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First time Marijuana arrest of 18 year old nets him 26 Year sentence
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Buying pot doesn't support Terrorism. Buying Heroin/Opium does.
95% of the heroin on the streets comes from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran, areas that favor the cultivation of the opium poppy. Since the attacks on the World Trade Center and the pentagon, the price of refined opium at source has decreased by almost seven times, from 2,000 USD for 4 packet of 4 kg. to around 300 USD.
The reason for the decline is traffickers are trying to free themselves of their stock before impending air raids in that area of the world.
docmanhattan
Golden Member
LOL.
He'll be the replacement for the "Free Mumia" posters or "Free Kevin Mitnik" posters that were plastered _everywhere_ when i was college...
Honestly, this discussion has gone way off topic. We shouldnt bother comparing what drug impares more or debating on whether a drug's legality makes it "ok".
A drug is a drug.
All drugs have the capacity for abuse. Some moreso than others certainly, but no one would argue against the basic fact that both legal and illegal drugs are abused in America.
No one likes Drug abuse. We can all agree on that! It ruins lives, careers and families. It needs to be addressed. The crux of this conversation should remain focused on HOW we address drug abuse and drug use.
Is stiff, draconian sentencing the solution? Is ruining a person's life by placing them in prison really the best possible thing we can do? For anyone to say that something like what has happened to this fellow (26 years in prision) is acceptable is, in my mind, deplorable! It simply doesnt make any sense!
The answer to drug use/abuse is education. We need to teach people that people use drugs, and that there are consequences to these actions.
Currently, America stigmatizes drugs. "Just say no"....... ok fine, but why!?
Because drugs are bad?
That's just not good enough. Stigmatizing something like this only serves to make it more attractive, especially so to young and often rebellious teen-agers.
I don't think the public have the straight facts about drugs. They should be delivered in a non-biased way (there are no good or bad drugs, only good and bad use of drugs). They should focus on the health effects and explain very carefully the inherent capacity all drugs have for abuse.
No one wants to ruin thier lives with drug abuse and dependancy, of that we can be sure. We can also be sure that some people do. Isn't the toll that this abuse takes on thier life and well being the greatest punishment? Is adding prison time and a criminal record to thier obvious issues solving, or compounding the issue?
This young man's life has been ruined. It makes no sense to me, and it's a damn shame.
A drug is a drug.
All drugs have the capacity for abuse. Some moreso than others certainly, but no one would argue against the basic fact that both legal and illegal drugs are abused in America.
No one likes Drug abuse. We can all agree on that! It ruins lives, careers and families. It needs to be addressed. The crux of this conversation should remain focused on HOW we address drug abuse and drug use.
Is stiff, draconian sentencing the solution? Is ruining a person's life by placing them in prison really the best possible thing we can do? For anyone to say that something like what has happened to this fellow (26 years in prision) is acceptable is, in my mind, deplorable! It simply doesnt make any sense!
The answer to drug use/abuse is education. We need to teach people that people use drugs, and that there are consequences to these actions.
Currently, America stigmatizes drugs. "Just say no"....... ok fine, but why!?
Because drugs are bad?
That's just not good enough. Stigmatizing something like this only serves to make it more attractive, especially so to young and often rebellious teen-agers.
I don't think the public have the straight facts about drugs. They should be delivered in a non-biased way (there are no good or bad drugs, only good and bad use of drugs). They should focus on the health effects and explain very carefully the inherent capacity all drugs have for abuse.
No one wants to ruin thier lives with drug abuse and dependancy, of that we can be sure. We can also be sure that some people do. Isn't the toll that this abuse takes on thier life and well being the greatest punishment? Is adding prison time and a criminal record to thier obvious issues solving, or compounding the issue?
This young man's life has been ruined. It makes no sense to me, and it's a damn shame.
Bravo Saltin! That was a very thought out response.
