First real cut, suggestions?

[MrMatt]

OK, so thanks to the great advice I got here, I have been doing a bulk for the past 3.5 months now and have gained 25 lbs. (181 to 206 approximately). Here's what my diet's looked like:

Workout Day (4 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
PostWorkout: 1.75 cups meat tortelini, followed quickly by meal 4.
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk, 4 Tbsp PB.
4425 calories, 37% fat (185g), 28% carbohydrates (332g), 34% protein (360g)

NON Workout Day (3 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk
3546 calories, 30% fat (120g), 33% carbohydrates (316g), 35% protein (299g)


So I'd like to cut back by say 500 calories/day on both days, and reduce carbs, but I'm having trouble. Some ideas I had:

1) Replace the pasta post-workout with Surge or something?
2) Eliminate the milk from the diet? (I'd lose 33g/protein though..)
3) Change the 4 oz./chicken breast on Meals 2 & 3 to 8oz/meal.
4) Get rid of the pB&J and tuna sandwiches and replace it with 4 oz. of tuna. at each meal.
5) Add in a couple 30 minute sessions of incline walking per week

any other ideas?




update to OP (Before I read the responses): I'm doing a heavy/light upper/lower split. So 4x per week. I currently weigh in at 213 (thought weights at the gym were going up easier than at 206 lol).

 

[darkxshade]

Might get better responses if you provide your planned workout regiment during your cutting phase. Cutting 500 calories from your current meals doesn't mean much if we don't know how active you are and going to be.

Instead of adding a couple of 30 min walks, add a couple 30 min HIIT sessions.

 

[mchammer187]

3500 cals seems high for a cut for me even at 206

My weight varies from 179-186 (~16% BF) and I am gaining weight at 3300


you can replace a PBJ + chicken breast with 2/3 cup cottage cheese + 2 TBSP PB and keep the banana its actually pretty tasty to me anyway

maybe replace the tortellini with a protein shake since you are following your workouts with meal 4


I wouldn't cut the milk out but you can switch to 1% milk and shave off some calories there as well and replace the OJ in the morning with a piece of fruit or water

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: MrMatt
OK, so thanks to the great advice I got here, I have been doing a bulk for the past 3.5 months now and have gained 25 lbs. (181 to 206 approximately). Here's what my diet's looked like:

Workout Day (4 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
PostWorkout: 1.75 cups meat tortelini, followed quickly by meal 4.
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk, 4 Tbsp PB.
4425 calories, 37% fat (185g), 28% carbohydrates (332g), 34% protein (360g)

NON Workout Day (3 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk
3546 calories, 30% fat (120g), 33% carbohydrates (316g), 35% protein (299g)


So I'd like to cut back by say 500 calories/day on both days, and reduce carbs, but I'm having trouble. Some ideas I had:

1) Replace the pasta post-workout with Surge or something?
2) Eliminate the milk from the diet? (I'd lose 33g/protein though..)
3) Change the 4 oz./chicken breast on Meals 2 & 3 to 8oz/meal.
4) Get rid of the pB&J and tuna sandwiches and replace it with 4 oz. of tuna. at each meal.
5) Add in a couple 30 minute sessions of incline walking per week

any other ideas?

I don't think you necessarily need to cut out carbs, and 300g+ of protein for someone who weighs 206lbs is crazy high, but here are some things that helped me cut last year:

* List of low calorie, high protein foods: really useful if you are struggling to get enough protein (which you are not!) but still trying to stay within some caloric limit

* Eat more veggies. Other than the spinach, I don't see any in your diet, which is a problem. They are extremely healthy for you and contain very few calories - you can totally gorge yourself on broccoli, lettuce, etc, feel full, but barely add any calories to your daily total.

* Cut out the OJ, tortellini, and oatmeal, especially if they are not 100% natural. If you did need to cut out carbs, these processed foods would be the place to start. Also, check the ingredients on the bread you use: if the list is very long or contains a bunch of items you don't recognize, find a less processed variety. Replace all of these with fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc.

