Flat Tax

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Sure, you could make that argument - and many do regarding income tax. A consumption tax would not be theft as you do not pay the tax if you don't choose to buy.

BTW, if you haven't figured it out - I support a consumption based tax(with a floor) rather than an income based tax - progressive or flat. I just think the liberal argument against a flat tax is weak so it's an easy target.

I'd support a consumption tax if you exempt what poor folks buy or use. You could make up the funds by increasing the consumption tax on the items that carry the tax.. IF they can afford to buy that stuff they can afford to pay the tax. Maybe like a VAT.

Yep. Just like now, most food is non-tax. I'd also support a "floor" in the tax via tax credits for the first $x of tax. Similar in nature to the current standard deduction but it would be a true credit not deduction.

I like that idea, actually. It does a few things.... the main one is the providing of extra capital for job creation if income is not taxed. It is sorta of like tax incentive to create jobs currently possible.
Well off folks buying their yachts would pay for their pleasures.
Gasoline to power their massive cars would carry the tax. It would give incentives to create high mileage and green cars etc. to reduce consumption. The poor would pay the tax too but the credit you mentioned would make them whole. Besides, I see no difference between the cost of a 300,000$ car and a 500,000$ one. I'd not buy either of them. A rich guy might but that is choice. And I like that.
I think government could balance the budget pretty close because they have a handle on how many of the taxed items would be sold etc... and adjust the tax rate accordingly. I fear that folks would be less likely to buy stuff and more interested in investing... but that too is a subjective feeling not based in fact.
We could give a claw back of the tax for exported items to give advantage for that... like in VAT.
This idea has more merit in my opinion than a flat tax. It gives the choice to be taxed or not based on what one wishes to consume. I'd have to sit and figure out if there would be enough revenue to sustain the needs under a scenario like this but it sounds like a proposal many years ago that left my thinking as being not doable for some reason.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If they don't want to be taxed, they can choose not to earn so much.

Because the tax benefits of being poor greatly outweigh making more money and paying a little more in taxes :roll:

I'm just using the argument used against the rich routinely in this forum.

If the rich don't want to be taxed, don't make that much money. The same applies to the poor.

Why should anyone be allowed to live in this country and take advantage of it without having any skin in the game? If you only earned $100 this year, you earned that $100 because society allowed you to do so. Why shouldn't you put anything back into it?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If they don't want to be taxed, they can choose not to earn so much.

Because the tax benefits of being poor greatly outweigh making more money and paying a little more in taxes :roll:

I'm just using the argument used against the rich routinely in this forum.

If the rich don't want to be taxed, don't make that much money.

Then pay your fair share of taxes and stop whining.

 

[Elias824]

Im for the tax system that dosent require me to fill out pages of tax and income questions every year.

 

[Ryan711]

Originally posted by: Elias824
Im for the tax system that dosent require me to fill out pages of tax and income questions every year.

National sales tax?

 

[Engineer]

Not sure why we're discussing this anyway. Changing the tax code is going to be harder than health care reform, and that's been going on for nearly 100 years with no results yet. Not going to happen.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Zstream
So why are people against a flat tax regardless of income?

because liberals don't think a dollar = $1 if you make over a certain amount of money (note - "certain amount" is subject to their whim of the day)

That's true, but it isn't strictly a liberal position. The dollar spent to provide minimal food, shelter, and heat, is more important to a person than the dollar spent for the 2nd and 3rd yacht.

The people who should oppose flat tax are frequently the people who support it the most, everyone in the middle. A flat tax collects more from the middle and less from the rich, than a graduated tax. At least in theory, the middle class needs to fight to remove loopholes that undo the benefits of a graduated tax.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Zstream
So why are people against a flat tax regardless of income?

because liberals don't think a dollar = $1 if you make over a certain amount of money (note - "certain amount" is subject to their whim of the day)

That's true, but it isn't strictly a liberal position. The dollar spent to provide minimal food, shelter, and heat, is more important to a person than the dollar spent for the 2nd and 3rd yacht.