<rant>
I stumbled onto this thread on the "today" page. I managed to make it through about the first hundred posts before I started skimming... I don't seriously believe anyone will read every post in this thread (or even mine) but whatever. 🙂
I'm a drug felon, I'm a pothead, I'm a drity hippie and I'm also an IT Manager that pays taxes, volunteers at a local homeless shelter, is starting his own business. If I had had my charges maxed out consecutively, I'd have gotten 17 years. I ended up luckily with a year of time (boot camp), treatment and 3 years probation, which I successfully completed. I have never resorted to the use of violence, stealing or trickery in connection with drugs, both wile selling and using. I get very sad when I hear about young men and women losing large portions of their life on drug charges. I was given a chance to do something with my life, and I will be eternally grateful for it. I shudder when I think about how SOCIETY loses as each young life is locked away in prison. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the industrialized world, and I'm sure you've already read statistic after statistic linked to this thread about how the majority of prisoners are in for drug related crimes. To those that suggest that locking up a CHILD (I sure as hell was not a mature, self-sufficient adult at 18) actually accomplishes something, I demand to know what. To those that answer "it takes one pusher off the streets," I ask how long before another steps forward to fill his place? The prevalance and availability of illegal drugs is predicted by social science theory ranging from supply and demand economics to social dissidance theory...
How do you judge the effectiveness of a "drug war?" Comparisons to a conventional war ring somewhat hollow, as the more well-defined boundaries presented by the nation state are not available. By all measures, drugs are more available in greater purity now than ever. So has the drug war decreased supply and availability versus 25 years ago? Clearly, this answer is no. Look at china white, crack, oxys... Did kids 20 years ago have the option of getting heroin so pure they could snort it instead of the usual smoking and shooting? Graduating from a suburban Ohio high school in 97, pot was infinitely easier to obtain than alcohol or cigarettes. The regulated distribution channels for alcohol and nicotine were far more effective in limiting supply than the outright ban on marajuana. So supply has not been reduced, what about consumption levels? Alcohol, marajuana and hard drug use have increased too over the past 25 years, with suburban and rural areas fueling most of the increase. So if there are more drugs available in higher purity for cheaper and more kids are doing them sooner, are we winning?
Current US drug policy is rooted in FEAR, and it always has been since laws existed to criminalize chemical use. The first drug laws criminalized opium use by the "yellow man" out of fear. Current US drug laws still have a huge slant where drugs used by poor people are penalized more harshly - the canonical example here is the disparity between power cocaine and crack cocaine. The same number of moles of the same drug (well, plus or minus a HCl group...) will net you drastically different amounts of time. Why?
How do you judge when it is time to try something different? The old saying heard oh-so-often in recovery circles as the chinese definition of insanity comes to mind... "insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result." Does this apply here to US drug policy? Has there already been enough suffering without progress? How can these things be judged? Repeated, reproduceable scientific studies have shown that treatment is many times more effective than incarceration at preventing criminal recidivism.
I've been down the road of addiction and managed to return. I've had friends die, I've had friends lose their grip on their sanity, I've had friends lose their will to live to a drug. It's not pretty, its not happy, its not right. Something certainly has to be done about it. Demand reduction maybe? How much time is spent trying to figure out why the US consumes more drugs than the rest of the world combined? The pragmatist in me begs for a political/governmental entity to simply accept the existence of drugs and work to make a world where they do not cause havok, as is the current case. Locking up drug users and stigmatizing them with criminal records does nothing to benefit society as a whole.
I'm sure than much of what I say will be dismissed as the words of some dumb stoner by many here. I don't really have anything to say to someone who won't listen. :-/ Take what you can and leave the rest behind...
</rant>
<rant>
I stumbled onto this thread on the "today" page. I managed to make it through about the first hundred posts before I started skimming... I don't seriously believe anyone will read every post in this thread (or even mine) but whatever. 🙂
I'm a drug felon, I'm a pothead, I'm a drity hippie and I'm also an IT Manager that pays taxes, volunteers at a local homeless shelter, is starting his own business. If I had had my charges maxed out consecutively, I'd have gotten 17 years. I ended up luckily with a year of time (boot camp), treatment and 3 years probation, which I successfully completed. I have never resorted to the use of violence, stealing or trickery in connection with drugs, both wile selling and using. I get very sad when I hear about young men and women losing large portions of their life on drug charges. I was given a chance to do something with my life, and I will be eternally grateful for it. I shudder when I think about how SOCIETY loses as each young life is locked away in prison. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the industrialized world, and I'm sure you've already read statistic after statistic linked to this thread about how the majority of prisoners are in for drug related crimes. To those that suggest that locking up a CHILD (I sure as hell was not a mature, self-sufficient adult at 18) actually accomplishes something, I demand to know what. To those that answer "it takes one pusher off the streets," I ask how long before another steps forward to fill his place? The prevalance and availability of illegal drugs is predicted by social science theory ranging from supply and demand economics to social dissidance theory...