* For breakfast, I find that cottage cheese (Friendship "whipped" style) mixed with crunchy peanut butter (Teddie all natural) and fruit is MUCH more filling than oatmeal/cereal and has way more good proteins and fats. As a post workout meal, high GI fruits and veggies (such as bananas, sweet potatoes and carrots) combined with some nice lean protein (chicken, salmon, turkey) are an excellent choice.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: MrMatt
OK, so thanks to the great advice I got here, I have been doing a bulk for the past 3.5 months now and have gained 25 lbs. (181 to 206 approximately). Here's what my diet's looked like:

Workout Day (4 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
PostWorkout: 1.75 cups meat tortelini, followed quickly by meal 4.
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk, 4 Tbsp PB.
4425 calories, 37% fat (185g), 28% carbohydrates (332g), 34% protein (360g)

NON Workout Day (3 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk
3546 calories, 30% fat (120g), 33% carbohydrates (316g), 35% protein (299g)


So I'd like to cut back by say 500 calories/day on both days, and reduce carbs, but I'm having trouble. Some ideas I had:

1) Replace the pasta post-workout with Surge or something?
2) Eliminate the milk from the diet? (I'd lose 33g/protein though..)
3) Change the 4 oz./chicken breast on Meals 2 & 3 to 8oz/meal.
4) Get rid of the pB&J and tuna sandwiches and replace it with 4 oz. of tuna. at each meal.
5) Add in a couple 30 minute sessions of incline walking per week

any other ideas?

I don't think you necessarily need to cut out carbs, and 300g+ of protein for someone who weighs 206lbs is crazy high, but here are some things that helped me cut last year:

* List of low calorie, high protein foods: really useful if you are struggling to get enough protein (which you are not!) but still trying to stay within some caloric limit

* Eat more veggies. Other than the spinach, I don't see any in your diet, which is a problem. They are extremely healthy for you and contain very few calories - you can totally gorge yourself on broccoli, lettuce, etc, feel full, but barely add any calories to your daily total.

* Cut out the OJ, tortellini, and oatmeal, especially if they are not 100% natural. If you did need to cut out carbs, these processed foods would be the place to start. Also, check the ingredients on the bread you use: if the list is very long or contains a bunch of items you don't recognize, find a less processed variety. Replace all of these with fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc.

* For breakfast, I find that cottage cheese (Friendship "whipped" style) mixed with crunchy peanut butter (Teddie all natural) and fruit is MUCH more filling than oatmeal/cereal and has way more good proteins and fats. As a post workout meal, high GI fruits and veggies (such as bananas, sweet potatoes and carrots) combined with some nice lean protein (chicken, salmon, turkey) are an excellent choice.

I wouldn't say that 300g for someone who weighs 206 lbs is "crazy high" - I've seen more than one article use 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a good guideline.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: MrMatt
OK, so thanks to the great advice I got here, I have been doing a bulk for the past 3.5 months now and have gained 25 lbs. (181 to 206 approximately). Here's what my diet's looked like:

Workout Day (4 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
PostWorkout: 1.75 cups meat tortelini, followed quickly by meal 4.
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk, 4 Tbsp PB.
4425 calories, 37% fat (185g), 28% carbohydrates (332g), 34% protein (360g)

NON Workout Day (3 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk
3546 calories, 30% fat (120g), 33% carbohydrates (316g), 35% protein (299g)


So I'd like to cut back by say 500 calories/day on both days, and reduce carbs, but I'm having trouble. Some ideas I had:

1) Replace the pasta post-workout with Surge or something?
2) Eliminate the milk from the diet? (I'd lose 33g/protein though..)
3) Change the 4 oz./chicken breast on Meals 2 & 3 to 8oz/meal.
4) Get rid of the pB&J and tuna sandwiches and replace it with 4 oz. of tuna. at each meal.
5) Add in a couple 30 minute sessions of incline walking per week

any other ideas?

