Fooling polygraph tests

[hdeck]

my dad fooled a polygraph test once...no clue how, though.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: hdeck
my dad fooled a polygraph test once...no clue how, though.

Something tells me there is a story here . . .

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
All a polygraph does is measure heart rate, blood pressure and perspiration (AFAIK). If you can either artificially elevate or depress your physiological processes then you can render a polygraph essentially useless (not that a polygraph is particularly reliable anyway). For example, if you learned meditation you could suppress your physiological systems and "fool" the polygraph.

It's really a fairly useless technology aside from the psychological effect it has on people if they happen to believe that it's accurate.

ZV

They are fairly accurate if given by someone with experience and they are conclusive. If the test is inconclusive there is no chance to expect an opinion of the results to be accurate.

You would have to change your rates individually based on the question, because a wholesale change of the measured processes would still produce a valid test. The methods I am most familiar with are needles implanted in the cuff of a shirt, thumbtack under a toe, and manipulation of the control questions.

If you could depress the rates sufficiently that they didn't raise in response to any question, or if you elevated the rates to such an extent that they didn't drop and couldn't raise I don't think it would be accurate. That's what I was thinking.

ZV

The problem is control rates are taken. It would be impossible for there not to be a change in rates between a control question and an actual question unless you were able to manipulate a variable each time.

But wouldn't you be able to screw with the control rates? And meditation is precisely the ability to calm all things physiological essentially "on cue", so wouldn't it theoretically work? I'm not trying to imply that it would be easy (it would be extremely difficult), but I think that if a person was determined that it would be possible.

ZV

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: hdeck
my dad fooled a polygraph test once...no clue how, though.

Something tells me there is a story here . . .

Yadda yadda yadda... we'll see him in 7-10 years.

 

[ryzmah]

It would be pretty difficult, because of how control rates are taken but Don Vito gave a good description. I had to answer every question at least five or six times to ensure consistency - lack of confidence in your answer will show up. For one of my questions I was a little unsure, and it came up as inconclusive so I reviewed it with my tester and once we cleared up the issue I came through as affirmative.

Federal agents for the most part are not trained to fool polygraph tests - for positions with high security clearance polygraph use is a major factor in granting and keeping that clearance. If they trained you to fool the system, it wouldn't make much sense.

 

[tweakmm]

It's going to be funny when Krassus is applying for his job and one of the polygraph questions is "have you gone on to any computer message boards to get advice on how to beat the tests we give"
they know more than you think:Q 😉

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
All a polygraph does is measure heart rate, blood pressure and perspiration (AFAIK). If you can either artificially elevate or depress your physiological processes then you can render a polygraph essentially useless (not that a polygraph is particularly reliable anyway). For example, if you learned meditation you could suppress your physiological systems and "fool" the polygraph.

It's really a fairly useless technology aside from the psychological effect it has on people if they happen to believe that it's accurate.

ZV

They are fairly accurate if given by someone with experience and they are conclusive. If the test is inconclusive there is no chance to expect an opinion of the results to be accurate.

You would have to change your rates individually based on the question, because a wholesale change of the measured processes would still produce a valid test. The methods I am most familiar with are needles implanted in the cuff of a shirt, thumbtack under a toe, and manipulation of the control questions.

If you could depress the rates sufficiently that they didn't raise in response to any question, or if you elevated the rates to such an extent that they didn't drop and couldn't raise I don't think it would be accurate. That's what I was thinking.

ZV

The problem is control rates are taken. It would be impossible for there not to be a change in rates between a control question and an actual question unless you were able to manipulate a variable each time.

But wouldn't you be able to screw with the control rates? And meditation is precisely the ability to calm all things physiological essentially "on cue", so wouldn't it theoretically work? I'm not trying to imply that it would be easy (it would be extremely difficult), but I think that if a person was determined that it would be possible.

ZV

Sure. If someone could meditate on demand they would have no problem completely invalidating the test or making it seem as if they were telling the truth. I will definitely concede that it could be done, but I don't think it would be very easy. I don't know much about meditation so you have got me on that idea.

Evan

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Actually it's very easy to fool a polygraph . . . IF you can UNrelate the question with the answers you give (in other words, you prepare an answer based on a cued "response" instead of attaching any "meaning" to the question).

HOWITIS has the right idea . . . but if you want to PASS you have to do your "homework".

I have actually used my "method" successfully - several times.

😛


You guys are making it WAY WAY TOO COMPLICATED.

Forget the Valium or needles or ice . . . myths 😛

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
All a polygraph does is measure heart rate, blood pressure and perspiration (AFAIK). If you can either artificially elevate or depress your physiological processes then you can render a polygraph essentially useless (not that a polygraph is particularly reliable anyway). For example, if you learned meditation you could suppress your physiological systems and "fool" the polygraph.

It's really a fairly useless technology aside from the psychological effect it has on people if they happen to believe that it's accurate.