The people who should oppose flat tax are frequently the people who support it the most, everyone in the middle. A flat tax collects more from the middle and less from the rich, than a graduated tax. At least in theory, the middle class needs to fight to remove loopholes that undo the benefits of a graduated tax.

The utility of a dollar is subjective as has been talked about in this thread - so any differing level of taxation on that dollar based on utility will never be "fair" to all. However if you take emotion and subjectivity out and have everyone pay the same amount per dollar no one can claim it isn't "fair" since it's equal among everyone. However, that's really a problem of taxing labor instead of spending.

As to who should oppose it - again, it's subjective. Maybe some of us believe that being treated equally by the Fed gov't is more important than being subject to the emotional whims of the oft unreachable "ruling" class(elected officials).

 

[gotsmack]

For personal income taxes, I am for the flat tax with the first $15k tax free or $30k for married joint filers. long term cap gains get a deduction as determined by CPI going back up to 7 years. ALL other money gets taxed at whatever rate, NO OTHER DEDUCTIONS. The poor shouldn't complain because they won't pay any taxes.

I bet we would collect even more revenue under this because the the things is no matter what you set the tax rate as the rich end up paying less because they just find loopholes.

Things that get taxed under the flat tax as normal income will include: short term cap gains, stock options (at time of sale), anything inherited, face value of sports tickets, etc.

Things that will not get taxed are company perks such as a company car or cell phone or health insurance

The biggest thing that regular people will lose is the ability to deduct your home and education loans, but the deduction shouldn't be the reason people obtain these things.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY


As to who should oppose it - again, it's subjective. Maybe some of us believe that being treated equally by the Fed gov't is more important than being subject to the emotional whims of the oft unreachable "ruling" class(elected officials).

And if your taxes went up because of something like this, you would be crying like a schoolgirl.

I've come to a conclusion on this: I've decided I'm the CEO of me. The more I can get the better. I don't give a shit if the poor pay more or the rich pay more...as long as I don't pay more (yes, I'm serious and if anyone doesn't like it, too fucking bad. Nobody else is going to take care of me other than me...so I want MORE for me.). I should have changed to that position years ago. Finally opened my eyes. Not that it matters, as nothing will change in our lifetimes on this subject...no matter how much it's debated (or whatever this is).

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY


As to who should oppose it - again, it's subjective. Maybe some of us believe that being treated equally by the Fed gov't is more important than being subject to the emotional whims of the oft unreachable "ruling" class(elected officials).

And if your taxes went up because of something like this, you would be crying like a schoolgirl.

I've come to a conclusion on this: I've decided I'm the CEO of me. The more I can get the better. I don't give a shit if the poor pay more or the rich pay more...as long as I don't pay more (yes, I'm serious and if anyone doesn't like it, too fucking bad. Nobody else is going to take care of me other than me...so I want MORE for me.). I should have changed to that position years ago. Finally opened my eyes. Not that it matters, as nothing will change in our lifetimes on this subject...no matter how much it's debated (or whatever this is).

It's really a great position, the only thing to remember is short v. long term. Say you make 50k now and you prefer a progressive tax. Well maybe you'll earn a lot more at some point say 150k. Now a flat tax would give you a lot of extra money even if you sacrifice some of your income earlier. Just a thought.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY


As to who should oppose it - again, it's subjective. Maybe some of us believe that being treated equally by the Fed gov't is more important than being subject to the emotional whims of the oft unreachable "ruling" class(elected officials).

And if your taxes went up because of something like this, you would be crying like a schoolgirl.

I've come to a conclusion on this: I've decided I'm the CEO of me. The more I can get the better. I don't give a shit if the poor pay more or the rich pay more...as long as I don't pay more (yes, I'm serious and if anyone doesn't like it, too fucking bad. Nobody else is going to take care of me other than me...so I want MORE for me.). I should have changed to that position years ago. Finally opened my eyes. Not that it matters, as nothing will change in our lifetimes on this subject...no matter how much it's debated (or whatever this is).