I don't think you necessarily need to cut out carbs, and 300g+ of protein for someone who weighs 206lbs is crazy high, but here are some things that helped me cut last year:

* List of low calorie, high protein foods: really useful if you are struggling to get enough protein (which you are not!) but still trying to stay within some caloric limit

* Eat more veggies. Other than the spinach, I don't see any in your diet, which is a problem. They are extremely healthy for you and contain very few calories - you can totally gorge yourself on broccoli, lettuce, etc, feel full, but barely add any calories to your daily total.

* Cut out the OJ, tortellini, and oatmeal, especially if they are not 100% natural. If you did need to cut out carbs, these processed foods would be the place to start. Also, check the ingredients on the bread you use: if the list is very long or contains a bunch of items you don't recognize, find a less processed variety. Replace all of these with fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc.

* For breakfast, I find that cottage cheese (Friendship "whipped" style) mixed with crunchy peanut butter (Teddie all natural) and fruit is MUCH more filling than oatmeal/cereal and has way more good proteins and fats. As a post workout meal, high GI fruits and veggies (such as bananas, sweet potatoes and carrots) combined with some nice lean protein (chicken, salmon, turkey) are an excellent choice.

I wouldn't say that 300g for someone who weighs 206 lbs is "crazy high" - I've seen more than one article use 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a good guideline.

Yes, an article. Not a research document. There are no noted benefits in research with weightlifters over around 1-1.5 per pound of lean muscle mass, which is a clearly a much lower number.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: MrMatt
OK, so thanks to the great advice I got here, I have been doing a bulk for the past 3.5 months now and have gained 25 lbs. (181 to 206 approximately). Here's what my diet's looked like:

Workout Day (4 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
PostWorkout: 1.75 cups meat tortelini, followed quickly by meal 4.
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk, 4 Tbsp PB.
4425 calories, 37% fat (185g), 28% carbohydrates (332g), 34% protein (360g)

NON Workout Day (3 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk
3546 calories, 30% fat (120g), 33% carbohydrates (316g), 35% protein (299g)


So I'd like to cut back by say 500 calories/day on both days, and reduce carbs, but I'm having trouble. Some ideas I had:

1) Replace the pasta post-workout with Surge or something?
2) Eliminate the milk from the diet? (I'd lose 33g/protein though..)
3) Change the 4 oz./chicken breast on Meals 2 & 3 to 8oz/meal.
4) Get rid of the pB&J and tuna sandwiches and replace it with 4 oz. of tuna. at each meal.
5) Add in a couple 30 minute sessions of incline walking per week

any other ideas?

I don't think you necessarily need to cut out carbs, and 300g+ of protein for someone who weighs 206lbs is crazy high, but here are some things that helped me cut last year:

* List of low calorie, high protein foods: really useful if you are struggling to get enough protein (which you are not!) but still trying to stay within some caloric limit

* Eat more veggies. Other than the spinach, I don't see any in your diet, which is a problem. They are extremely healthy for you and contain very few calories - you can totally gorge yourself on broccoli, lettuce, etc, feel full, but barely add any calories to your daily total.

* Cut out the OJ, tortellini, and oatmeal, especially if they are not 100% natural. If you did need to cut out carbs, these processed foods would be the place to start. Also, check the ingredients on the bread you use: if the list is very long or contains a bunch of items you don't recognize, find a less processed variety. Replace all of these with fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc.

* For breakfast, I find that cottage cheese (Friendship "whipped" style) mixed with crunchy peanut butter (Teddie all natural) and fruit is MUCH more filling than oatmeal/cereal and has way more good proteins and fats. As a post workout meal, high GI fruits and veggies (such as bananas, sweet potatoes and carrots) combined with some nice lean protein (chicken, salmon, turkey) are an excellent choice.

I wouldn't say that 300g for someone who weighs 206 lbs is "crazy high" - I've seen more than one article use 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a good guideline.

Yes, an article. Not a research document. There are no noted benefits in research with weightlifters over around 1-1.5 per pound of lean muscle mass, which is a clearly a much lower number.