ZV

They are fairly accurate if given by someone with experience and they are conclusive. If the test is inconclusive there is no chance to expect an opinion of the results to be accurate.

You would have to change your rates individually based on the question, because a wholesale change of the measured processes would still produce a valid test. The methods I am most familiar with are needles implanted in the cuff of a shirt, thumbtack under a toe, and manipulation of the control questions.

If you could depress the rates sufficiently that they didn't raise in response to any question, or if you elevated the rates to such an extent that they didn't drop and couldn't raise I don't think it would be accurate. That's what I was thinking.

ZV

The problem is control rates are taken. It would be impossible for there not to be a change in rates between a control question and an actual question unless you were able to manipulate a variable each time.

But wouldn't you be able to screw with the control rates? And meditation is precisely the ability to calm all things physiological essentially "on cue", so wouldn't it theoretically work? I'm not trying to imply that it would be easy (it would be extremely difficult), but I think that if a person was determined that it would be possible.

ZV

Sure. If someone could meditate on demand they would have no problem completely invalidating the test or making it seem as if they were telling the truth. I will definitely concede that it could be done, but I don't think it would be very easy. I don't know much about meditation so you have got me on that idea.

Evan

I don't know too much about it either (aside from that it's very hard), I was just presenting a hypothetical. Personally, I think that the easiest way to beat it would be to be truthful in everything. Either that, or develop a highly sophisticated rationalization system over the course of your life. 😉

ZV

 

[jimmygates]

I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

Well, if you honestly believe that it's none of their business, then just respond with, "It's none of your business" and the polygraph will veify that as the truth. 😉 😛

ZV

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

If it is for federal employment it is my goddamn business.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

If it is for federal employment it is my goddamn business.

The topic's title is: "Fooling polygraph tests"

I sure didn't mention "federal employment". 😛

And I think some of us may feel saying "its none of your business" may not be "appropriate" in some (possible) situations (either).

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.




-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

If it is for federal employment it is my goddamn business.

The topic's title is: "Fooling polygraph tests"

I sure didn't mention "federal employment". 😛

And I think some of us may feel saying "its none of your business" may not be "appropriate" in some (possible) situations (either).

Read the thread. This is not the first thread he has made tonight. He is seeking federal employment or interested in standards related to federal employment.
The person you replied to brought up these same points and you proceeded to say it was none of their business.
kthxbye.
:|

 

[jimmygates]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

If it is for federal employment it is my goddamn business.

The topic's title is: "Fooling polygraph tests"

I sure didn't mention "federal employment". 😛

And I think some of us may feel saying "its none of your business" may not be "appropriate" in some (possible) situations (either).

If Krassus is testing for a federal agency (FBI, ATF, CIA, etc etc) don't you think it's important he disclose as much as possible? Granted I believe employers are not allowed to ask certain questions regarding religion, sexual orientation which I believe should be kept private. I highly doubt ANY agency administering the polygraph will ask candidates stupid questions like "Do you masterbate," etc etc. Most polygraph examinations ask questions regarding past experiences with drugs, employers and friends. The test will show if a person has integrity or not. Would you really let someone with integrity issues manage the evidence locker and be our main source of protection?



-Jimbo

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: jimmygates

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

If it is for federal employment it is my goddamn business.

The topic's title is: "Fooling polygraph tests"

I sure didn't mention "federal employment". 😛

And I think some of us may feel saying "its none of your business" may not be "appropriate" in some (possible) situations (either).

If Krassus is testing for a federal agency (FBI, ATF, CIA, etc etc) don't you think it's important he disclose as much as possible? Granted I believe employers are not allowed to ask certain questions regarding religion, sexual orientation which I believe should be kept private. I highly doubt ANY agency administering the polygraph will ask candidates stupid questions like "Do you masterbate," etc etc. Most polygraph examinations ask questions regarding past experiences with drugs, employers and friends. The test will show if a person has integrity or not. Would you really let someone with integrity issues manage the evidence locker and be our main source of protection?



-Jimbo

I kid you not, but I have heard of masterbation being asked as a control question.

 

[hdeck]

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: hdeck
my dad fooled a polygraph test once...no clue how, though.

Something tells me there is a story here . . .

Yadda yadda yadda... we'll see him in 7-10 years.

actually if he passed a polygraph that would mean he would have gotten out of whatever he did wrong...work on your line of thinking. better yet, don't look so far into stuff guys. it was for a job interview at service merchandise when he was like 17. they asked if he had stolen from work before and he had *technically* done it at target (he let his friends not pay for everything they bought on one occasion). no big deal. he's grown up and responsible now!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: jimmygates

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jimmygates
I've taken many polygraph's. Passed everyone of them. Know the trick? TELL THE TRUTH.


I believe the only reason someone is subjected to a polygraph is for employment, usually in the field of law enforcement. With your inquiry about Federal Drug tests futher confirms my beliefs. A word of advice if your going the law enforcment route, be honest. Even if you become an officer/agent they can still terminate you if they find information about you that was falsified or undisclosed. Law enforcement agencies rather have someone who is honest than someone who looks great on the surface but lacks integrity.