How do you judge the effectiveness of a "drug war?" Comparisons to a conventional war ring somewhat hollow, as the more well-defined boundaries presented by the nation state are not available. By all measures, drugs are more available in greater purity now than ever. So has the drug war decreased supply and availability versus 25 years ago? Clearly, this answer is no. Look at china white, crack, oxys... Did kids 20 years ago have the option of getting heroin so pure they could snort it instead of the usual smoking and shooting? Graduating from a suburban Ohio high school in 97, pot was infinitely easier to obtain than alcohol or cigarettes. The regulated distribution channels for alcohol and nicotine were far more effective in limiting supply than the outright ban on marajuana. So supply has not been reduced, what about consumption levels? Alcohol, marajuana and hard drug use have increased too over the past 25 years, with suburban and rural areas fueling most of the increase. So if there are more drugs available in higher purity for cheaper and more kids are doing them sooner, are we winning?
Current US drug policy is rooted in FEAR, and it always has been since laws existed to criminalize chemical use. The first drug laws criminalized opium use by the "yellow man" out of fear. Current US drug laws still have a huge slant where drugs used by poor people are penalized more harshly - the canonical example here is the disparity between power cocaine and crack cocaine. The same number of moles of the same drug (well, plus or minus a HCl group...) will net you drastically different amounts of time. Why?
How do you judge when it is time to try something different? The old saying heard oh-so-often in recovery circles as the chinese definition of insanity comes to mind... "insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result." Does this apply here to US drug policy? Has there already been enough suffering without progress? How can these things be judged? Repeated, reproduceable scientific studies have shown that treatment is many times more effective than incarceration at preventing criminal recidivism.
I've been down the road of addiction and managed to return. I've had friends die, I've had friends lose their grip on their sanity, I've had friends lose their will to live to a drug. It's not pretty, its not happy, its not right. Something certainly has to be done about it. Demand reduction maybe? How much time is spent trying to figure out why the US consumes more drugs than the rest of the world combined? The pragmatist in me begs for a political/governmental entity to simply accept the existence of drugs and work to make a world where they do not cause havok, as is the current case. Locking up drug users and stigmatizing them with criminal records does nothing to benefit society as a whole.
I'm sure than much of what I say will be dismissed as the words of some dumb stoner by many here. I don't really have anything to say to someone who won't listen. :-/ Take what you can and leave the rest behind...
</rant>
<<How much time is spent trying to figure out why the US consumes more drugs than the rest of the world combined?>>
This is easily solved. Americans are greedy, self abusive, self absorbed pigs. We're also the fattest country in the word. We literally and figurativly Pig out on anything and everything we can get our hands on. One time isn't enough. We've been brought up in a society that shows us "bigger/more is better". Look at SUV's, look at the .COM boom, look at what athletes get paid. There are tons of examples.
People naturally have a self destructive nature. Not everyone, but most people push things to a limit.
Basically in my eyes, that is the sole reason why Drugs should continue being illegal. If anyone could just walk into a store and purchase a joint, dont you really think we would have a breakout of usage/addicts? I mean i see no problem with someone who wants to puff up for recreational purposes. But the reason why it's good that it's not readily available and expensive is what keeps a good number of people from openly using it and abusing it.
As you said, liquor has some of the same attributes and problems, but since in the "publics" eyes it is ok, it'll never change. So fighting about it will do nothing.
This is easily solved. Americans are greedy, self abusive, self absorbed pigs. We're also the fattest country in the word. We literally and figurativly Pig out on anything and everything we can get our hands on. One time isn't enough. We've been brought up in a society that shows us "bigger/more is better". Look at SUV's, look at the .COM boom, look at what athletes get paid. There are tons of examples.
People naturally have a self destructive nature. Not everyone, but most people push things to a limit.
Basically in my eyes, that is the sole reason why Drugs should continue being illegal. If anyone could just walk into a store and purchase a joint, dont you really think we would have a breakout of usage/addicts? I mean i see no problem with someone who wants to puff up for recreational purposes. But the reason why it's good that it's not readily available and expensive is what keeps a good number of people from openly using it and abusing it.
As you said, liquor has some of the same attributes and problems, but since in the "publics" eyes it is ok, it'll never change. So fighting about it will do nothing.
GoHAnSoN, I hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying.
If you really meant to propose life imprisonment for those under 18 and execution for those over 18 as penalties for drug use, I am very, very, afraid.
