked 25-45 times a year. They will get hit a lot more often than that. A few years ago David Carr was sacked over 50 times I believe. He got seriously jacked up that year.

We all know Vick is crazy and runs around like a crackhead going through withdrawls, and we all know he takes hits out on the field. But does he neccessarily take that many more hits than every other quarterback? I'm not sure. Whenever he feels pressure in the pocket (if he stays there) he's usually able to avoid the rush and get outside the tackles/run down the field. All those times that other quarterbacks would have taken sacks or been hit, Vick evades them and makes a run out of it. At this point we think wow he's going to get crushed, but he just evaded being crushed in the pocket. Now instead of being crushed by a 325 pound Dline man he is getting hit by a 185 Cornerback thats actually able to catch him. Or he's being pushed out of bounds. Or barley being hit as he slides to the ground.


Basically my point is that he takes different kind of hits than most quarterbacks, and Im not neccessarily sure they are more severe. The one thing I'd be considered about is him breaking his leg again or something of that sort, when a player is diving to take him down. Most QB's don't have injuries like that because they are stationary targets (for the most part). So instead you see guys like Young/Aikman who leave the game with major head injury, but you probably won't see Vick with that sort of injury, since its not very often he is going to be a sitting duck for you.

 

[NeoV]

wow - some of you should really stop posting in football threads.

Let's start with "Brady only wins because of the coaching staff and the great players around him". Wow. Name one all-pro WR on the Patriots during Brady's tenure there....I'll save you the trouble, there aren't any. Until Corey Dillon this past season, name their running backs - go ahead, I'll wait....... That is really one of the more ridiculous statements I've ever read about Football - Brady is a GREAT nfl QB - just because he wasn't a #1 pick doesn't mean he's not right up there at the top of the NFL QB list - he's top 5 for sure.

For those of you questioning whether Vick can lead the Falcons to a Superbowl win, this says it all for you:
Vick winning splits:

Vick not starting or plays a marginal amount of the game.

2004: 0-2
2003: 2-10
2002: 0-1


Vick playing for full game.

2004: 11-3
2003: 3-1
2002: 9-5-1

As someone posted earlier - the guy wins games, period. They have won playoff games with Vick - first team to win a playoff game AT Green Bay, the ultimate bad weather site, and a dome team wins there? Give the guy some credit!

Does he need better talent around him? Yes - they have drafted 2 pretty good wideouts in each of the last 2 drafts in White and Jenkins, and Price should at the very least be fired up to prove he can still play - Crumpler is a money TE, and their RB's are a great mix of speed and power with Dunn and Duckett...

Their D is the concern, and they've made some strides in that area as well. They will go as far as their D takes them - the offense should be just fine.

McNabb's season last year was by far his best - no coincidence with the arrival of TO that his numbers went way up - I'm sure Vick would welcome a WR like that, but for now he doesn't have one.

 

[FreshPrince]

until ron mexico learns the west coast offense, he will struggle. he needs to learn how to step into the pocket and make passes. stop scrambling!

GO FALCONS!

 

[Jawo]

Not to mention that Bryan Randall is there now...two of the best college qb's (randall was ACC player of the year last year) one the same team is insane! toss in UVA's Matt Schaub...now all you need is some more of a team, but w/o a doubt will have a great year this year!

 

[zebano]

Vick is certainly exciting, but I think his scrambles are a sign that he doesn't trust his receiving core to get the job done. One piece of the problem is that he is being forced into the west coast offense, granted he has been there long enough to know it, but short yardage possesion passes arn't what the falcons need. If Vick can run as well as a running back on a broken pass, why not take a shot downfield and failing that, let him scramble/go to Crumpler? I personally don't think that he will ever be a high accuracy passer, but with his running ability and leardership, they should be able to win a super bowl.

Vick wins games, and that is all that matters (see Tom Brady). Winning the big one however will take more than just his running ability. My prediction is that in a couple of years he will have faith in some reciever (maybe Price, but probably not) and when he starts throwing more far more often than he runs, they will win the super bowl.

 

[Tylanner]

unstoppable huh?

 

[msparish]

Originally posted by: habib89
yes, steve young was one of the best qb's of all time.. and he was a running qb.. and yes, the nfl is changing, but if you remember, steve young was not super accurate.. he was accurate enough and his running ability made him a huge threat on the field.. but his best asset was his skills as a leader... he knew how to use his teammates to win the game.. if the falcons are down, vick will run and run and run... but that kid sure can run

Um...I've agreed with most of what you've said, but you do realize that Young has the 2nd highest career completion percentage in NFL history at about 64.3%. 1st on the list is Kurt Warner, who is at 65.8%. However, if he plays long enough I imagine it will fall below Young's as he hasn't played as well for the past few years. Third on the list is Joe Montana at 63.2%. To say that Young was inaccurate--although true his first few years--is laughable.

Edit: The website I was using appears to be about a year behind, so throw Peyton Manning in there ahead of Joe at 63.5%

 

[PokerGuy]

Vick is the best example of the football QB paradox. You want a QB that is mobile to elude the rush, buy some time and then be able to pass. You can't teach speed. Unfortunately, the guys that do have the speed, have learned from a young age to rely on that speed and athletic ability to get the job done, thereby not improving their passing skills and their ability to hang in the pocket, take a hit and still get the pass completed when needed.

Bottom line, you need a QB that is fairly mobile, but not too much so. Steve Young, Joe Montana, McNabb come to mind. If you have to go one way or the other, it appears to me that the non-mobile QB with great passing skills is more valuable than the mobile one with no passing skills. I'll take Dan Marino in his prime over Vick any day of the week, twice on Sunday.