Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

[ericlp]

I'm not sure how procedures work ... but, I guess the doctor did something wrong.

Anyway, this isn't a pro choice or pro life debate is it? Maybe it should be on how poorly these doctors are trained and just be lucky it was not you or I he was working on. I mean..... This crap happens all the time. If you want to fix this stuff, then we need better funding in the schools to properly train people in these positions.

Let's look at the real cause shall we? Abortion was and never was a glorious procedure but........ Neither is doing a heart transplant or pulling impacted wisdom teeth. I dunno, If you can avoid it then do it! The point is, you better be picking your doctor wisely and make sure that fucker knows what he or she is doing .... As this is nothing new and there are lot's of botched up failures out there. As for the person suggesting you should watch the procedure on the internet, well, I'd rather not. Have you ever watched a open heart surgery or knee or hip transplant? Well, I have on tv once. Tho, it's disgusting and just like an abortion I hope I never have to fund one.

Tho, on the other hand... I am glad the 'option' is available to me.

 

[shira]

Most of the people on this thread have problems with reading comprehension.

There was no abortion at all.

The baby was delivered, naturally, BEFORE the physician arrived.

The physician says he wasn't told the baby was delivered. That may become a point of contention, but I see no information indicating otherwise.

The baby was placed in a box by one of the staffers at the clinic, without the physician's knowledge. Again, this could become a potential point of contention, but I see no information in the story stating otherwise.

Thus, I'm perplexed as to why people on this thread are railing against the physician. Some even demand his execution.

Does anyone READ, or is it all emotion driven by ignorance?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: AAjax
I seem to remember Ron Paul stating that he witnessed a situation such as this when he was a young doctor, and thus shaped his views on abortion altogether. This might happen allot more than people care to admit.

If people actually witnessed all aspects of the various abortion procedures (yes there are movies available on the internet), then I would feel that they have a moral right to an opinion on the subject. Beware...not for the faint of heart.

Decisions based on pure emotion are virtually never the best decisions.

Fixed for you. Good thing we base our rules on reason, not emotional response to gory pictures or videos. To me abortion is no different than any other surgery

Then why is this incident at all reprehensible to you?

It wasn't any more reprehensible than any other manslaughter - they just killed a infant.

You seem to miss the main idea that when delivery occurs, you're no longer talking about a fetus but rather a minor. So depending on the jurisdiction, you got from abortion to manslaughter.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: AAjax
I seem to remember Ron Paul stating that he witnessed a situation such as this when he was a young doctor, and thus shaped his views on abortion altogether. This might happen allot more than people care to admit.

If people actually witnessed all aspects of the various abortion procedures (yes there are movies available on the internet), then I would feel that they have a moral right to an opinion on the subject. Beware...not for the faint of heart.

Decisions based on pure emotion are virtually never the best decisions.

Fixed for you. Good thing we base our rules on reason, not emotional response to gory pictures or videos. To me abortion is no different than any other surgery

Then why is this incident at all reprehensible to you?

It wasn't any more reprehensible than any other manslaughter - they just killed a infant.

You seem to miss the main idea that when delivery occurs, you're no longer talking about a fetus but rather a minor. So depending on the jurisdiction, you got from abortion to manslaughter.

Um, no. You got from pre-delivery, to delivery, and then manslaughter. There was no abortion, and I don't know why people keep pretending this WAS an abortion.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: AAjax
I seem to remember Ron Paul stating that he witnessed a situation such as this when he was a young doctor, and thus shaped his views on abortion altogether. This might happen allot more than people care to admit.

If people actually witnessed all aspects of the various abortion procedures (yes there are movies available on the internet), then I would feel that they have a moral right to an opinion on the subject. Beware...not for the faint of heart.

Decisions based on pure emotion are virtually never the best decisions.

Fixed for you. Good thing we base our rules on reason, not emotional response to gory pictures or videos. To me abortion is no different than any other surgery

Then why is this incident at all reprehensible to you?

It wasn't any more reprehensible than any other manslaughter - they just killed a infant.

You seem to miss the main idea that when delivery occurs, you're no longer talking about a fetus but rather a minor. So depending on the jurisdiction, you got from abortion to manslaughter.

Um, no. You got from pre-delivery, to delivery, and then manslaughter. There was no abortion, and I don't know why people keep pretending this WAS an abortion.

Right, it's the same argument in any case - if there's delivery, it's not abortion.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: smack Down
You seem to be say that the fetus has the right to medical care.