As a pacifist, I do not believe that killing people is an acceptable solution to problems. As a human being, I believe that life incarceration is inhumane.
Realize that if you had your way, 1/3 of the kids you went to high school with would be serving life sentences. The illegal/taboo nature of drugs currently has not served as a sufficient deterrent, even in Southeast Asia where penalties are often much more like what you would like to see. In fact, a significant portion of the world's heroin comes from SE Asian countries with draconian penalties for drug use and trafficing. Has it stopped?
If you really meant to propose life imprisonment for those under 18 and execution for those over 18 as penalties for drug use, I am very, very, afraid.
As a pacifist, I do not believe that killing people is an acceptable solution to problems. As a human being, I believe that life incarceration is inhumane.
Realize that if you had your way, 1/3 of the kids you went to high school with would be serving life sentences. The illegal/taboo nature of drugs currently has not served as a sufficient deterrent, even in Southeast Asia where penalties are often much more like what you would like to see. In fact, a significant portion of the world's heroin comes from SE Asian countries with draconian penalties for drug use and trafficing. Has it stopped?
Red Dawn
Elite Member
Besides it being cruel and inhuman punishment (and a really ignorant thing to say), how would we go about financing the building and administration of the 1000's of new prisons we would need to incarcerate our fellow Americans due to such Draconians laws?
Actually you don't have to answer that because I'm sure you haven't given it any thought just like you didn't give your statement any thought before you posted it.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
The article said that was a plea bargain, WTF amount of time was he facing that was reduced to 26 years?
Yes, a crime, clearly punishment not fitting the crime again. Draconian is too kind a word, I'm surprised they didn't take an Ax and cut off his hands, I'm sure that is next in this Country.
Edit: OK, now I see he was facing 40 years. 39 Years too much if you ask me. Oh and I bet the prosecution tried it when they were his age and didn't inhale either
Yes, a crime, clearly punishment not fitting the crime again. Draconian is too kind a word, I'm surprised they didn't take an Ax and cut off his hands, I'm sure that is next in this Country.
Edit: OK, now I see he was facing 40 years. 39 Years too much if you ask me. Oh and I bet the prosecution tried it when they were his age and didn't inhale either
Twenty five years for murder is even up there for Canada. With pot, at least in BC, they take it and send you on your way. They're a bit stricker in Ontario, you might actually go to court and get fined. But at the moment, courts are throwing pot cases out because the Supreme Court ruled that Canadians marijuana laws violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Mean MrMustard
Diamond Member
I want a mandatory prison sentence of 3 years next time you go over the speed limit.
Well said, Saltin as well. The US is only screwing itself over more and more with it's 'War on Drugs' and the propaganda associated with it, (supporting terrorism by buying pot?????) The issue at hand needs to be examined and addressed carefully. At the moment, it would seem the goverment is happy to send people to jail for a quarter century instead of helping to rehabilitate them. Which of course would be cheaper than putting them in jail for 20+ years. It's getting ridiculous when public education could go a long way. I'm not talking about what the goverment calls drug education either. A pack of lies is no substitute for the truth. As 'defender' of the free world, why can't the goverment allow it's people to enjoy the freedoms you all work so hard to protect?
What has this country turned into 🙁
18 year old kid 🙁
He did break the law and deserves to be punished, but locking him up for life (Yes to an 18 year old 26 years is life)
Think about it. If it stands, he will not be able to get out until he is 40ish. Soooo what they are saying is, when he gets out in 26 yars he will be rehabilitated? Then what? he will not have a clue what to do on the outside after spending that long in prison....
I am one who thinks the Laws concerning Marijuana needs to be dealt with. They are going way overboard, just so the politicians can look good duringelection times.
Of course I also believe Florida's convicted Felon laws are unconstitutional as well, but that's another story
18 year old kid 🙁
He did break the law and deserves to be punished, but locking him up for life (Yes to an 18 year old 26 years is life)
Think about it. If it stands, he will not be able to get out until he is 40ish. Soooo what they are saying is, when he gets out in 26 yars he will be rehabilitated? Then what? he will not have a clue what to do on the outside after spending that long in prison....
I am one who thinks the Laws concerning Marijuana needs to be dealt with. They are going way overboard, just so the politicians can look good duringelection times.
Of course I also believe Florida's convicted Felon laws are unconstitutional as well, but that's another story
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