-Jimbo

Good for you. But what IF you DON'T want to tell the truth?

Some of us may just think some of those questions are nobody's damn business. 😛

If it is for federal employment it is my goddamn business.

The topic's title is: "Fooling polygraph tests"

I sure didn't mention "federal employment". 😛

And I think some of us may feel saying "its none of your business" may not be "appropriate" in some (possible) situations (either).

If Krassus is testing for a federal agency (FBI, ATF, CIA, etc etc) don't you think it's important he disclose as much as possible? Granted I believe employers are not allowed to ask certain questions regarding religion, sexual orientation which I believe should be kept private. I highly doubt ANY agency administering the polygraph will ask candidates stupid questions like "Do you masterbate," etc etc. Most polygraph examinations ask questions regarding past experiences with drugs, employers and friends. The test will show if a person has integrity or not. Would you really let someone with integrity issues manage the evidence locker and be our main source of protection?



-Jimbo

I kid you not, but I have heard of masterbation being asked as a control question.

You other nitpickers can rail all you want with your "moral" issues.
I really was not talking AT ALL to you till you addressed me - and I do NOT care to. MY POINT is GENERAL - "Fooling polygraph tests" and completely UNRELATED to your employment discussions.

1) It is easy to fool a polygraph if you have the proper preparation and mindset.

2) It can and HAS been done.

Now that the information is OUT - it is up to each person to decide the moral issue of whether he will lie or not.

😛

 

[ryzmah]

Originally posted by: jimmygates

If Krassus is testing for a federal agency (FBI, ATF, CIA, etc etc) don't you think it's important he disclose as much as possible? Granted I believe employers are not allowed to ask certain questions regarding religion, sexual orientation which I believe should be kept private. I highly doubt ANY agency administering the polygraph will ask candidates stupid questions like "Do you masterbate," etc etc. Most polygraph examinations ask questions regarding past experiences with drugs, employers and friends. The test will show if a person has integrity or not. Would you really let someone with integrity issues manage the evidence locker and be our main source of protection?



-Jimbo

They didn't ask me anything about sexual orientation but the agency I applied with did psychological screening about satisfaction with sex life as well as asking questions about following the law - including whether I had illegally obtained any software or mp3's. Also, the investigators do inquire about your religion if it's clear it's an important part of your life - I know they did some interviews with my pastor to check whether my church's belief system was anything they should be concerned with. However, most of the polygraph questions were about drug use, treason, felonies, and then checking if you were honest in filling out your security forms.

 

[B00ne]

A polygraph is an esoteric unscientific and unreliable method - hence not allowed in court - except in the US but what else is new

 

[ryzmah]

Originally posted by: B00ne
A polygraph is an esoteric unscientific and unreliable method - hence not allowed in court - except in the US but what else is new

Polygraph tests are not allowed to be used in court in the US.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: B00ne
A polygraph is an esoteric unscientific and unreliable method - hence not allowed in court - except in the US but what else is new

Reasonably "accurate" results depend on the SKILL of the examiner.

And Polygraph tests don't generally count against you in criminal court cases but do if they support you.

If it became generally known how to beat them, they'd have even less respect. 😛

 

[jimmygates]

Originally posted by: ryzmah

Originally posted by: jimmygates

If Krassus is testing for a federal agency (FBI, ATF, CIA, etc etc) don't you think it's important he disclose as much as possible? Granted I believe employers are not allowed to ask certain questions regarding religion, sexual orientation which I believe should be kept private. I highly doubt ANY agency administering the polygraph will ask candidates stupid questions like "Do you masterbate," etc etc. Most polygraph examinations ask questions regarding past experiences with drugs, employers and friends. The test will show if a person has integrity or not. Would you really let someone with integrity issues manage the evidence locker and be our main source of protection?



-Jimbo

They didn't ask me anything about sexual orientation but the agency I applied with did psychological screening about satisfaction with sex life as well as asking questions about following the law - including whether I had illegally obtained any software or mp3's. Also, the investigators do inquire about your religion if it's clear it's an important part of your life - I know they did some interviews with my pastor to check whether my church's belief system was anything they should be concerned with. However, most of the polygraph questions were about drug use, treason, felonies, and then checking if you were honest in filling out your security forms.

Wow, what agency was this for? I remember for my Psychological written/interview I had to sign like 3-4 waivers stating that the test was voluntary and all answers given were at my own will. During the Psychological interview I remember them asking if I was satisfied with my sex life. I just answered yes and they moved on. My meaning of sexual orientation meant if you were straight, gay, transexual etc etc. They never asked about my religious background during the polygraph but they may in the psychological interview.



-Jimbo

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: B00ne
A polygraph is an esoteric unscientific and unreliable method - hence not allowed in court - except in the US but what else is new

They are not allowed in court in the US. Once again B00ne you look like a tool. What else is new?