It's not a fetus after it's born, it's a child. The child does not have the right to free healthcare, but the mother is obligated to provide care, and the doctor is obligated to provide life-saving care (though it doesn't sound like a doctor was present). No one has the right to hasten the child's death (as is alleged to have happened).

A doctor would have no obligation to treat the fetus because it is not their patient and they are not in an ER. Additional I don't think you will find any court case that require a specific level of care for terminal patients. You will find the opposite where parents are allowed to take their children off life support.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: smack Down
You seem to be say that the fetus has the right to medical care.

It's not a fetus after it's born, it's a child. The child does not have the right to free healthcare, but the mother is obligated to provide care, and the doctor is obligated to provide life-saving care (though it doesn't sound like a doctor was present). No one has the right to hasten the child's death (as is alleged to have happened).

A doctor would have no obligation to treat the fetus because it is not their patient and they are not in an ER. Additional I don't think you will find any court case that require a specific level of care for terminal patients. You will find the opposite where parents are allowed to take their children off life support.

......

Reading is your friend.

 

[fallout man]

I'm pro-choice, but this is some sick repugnant shit.

I don't beleive that abortions should be carried out this late in gestation anyway (pending really serious mitigating circumstances). Late term abortions border on murder, in my opinion. You're bound to know you're preggo 23 weeks into the pregnancy. If you know you can't keep the child, or don't want to bother going through with the pregnancy and giving the child up for adoption, then take care of it as soon as you realize you have a bun in the oven (which is way way way before 23 weeks for 99.9% of women).

This looks to be a really twisted combination of:

- a doc with a Carribean degree who is already on thin ice regarding his ability to practice (he could only perform procedures when there was another MD present).

-doc not being present at all when patient is prepped/given drugs (that will probably lead to early labor)

-some douchebag clinic owner who takes it upon himself to participate, instead of calling a doctor or an ambulance.

The doc was wrong to have the woman get prepped and drugged when he clearly wasn't available (or on the premises, for that matter). For this fiasco, he'll likely say goodbye to his license. Was he delivering a fucking pizza at the time, and got a call to tend to another emergency?

The clinic owner is the one who, for all intents and purposes, killed a newborn. Sure the child may not have survived, but "he scooped it off onto the floor?" WTF. String him up.

 

[RichardE]

For some reason, I can't get to the buffalownews site at all from my location. Can someone paste the story again please? I wanted to froward it.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: shira
Most of the people on this thread have problems with reading comprehension.

There was no abortion at all.

The baby was delivered, naturally, BEFORE the physician arrived.

The physician says he wasn't told the baby was delivered. That may become a point of contention, but I see no information indicating otherwise.

The baby was placed in a box by one of the staffers at the clinic, without the physician's knowledge. Again, this could become a potential point of contention, but I see no information in the story stating otherwise.

Thus, I'm perplexed as to why people on this thread are railing against the physician. Some even demand his execution.

Does anyone READ, or is it all emotion driven by ignorance?

That's my understanding from the article. The only thing the doctor is guilty of by the facts in the article would be showing up late because of another medical emergency.

I would question why the staff who threw the body out is not in jail.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
What a perverse people we've become....the depravity of man has no bounds.

Yep... we kill the innocent and (sometimes) applaud the guilty.

 

[mattpegher]

I have attempted to resucitate two premature births in my career, 19 weeks and 21 weeks, in mothers who presented to our ED, in a hospital without an OB/GYN on staff. Dispite my best efforts neither child lived more than 15 minutes and I have been told by perinatologists that they would have had little chance even had they presented to a facility with a NICU.

I was instructed by the OB/gyns that I was able to reach at the time that I should not have even bothered that I was being unnecessarily heroic.

So to take an objective view of this case, I will say that the physician is guilty of improper proceedure and trying to hide it, but murder is not accurate.

As one who has tried to keep alive infants who deliver prematurely in our ED, without a NICU and Highly trained personel this child/fetus had no chance of survival. It is most likely that the personnel of this clinic simply did nothing to aid the child. This is far from murder.

The error here is attempting to abort via partial birth abortion a pregnancy at 23 weeks. What I want to know is why so late.