It's really a great position, the only thing to remember is short v. long term. Say you make 50k now and you prefer a progressive tax. Well maybe you'll earn a lot more at some point say 150k. Now a flat tax would give you a lot of extra money even if you sacrifice some of your income earlier. Just a thought.

At that point, I will want a lower tax rate. It's about ME. Fuck everyone else's rate.

Turning point. I found out that the upper management of my company received the usual bonus last year even though the company lost money for the first time in over a decade. Everyone had to take a 5% pay cut in the US and many around the world (i.e. China, etc) volunteered to take a 5% cut to help the company's cash position and keep in business. After that slap in the face, I really don't have much faith in society anymore and say fuck it. Time to start taking care of me...fuck the rest.

 

[Elias824]

From Wikipeida "US Congressman Dick Armey has advocated a flat tax on all income in excess of an amount shielded by household type and size. For example, draft legislation proposed by Armey would allow married couples filing jointly to deduct $26,200, unmarried heads of household to deduct $17,200, and single adults, $13,100. $5,300 would be deducted for each dependent. A household would pay tax at a flat rate of 17% on the excess. Businesses would pay a flat 17% rate on all profits. Others have put forth similar proposals with various rates and deductions. Armey defined income to include only salary, wages, and pensions; capital gains and all other sources of wealth appreciation were excluded from taxation under his proposal.[52]

While campaigning for the American presidency in 1996 and 2000, Steve Forbes called for replacing the income tax - which would have included a repeal of the 16th Amendment - by a tax at the flat rate of 17% of consumption, defined as income minus savings, in excess of an amount determined by the type and size of the household.[citation needed] For example, the exempt amount for a family of four would be $42,000 per year.

Modified flat taxes have been proposed which would allow deductions for a very few items, while still eliminating the vast majority of existing deductions. Charitable deductions and home mortgage interest are the most discussed exceptions, as these are popular with voters and often used."

You could have a flat tax that wouldnt kill the poor, they would largly be exempt from it just as they are now. The big advantage I see of a flat tax is its simple, no loopholes, no more "special exemptions" then necessary. You also wouldnt have the stupid issue of OH no I made 61k, now im 1k over the tax line and ive got to pay 5k extra in taxes. I think a flat tax as long as it was properly implementd would work out pretty well, but the devil is in the details, and as is with tax code there will be ALOT of details.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Elias824
You also wouldnt have the stupid issue of OH no I made 61k, now im 1k over the tax line and ive got to pay 5k extra in taxes.

You clearly don't know how "marginal" tax rates work "if" you believe what you just typed.

 

[Elias824]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Elias824
You also wouldnt have the stupid issue of OH no I made 61k, now im 1k over the tax line and ive got to pay 5k extra in taxes.

You clearly don't know how "marginal" tax rates work "if" you believe what you just typed.

well apparently im off on that, I apologize for my ignorance of the tax system. I guess I need to do abit more reading.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Elias824

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Elias824
You also wouldnt have the stupid issue of OH no I made 61k, now im 1k over the tax line and ive got to pay 5k extra in taxes.

You clearly don't know how "marginal" tax rates work "if" you believe what you just typed.

well apparently im off on that, I apologize for my ignorance of the tax system. I guess I need to do abit more reading.

:thumbsup: and

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Elias824

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Elias824
You also wouldnt have the stupid issue of OH no I made 61k, now im 1k over the tax line and ive got to pay 5k extra in taxes.

You clearly don't know how "marginal" tax rates work "if" you believe what you just typed.

well apparently im off on that, I apologize for my ignorance of the tax system. I guess I need to do abit more reading.

:thumbsup: and

Just to provide a quick answer, the way the system works is you only pay the higher rate on the income that breached the new tax bracket, not the entire income.

 

[1prophet]

The real rich don't work for money, money works for them usually under the corporate structure which has benefits and deductions not available to those that make money through a job getting a paycheck.


