Flash memory MP3 players

[Muse]

I'm wondering about the flash MP3 players, what's apt to be the problem when they die. Assuming the switches and buttons keep on working and no wires work their way loose or break, I figure that they last until the flash memory stops functioning properly. Writes, erases and rewrites wear on the flash memory until it no longer functions. Probably not all of it, but some of it and the player no longer works. I'm wondering if they use some memory space more than others (physical space). In particular it seems to me that they probably have a buffering system that's written to from the MP3 file being played. If that buffer is assigned to a specific set of memory, that would be the memory that would die first. Am I on target here?

 

[StevenYoo]

i thought it was the little gnome that lives inside carrying the music back and forth that died first.

 

[Jeff7]

Flash is said to be good for at least 100,000 write cycles.
And I'd expect any buffer to be a separate DRAM chip, which should be good indefinitely.

 

[PottedMeat]

Shit wear leveling algorithm?
Shit firmware - some combination of settings -> unknown state?
Shit solder connections?

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: PottedMeat
Shit wear leveling algorithm?
Shit firmware - some combination of settings -> unknown state?
Shit solder connections?

Solder connections, yes. Well, if the player is used "gently" maybe they don't break. In the case of my Sansa m250s I figure a likely culprit is some bug in the firmware that disables the player. I've read a lot of posts that seem to indicate that this happens a lot. I'm so far so good with mine.

 

[frostedflakes]

The flash should be pretty durable. The only writes to it will be when syncing music, and that will be sequential writes. Random writes are what really tears up flash.

FWIW, the LCD controller went out on my iPod Nano about 6 months ago. I don't know what the most common point of failure on these devices is, but that's what crapped out first on mine.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
The flash should be pretty durable. The only writes to it will be when syncing music, and that will be sequential writes. Random writes are what really tears up flash.

FWIW, the LCD controller went out on my iPod Nano about 6 months ago. I don't know what the most common point of failure on these devices is, but that's what crapped out first on mine.

What do you mean "syncing music?" What are random writes and what would cause them to happen?

I wonder sometimes if it might be a bad idea to try to write a file to my players (2 GB) when there isn't much extra space. For instance I often write ~170 MB files (big 3 hour MP3s) and if there's only around 250 MB free I figure that the player may have to fragment the file and I figure that may cause undo "wear." I don't know if that's the same thing you're talking about.

 

[natto fire]

I'm pretty sure flash memory is fast enough that it wouldn't need to buffer anything. I have a Sansa m240 that is pushing 4 years and still works flawlessly, and considering I only paid $60 for it back then (I believe they go for around $10 if you can even find them now) I think I got my money's worth. If you factor in the fact I am running on the original Ni-MH battery set I got with charger for ~$20 then I did pretty well. Can't say for sure until this player dies but I think I got a great return on my flash based player when compared to an HDD one, such as an iPod. (Li-Ion batteries do not last for 4 years BTW)

 

[0roo0roo]

by the time it wears out its write cycles its going to be worthless basically. unless you do something bone headed like stick your swap file on it the write cycles mp3 players see aren't all that stressful more likely to die.the screen, then the buttons, then the battery....even on sony players its not easy to change the battery, probably cost more to than buying a new player after a while.

lithium ion batteries...how long they lasts depends on treatment. if you deep drain them all the time or leave them to bake in the car it'll die fast. otherwise the gentle drain of mp3 players can be rather good for battery longevity

 

[Colt45]

batteries, follow by physical stuffs.. buttons, soldering, etc.. getting dropped in water, etc. flash should last forever unless you're overwriting it _all the time_

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: Captain Howdy
I'm pretty sure flash memory is fast enough that it wouldn't need to buffer anything. I have a Sansa m240 that is pushing 4 years and still works flawlessly, and considering I only paid $60 for it back then (I believe they go for around $10 if you can even find them now) I think I got my money's worth. If you factor in the fact I am running on the original Ni-MH battery set I got with charger for ~$20 then I did pretty well. Can't say for sure until this player dies but I think I got a great return on my flash based player when compared to an HDD one, such as an iPod. (Li-Ion batteries do not last for 4 years BTW)

The AAA use of the m2xx players (recording too, you can actually record with the built in mic, although I use my iRiver H1xx's for that) is the reason I'm sticking with them. Carrying extra NiMH AAA's is no problem. Babying a Lion is something I do when I have to, but in this case there's an alternative. Even my digicam uses NiMH!

Well, the open question is whether there's a DRAM chip in there for buffering or they just use a dedicated area of flash for buffering. There's a page or two with detailed pictures and descriptions of the m2xx player. I'll try to find it and link it here.

 

[lxskllr]

When they die, it's just bad luck. Electronics don't last forever.

 

[BlueAcolyte]

I thought flash was good for almost unlimited reads, just not writes?

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
by the time it wears out its write cycles its going to be worthless basically. unless you do something bone headed like stick your swap file on it the write cycles mp3 players see aren't all that stressful more likely to die.the screen, then the buttons, then the battery....even on sony players its not easy to change the battery, probably cost more to than buying a new player after a while.

lithium ion batteries...how long they lasts depends on treatment. if you deep drain them all the time or leave them to bake in the car it'll die fast. otherwise the gentle drain of mp3 players can be rather good for battery longevity

As I understand it, li-ion batteries also have a limited life simply from existing - they lose a certain capacity each year, whether or not they're used.

And Captain Howdy is probably correct that Flash can read fast enough to negate the need for a buffer.
Wikipedia gives 150KB/sec as the "1x" speed for flash, which would be 1228800 bits per second. Since the highest-quality MP3 bitrate that I know of is only 320kbps, it seems that even very slow Flash could handle unbuffered playback.

 

[0roo0roo]

lithium ion batteries do have a shelf life...and they do die over time. but how long this takes also depends on usage pattern.

 

[Eli]

No. The LiIon battery will die before the flash memory reaches its MTBF.

Unless you're adding many megabytes of new files and deleting old ones every day perhaps.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
lithium ion batteries do have a shelf life...and they do die over time. but how long this takes also depends on usage pattern.

I have the original lion battery in a cell phone I bought over 4.5 years ago. Don't use it a lot and have tried to use it gently. Never drain completely, usually don't charge to the limit, and typically I keep it at medium capacity. Seems OK. I remember hearing that they typically last maybe a couple of years but can have longer life if treated better.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

I'd expect the connectors to be the first thing that goes. Next up would be the battery, buttons, then screen/backlight.