That said I am personnally adverse to abortion, but cannot judge others so am technically prochoice. I would not choose to be an OB/gyn esp not one who does abortions so I remove myself from the practical portion of such debate. I often wonder why elective second trimester abortion is necessary but I guess each case is different. The problem with abortion legislation is that you have 2 sides, one that wants all abortions legal up to birth and one that wants no abortions legal even the morning after pill. Given these two sides no reasonable legislation or moral ground is acceptable to either and no moral debate can take place.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I have attempted to resucitate two premature births in my career, 19 weeks and 21 weeks, in mothers who presented to our ED, in a hospital without an OB/GYN on staff. Dispite my best efforts neither child lived more than 15 minutes and I have been told by perinatologists that they would have had little chance even had they presented to a facility with a NICU.

I was instructed by the OB/gyns that I was able to reach at the time that I should not have even bothered that I was being unnecessarily heroic.

So to take an objective view of this case, I will say that the physician is guilty of improper proceedure and trying to hide it, but murder is not accurate.

As one who has tried to keep alive infants who deliver prematurely in our ED, without a NICU and Highly trained personel this child/fetus had no chance of survival. It is most likely that the personnel of this clinic simply did nothing to aid the child. This is far from murder.

The error here is attempting to abort via partial birth abortion a pregnancy at 23 weeks. What I want to know is why so late.

That said I am personnally adverse to abortion, but cannot judge others so am technically prochoice. I would not choose to be an OB/gyn esp not one who does abortions so I remove myself from the practical portion of such debate. I often wonder why elective second trimester abortion is necessary but I guess each case is different. The problem with abortion legislation is that you have 2 sides, one that wants all abortions legal up to birth and one that wants no abortions legal even the morning after pill. Given these two sides no reasonable legislation or moral ground is acceptable to either and no moral debate can take place.

The physician did no such thing. He wasn't even on the premises. The person who dumped the infant was the owner of the clinic, and apparently not a medical professional in any way, shape, or form.

While a physician should be able to make an educated judgement call to let the infant expire on its own, I really don't think that Joe Blow working the clerical desk in the office should be able to make such a decision.

This seems like a case of the clinic owner going "ohshi--we can't have this happen..."

 

[mattpegher]

I agree fallout man, the clinic owner was the one present but legally the physician must have left orders for them to start the proceedure with whatever meds were used to dilate the cervix, so he is resposible medically.

The owner might be criminally negligent re: his/her behavior when the delivery occured.

The question is who should be punished. I am inclined to think that the owner should be criminally liable.
The physician could be held medically negligent in a malpractice case but could the state seek recourse on behalf of the child or is the family/mother seeking damages.
The facility could have its license revoked if it is found that its proceedures violated state regs in initiating dilatory meds prior to the presence of the physician.
The doctor may be free from criminal charges but he may still be investigated by the state board, and his license could be in jeopardy pending this review. It looks like the state already chose this route:
"The board on Friday found Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique in violation of Florida statutes by committing medical malpractice, delegating responsibility to unlicensed personnel, and failing to keep an accurate medical record. Renelique and his attorney declined to comment after the hearing."

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
What a perverse people we've become....the depravity of man has no bounds.

Yep... we kill the innocent and (sometimes) applaud the guilty.

5 years in Iraq would give you the same conclusion.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I agree fallout man, the clinic owner was the one present but legally the physician must have left orders for them to start the proceedure with whatever meds were used to dilate the cervix, so he is resposible medically.

The owner might be criminally negligent re: his/her behavior when the delivery occured.

The question is who should be punished. I am inclined to think that the owner should be criminally liable.
The physician could be held medically negligent in a malpractice case but could the state seek recourse on behalf of the child or is the family/mother seeking damages.
The facility could have its license revoked if it is found that its proceedures violated state regs in initiating dilatory meds prior to the presence of the physician.
The doctor may be free from criminal charges but he may still be investigated by the state board, and his license could be in jeopardy pending this review. It looks like the state already chose this route:
"The board on Friday found Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique in violation of Florida statutes by committing medical malpractice, delegating responsibility to unlicensed personnel, and failing to keep an accurate medical record. Renelique and his attorney declined to comment after the hearing."

Indeed.

The doc fucked up, and given that he was already on thin ice (as I've posted earlier), he is going to lose his license. Good fucking riddance.

However, I feel that his behavior was ecouraged by lax protocols in the facility where he practiced. That is really fucking inexcusable.

As I've mentioned in my previous post, I'm pro-choice. This doesn't mean that I'm comfortable with a slaughterhouse. There's a fine line, and that line is crossed when abortions are carried out as "6-months after my baby-daddy left me and I don't want it no mo'" situations. Fuck that. Squeeze it out, and give it up for adoption. American couples won't have to travel to China to pick up the baby.