Yea, I'd be curious to see what articles you saw that in - are you sure it wasn't 1.5g/kg? As discussed in this article, most research shows that 1.4 - 2.0g per kg per day is about as much as you'd need.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: MrMatt
OK, so thanks to the great advice I got here, I have been doing a bulk for the past 3.5 months now and have gained 25 lbs. (181 to 206 approximately). Here's what my diet's looked like:

Workout Day (4 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 tuna sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
PostWorkout: 1.75 cups meat tortelini, followed quickly by meal 4.
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk, 4 Tbsp PB.
4425 calories, 37% fat (185g), 28% carbohydrates (332g), 34% protein (360g)

NON Workout Day (3 days/week)
Meal 1: 1.5 servings oatmeal, 8 oz. oj, 8 oz. 2% milk
Meal 2: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, banana
Meal 3: 1 PBJ sandwich (whole wheat), 4 oz. broiled chicken breast, apple
Meal 4: 12 oz. top-round steak, 1 cup spinach
Meal 5: 24 oz. 2% milk
3546 calories, 30% fat (120g), 33% carbohydrates (316g), 35% protein (299g)


So I'd like to cut back by say 500 calories/day on both days, and reduce carbs, but I'm having trouble. Some ideas I had:

1) Replace the pasta post-workout with Surge or something?
2) Eliminate the milk from the diet? (I'd lose 33g/protein though..)
3) Change the 4 oz./chicken breast on Meals 2 & 3 to 8oz/meal.
4) Get rid of the pB&J and tuna sandwiches and replace it with 4 oz. of tuna. at each meal.
5) Add in a couple 30 minute sessions of incline walking per week

any other ideas?

I don't think you necessarily need to cut out carbs, and 300g+ of protein for someone who weighs 206lbs is crazy high, but here are some things that helped me cut last year:

* List of low calorie, high protein foods: really useful if you are struggling to get enough protein (which you are not!) but still trying to stay within some caloric limit

* Eat more veggies. Other than the spinach, I don't see any in your diet, which is a problem. They are extremely healthy for you and contain very few calories - you can totally gorge yourself on broccoli, lettuce, etc, feel full, but barely add any calories to your daily total.

* Cut out the OJ, tortellini, and oatmeal, especially if they are not 100% natural. If you did need to cut out carbs, these processed foods would be the place to start. Also, check the ingredients on the bread you use: if the list is very long or contains a bunch of items you don't recognize, find a less processed variety. Replace all of these with fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc.

* For breakfast, I find that cottage cheese (Friendship "whipped" style) mixed with crunchy peanut butter (Teddie all natural) and fruit is MUCH more filling than oatmeal/cereal and has way more good proteins and fats. As a post workout meal, high GI fruits and veggies (such as bananas, sweet potatoes and carrots) combined with some nice lean protein (chicken, salmon, turkey) are an excellent choice.

I wouldn't say that 300g for someone who weighs 206 lbs is "crazy high" - I've seen more than one article use 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a good guideline.

Yes, an article. Not a research document. There are no noted benefits in research with weightlifters over around 1-1.5 per pound of lean muscle mass, which is a clearly a much lower number.

Yea, I'd be curious to see what articles you saw that in - are you sure it wasn't 1.5g/kg? As discussed in this article, most research shows that 1.4 - 2.0g per kg per day is about as much as you'd need.

Here's the particular aritcle I was thinking of:

The Carb Cycling Codex

It's a carb-cycling diet outlined in T-Nation. You are correct that they don't cite their source for using 1.5g of protein per pound bodyweight, but I always figured it was better to be on the safe side, plus high protein foods tend to be more filling than carbs anyway.

I also thought I saw Lyle McDonald use the 1.5g/lb bw figure in one of his articles, but I'm not positive on that.

The only benefit I can see to having a lower protein intake is a lower food budget each month, as protein is by far more expensive than quality carbs or fats.

I currently use the 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a guideline, although I end up going over by a bit because of the protein found in foods that aren't considered protein sources. I might be able to get by with less, but as I said earlier, I would just be replacing those calories with calories from carb sources, which tend to not be as filling as protein.

I know how many total calories I need to eat through fitday tracking, and they have to come from somewhere, right?

What do you and SociallyChallenged use for your protein targets each day? What is the overall breakdown of your calories in terms of protein, carbs, and fat?