That is why this constant talk of changing the personal income tax structure (like a flat tax) or raising taxes while not doing something similar with the system known as corporations is somehow going to make the rich pay more is nothing but a feel good farce to get votes, and usually ends up biting the middleclass and poor in the end not the rich.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If they don't want to be taxed, they can choose not to earn so much.

Because the tax benefits of being poor greatly outweigh making more money and paying a little more in taxes :roll:

I'm just using the argument used against the rich routinely in this forum.

If the rich don't want to be taxed, don't make that much money.

Then pay your fair share of taxes and stop whining.

I pay more than you do, scumbag. I guarantee it.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If they don't want to be taxed, they can choose not to earn so much.

Because the tax benefits of being poor greatly outweigh making more money and paying a little more in taxes :roll:

I'm just using the argument used against the rich routinely in this forum.

If the rich don't want to be taxed, don't make that much money.

Then pay your fair share of taxes and stop whining.

I pay more than you do, scumbag. I guarantee it.

I don't think dmcowen is the scumbag.

You want to punish the middle class even more than they are being punished already...

 

[rchiu]

heh funny to see all these Republicans and conservatives wanting to copy a tax system so far been adopted only in former communist countries.

Yeap, that's a forward progress alright.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If they don't want to be taxed, they can choose not to earn so much.

Because the tax benefits of being poor greatly outweigh making more money and paying a little more in taxes :roll:

I'm just using the argument used against the rich routinely in this forum.

If the rich don't want to be taxed, don't make that much money.

Then pay your fair share of taxes and stop whining.

I pay more than you do, scumbag. I guarantee it.

I don't think dmcowen is the scumbag.

You want to punish the middle class even more than they are being punished already...

You honestly believe that a flat tax with no exemptions will punish the middle class? What happened to all the whining about how the rich don't pay as high an effective percentage as the middle class? If under a progressive tax the wealthy still find a way to pay a lower effective rate, how can a completely flat tax be any worse?

Need I say it again? Complex tax laws benefit the wealthy.

 

[piasabird]

This assumes that someone that makes 20,000 a year will pay any tax. I started my first job out of college at $19,000.00 so I know what I am talking about. I think the real problem is that accountants will be put out of work under the flat tax. If all you have to do is fill out a 1/2 page form saying what money you made and then pay your flat % rate then a lot of people that make money off of the tax system will be put out of a job.

The sad fact is that politicians stay in office finding new ways to pit the rich against the poor. They find all kinds of deductions to support different economical groups. If they could do this no more then there would not be enough things left to argue about. Taxation is about hate and power.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If they don't want to be taxed, they can choose not to earn so much.

Because the tax benefits of being poor greatly outweigh making more money and paying a little more in taxes :roll:

I'm just using the argument used against the rich routinely in this forum.

If the rich don't want to be taxed, don't make that much money.

Then pay your fair share of taxes and stop whining.

I pay more than you do, scumbag. I guarantee it.

I don't think dmcowen is the scumbag.

You want to punish the middle class even more than they are being punished already...

You honestly believe that a flat tax with no exemptions will punish the middle class? What happened to all the whining about how the rich don't pay as high an effective percentage as the middle class? If under a progressive tax the wealthy still find a way to pay a lower effective rate, how can a completely flat tax be any worse?

Need I say it again? Complex tax laws benefit the wealthy.

Flat Tax on someone making 1,250,000 a year will reduce their tax payout by a TON while increasing it on someone making 50,000 by a lot.

Just another way to make the rich richer and the middle class poorer.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: TruePaige

I don't think dmcowen is the scumbag.

You want to punish the middle class even more than they are being punished already...

You honestly believe that a flat tax with no exemptions will punish the middle class? What happened to all the whining about how the rich don't pay as high an effective percentage as the middle class? If under a progressive tax the wealthy still find a way to pay a lower effective rate, how can a completely flat tax be any worse?

Need I say it again? Complex tax laws benefit the wealthy.

And I'll say again that it's not the progressiveness of the tax law that benefits the wealthy, it's all the loopholes.

In other words, you honestly believe that a progressive tax with no exemptions would punish the middle class more than a flat tax with no exemptions?