Many folks dropped the ball in this situation, and they're all liable in one way or another, based on what I've read about this story. We'll see what happens.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: AAjax
I seem to remember Ron Paul stating that he witnessed a situation such as this when he was a young doctor, and thus shaped his views on abortion altogether. This might happen allot more than people care to admit.

If people actually witnessed all aspects of the various abortion procedures (yes there are movies available on the internet), then I would feel that they have a moral right to an opinion on the subject. Beware...not for the faint of heart.

Decisions based on pure emotion are virtually never the best decisions.

Fixed for you. Good thing we base our rules on reason, not emotional response to gory pictures or videos. To me abortion is no different than any other surgery

If pictures represent the reality of a situation, one can come to a certain understanding about the procedure. Not by pictures alone, but pictures do help to get a better grasp of he situation.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: shira
Most of the people on this thread have problems with reading comprehension.

There was no abortion at all.

The baby was delivered, naturally, BEFORE the physician arrived.

The physician says he wasn't told the baby was delivered. That may become a point of contention, but I see no information indicating otherwise.

The baby was placed in a box by one of the staffers at the clinic, without the physician's knowledge. Again, this could become a potential point of contention, but I see no information in the story stating otherwise.

Thus, I'm perplexed as to why people on this thread are railing against the physician. Some even demand his execution.

Does anyone READ, or is it all emotion driven by ignorance?

It seems very strange to me that one could think that if the "package" is inside the mother at 23 weeks it is a fetus and this makes it ok to kill, but if the "package" is birthed at 23 weeks, to kill it is murder.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: spittledip
It seems very strange to me that one could think that if the "package" is inside the mother at 23 weeks it is a fetus and this makes it ok to kill, but if the "package" is birthed at 23 weeks, to kill it is murder.

Like it or not, if abortion is legal, then somewhere there needs to be a line drawn. On one side of the line, it's a baby, on the other side of the line, it's medical waste.

 

[between]

 

[LumbergTech]

infanticide has been historically much more common than people want to admit....

every generation reaches a point where they call doom and gloom and pretend like the current times are somehow a degradation of some former level of decency.....of course this is delusional..things have been fucked up since day 1

im not really relating this to this case necessarily...just some random posts about how horrendous abortion is etc

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: spittledip
It seems very strange to me that one could think that if the "package" is inside the mother at 23 weeks it is a fetus and this makes it ok to kill, but if the "package" is birthed at 23 weeks, to kill it is murder.

Like it or not, if abortion is legal, then somewhere there needs to be a line drawn. On one side of the line, it's a baby, on the other side of the line, it's medical waste.

Yeah, I hear you. "Legal" and "moral" are 2 completely different things of course.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: spittledip
It seems very strange to me that one could think that if the "package" is inside the mother at 23 weeks it is a fetus and this makes it ok to kill, but if the "package" is birthed at 23 weeks, to kill it is murder.

Like it or not, if abortion is legal, then somewhere there needs to be a line drawn. On one side of the line, it's a baby, on the other side of the line, it's medical waste.

That doesn't seem inconsistent to you?

How is it we define humanity by the subject's physical location?

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
What a perverse people we've become....the depravity of man has no bounds.

Yep... we kill the innocent and (sometimes) applaud the guilty.

5 years in Iraq would give you the same conclusion.

I would appreciate it if you would stay on my topic.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: between
it's a shame a physician's career is destroyed, for no other reason that people's irrational need to "protect" and "nurture" a lump of biomass that was never going to survive anyway.

That is not why the physician's career is destroyed.

The board on Friday found Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique in violation of Florida statutes by committing medical malpractice, delegating responsibility to unlicensed personnel, and failing to keep an accurate medical record. Renelique and his attorney declined to comment after the hearing.

During the board's questioning, Dr. Elizabeth D. Tucker, an obstetrician-gynecologist from Pensacola, asked Renelique about three different types of medical forceps. Renelique replied that he possessed each of the instruments.

After each question, Tucker also held up a metal instrument, different from the one she had named and inquired about. One of the tools was a metal rod with an arrow attached at the tip.

Tucker asked Renelique if he had that. He replied that he did.

"For the record, these are from my antique collection," she said later. "We don't use these in terminations."

Harrison said Renelique expected the board to uphold the current restriction on his license, which prohibits him from performing abortions unless another physician is present.

(side note - if another physician was supposed to be present, where was he? Was he several hours late too?)

It was the opinion of qualified medical professionals (not the knee-jerk reactions of the public) that this guy was not qualified to practice medicine.