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Special K
Here's the particular aritcle I was thinking of:

The Carb Cycling Codex

It's a carb-cycling diet outlined in T-Nation. You are correct that they don't cite their source for using 1.5g of protein per pound bodyweight, but I always figured it was better to be on the safe side, plus high protein foods tend to be more filling than carbs anyway.

I also thought I saw Lyle McDonald use the 1.5g/lb bw figure in one of his articles, but I'm not positive on that.

The only benefit I can see to having a lower protein intake is a lower food budget each month, as protein is by far more expensive than quality carbs or fats.

I currently use the 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a guideline, although I end up going over by a bit because of the protein found in foods that aren't considered protein sources. I might be able to get by with less, but as I said earlier, I would just be replacing those calories with calories from carb sources, which tend to not be as filling as protein.

I know how many total calories I need to eat through fitday tracking, and they have to come from somewhere, right?

T-Nation (did they rename themselves T-muscle?) sometimes has great articles and sometimes has absolute crap. I didn't read carefully through this whole article, but given the amount of math and calculations being thrown around, the total lack of references is pretty unfortunate.

At any rate, for normal, healthy individuals, high protein intakes aren't likely to be dangerous. There are some indications that too much protein may negatively impact the kidneys and bone density, but the same article I mentioned earlier says that these conclusions aren't strongly backed by research. However, I think the bigger issue with focusing your diet too much on protein is that it usually means something else is being excluded: in MrMatt's case, we see that he eats almost no veggies and relatively little fruit. Although the science world doesn't agree on much when it comes to diet & nutrition, the recommendation to eat more fruits & veggies is almost universal. Therefore, I'd say that he would lose nothing by eating less protein (other than the extra calories) and would gain a lot by eating more plants (vitamins, fiber, etc).

As for protien or carbs being more filling, it's a pretty complicated question. "Satiety" is probably more closely associated with particular foods than the macronutrients in them. You can check out the satiety index to see what I mean. For example, oranges and apples (almost pure carbs) were rated more filling than beef (almost pure protein). Potatoes, which are also mostly carbs, were rated VERY high in the satiety index. If there is a trend, it's that more processed foods tend to be the least filling and the majority of processed foods we eat are primarily carbs. In that respect, I agree with you: processed carbs are certainly to be avoided. However, carbs in and of themselves are by no means evil and should be as much a part of your diet as the proteins and fats.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Special K
Here's the particular aritcle I was thinking of:

The Carb Cycling Codex

It's a carb-cycling diet outlined in T-Nation. You are correct that they don't cite their source for using 1.5g of protein per pound bodyweight, but I always figured it was better to be on the safe side, plus high protein foods tend to be more filling than carbs anyway.

I also thought I saw Lyle McDonald use the 1.5g/lb bw figure in one of his articles, but I'm not positive on that.

The only benefit I can see to having a lower protein intake is a lower food budget each month, as protein is by far more expensive than quality carbs or fats.

I currently use the 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a guideline, although I end up going over by a bit because of the protein found in foods that aren't considered protein sources. I might be able to get by with less, but as I said earlier, I would just be replacing those calories with calories from carb sources, which tend to not be as filling as protein.

I know how many total calories I need to eat through fitday tracking, and they have to come from somewhere, right?

T-Nation (did they rename themselves T-muscle?) sometimes has great articles and sometimes has absolute crap. I didn't read carefully through this whole article, but given the amount of math and calculations being thrown around, the total lack of references is pretty unfortunate.

At any rate, for normal, healthy individuals, high protein intakes aren't likely to be dangerous. There are some indications that too much protein may negatively impact the kidneys and bone density, but the same article I mentioned earlier says that these conclusions aren't strongly backed by research. However, I think the bigger issue with focusing your diet too much on protein is that it usually means something else is being excluded: in MrMatt's case, we see that he eats almost no veggies and relatively little fruit. Although the science world doesn't agree on much when it comes to diet & nutrition, the recommendation to eat more fruits & veggies is almost universal. Therefore, I'd say that he would lose nothing by eating less protein (other than the extra calories) and would gain a lot by eating more plants (vitamins, fiber, etc).

As for protien or carbs being more filling, it's a pretty complicated question. "Satiety" is probably more closely associated with particular foods than the macronutrients in them. You can check out the satiety index to see what I mean. For example, oranges and apples (almost pure carbs) were rated more filling than beef (almost pure protein). Potatoes, which are also mostly carbs, were rated VERY high in the satiety index. If there is a trend, it's that more processed foods tend to be the least filling and the majority of processed foods we eat are primarily carbs. In that respect, I agree with you: processed carbs are certainly to be avoided. However, carbs in and of themselves are by no means evil and should be as much a part of your diet as the proteins and fats.

The bold part is what I was saying. The worst that could happen with having an high intake of protein is, if you don't break up up into smaller meals, you run the risk of getting kidney stones. If you go too low, you don't recover well and lose muscle. What I'm mentioning is that 300g of protein for 200lb is over the level which would be fine. He could probably get 200g of protein and save some money, drop some calories, maintain muscle mass, and recover just as well.

I weigh about 160 pounds and I get anywhere from 120-180g of protein a day. I usually aim for about 150ish which is great for me. I would maintain that same amount while cutting because it's an amount that is affordable, useful, and more would just be unnecessary.

 

[Pantlegz]

I'm no where as knoweldgeable as SC or Brikis but I stick to about 1g/lb but I have read that professional lifters/body builders go upto 1.5g/lb but it apparently is a controverisal topic. Some say you don't get any benefit at over 1g/lb but others say it tops out at 1.5g/lb but I do good at 1g/lb but thus far I've just been cutting.

 

[MrMatt]

update to OP (Before I read the responses): I'm doing a heavy/light upper/lower split. So 4x per week. I currently weigh in at 213 (thought weights at the gym were going up easier than at 206 lol).

 

[MrMatt]

Originally posted by: brikis98
I don't think you necessarily need to cut out carbs, and 300g+ of protein for someone who weighs 206lbs is crazy high, but here are some things that helped me cut last year:

* List of low calorie, high protein foods: really useful if you are struggling to get enough protein (which you are not!) but still trying to stay within some caloric limit

* Eat more veggies. Other than the spinach, I don't see any in your diet, which is a problem. They are extremely healthy for you and contain very few calories - you can totally gorge yourself on broccoli, lettuce, etc, feel full, but barely add any calories to your daily total.

I think I am going to eat more vegetables...thinking of bringing baby carrots to work with me, and maybe instead of just spinach doing a steamed mixed vegetable each night. good advice!

* Cut out the OJ, tortellini, and oatmeal, especially if they are not 100% natural. If you did need to cut out carbs, these processed foods would be the place to start. Also, check the ingredients on the bread you use: if the list is very long or contains a bunch of items you don't recognize, find a less processed variety. Replace all of these with fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, etc.

They are 100% natural though, I only eat quaker steel cut oats, plain non-concentrate OJ, and the tortelini...I'm not sure about, but it's not liek chef boyardi or whatever, it's made by a local company. Have you ever tried ezekiel bread? I'm considering it, but not sure if it's a fad or not. It's expensive as fuck.

* For breakfast, I find that cottage cheese (Friendship "whipped" style) mixed with crunchy peanut butter (Teddie all natural) and fruit is MUCH more filling than oatmeal/cereal and has way more good proteins and fats. As a post workout meal, high GI fruits and veggies (such as bananas, sweet potatoes and carrots) combined with some nice lean protein (chicken, salmon, turkey) are an excellent choice.

[/quote]
YUM. I love Friendship cottage cheese.


Thank you for the advice!

 

[MrMatt]

Originally posted by: mchammer187
3500 cals seems high for a cut for me even at 206

My weight varies from 179-186 (~16% BF) and I am gaining weight at 3300

you can replace a PBJ + chicken breast with 2/3 cup cottage cheese + 2 TBSP PB and keep the banana its actually pretty tasty to me anyway

maybe replace the tortellini with a protein shake since you are following your workouts with meal 4

I wouldn't cut the milk out but you can switch to 1% milk and shave off some calories there as well and replace the OJ in the morning with a piece of fruit or water

Another vote for cottage cheese


3500 cals isn't that high for a cut at all, for me. I was taking in 3200 before this and was BARELY at 180. My workouts are violent and intense. I need to get over 4200 on workout days before i start gaining any weight.

I'm also trying to do this cheaply as well. I'm spending like 55.00/week on food which is WAY too high, I used to spend like 40/week.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: MrMatt
They are 100% natural though, I only eat quaker steel cut oats, plain non-concentrate OJ, and the tortelini...I'm not sure about, but it's not liek chef boyardi or whatever, it's made by a local company.

Ah, in that case, don't worry about it.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
Have you ever tried ezekiel bread? I'm considering it, but not sure if it's a fad or not. It's expensive as fuck.

No, never heard of it. From a quick google search, it looks like a gimmick. Just stick with bread that has minimal ingredients and whole grains, and you'll be fine.

Originally posted by: MrMatt
Thank you for the advice!

No problem. Keep us updated on how the cut goes.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Special K
Here's the particular aritcle I was thinking of:

The Carb Cycling Codex

It's a carb-cycling diet outlined in T-Nation. You are correct that they don't cite their source for using 1.5g of protein per pound bodyweight, but I always figured it was better to be on the safe side, plus high protein foods tend to be more filling than carbs anyway.

I also thought I saw Lyle McDonald use the 1.5g/lb bw figure in one of his articles, but I'm not positive on that.

The only benefit I can see to having a lower protein intake is a lower food budget each month, as protein is by far more expensive than quality carbs or fats.

I currently use the 1.5g/lb bodyweight as a guideline, although I end up going over by a bit because of the protein found in foods that aren't considered protein sources. I might be able to get by with less, but as I said earlier, I would just be replacing those calories with calories from carb sources, which tend to not be as filling as protein.

I know how many total calories I need to eat through fitday tracking, and they have to come from somewhere, right?

T-Nation (did they rename themselves T-muscle?) sometimes has great articles and sometimes has absolute crap. I didn't read carefully through this whole article, but given the amount of math and calculations being thrown around, the total lack of references is pretty unfortunate.

At any rate, for normal, healthy individuals, high protein intakes aren't likely to be dangerous. There are some indications that too much protein may negatively impact the kidneys and bone density, but the same article I mentioned earlier says that these conclusions aren't strongly backed by research. However, I think the bigger issue with focusing your diet too much on protein is that it usually means something else is being excluded: in MrMatt's case, we see that he eats almost no veggies and relatively little fruit. Although the science world doesn't agree on much when it comes to diet & nutrition, the recommendation to eat more fruits & veggies is almost universal. Therefore, I'd say that he would lose nothing by eating less protein (other than the extra calories) and would gain a lot by eating more plants (vitamins, fiber, etc).

As for protien or carbs being more filling, it's a pretty complicated question. "Satiety" is probably more closely associated with particular foods than the macronutrients in them. You can check out the satiety index to see what I mean. For example, oranges and apples (almost pure carbs) were rated more filling than beef (almost pure protein). Potatoes, which are also mostly carbs, were rated VERY high in the satiety index. If there is a trend, it's that more processed foods tend to be the least filling and the majority of processed foods we eat are primarily carbs. In that respect, I agree with you: processed carbs are certainly to be avoided. However, carbs in and of themselves are by no means evil and should be as much a part of your diet as the proteins and fats.

The satiety index you posted is interesting. I would have never guessed that some of the foods on there would be as satisfying as they are listed in the table. I'll have to try some of them sometime and see if I agree.

I agree that processed carbs are not likely to be filling and also that carbs are just as important to a diet as proteins and fats. Having said that, what does a typical day's diet for you look like? I'm just trying to see if I could make any improvements to mine regarding general nutrition. I eliminated processed foods from my diet years ago, but your comment about fruits and vegetables makes me wonder if I could make any further improvements to my choice of foods.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Special K
The satiety index you posted is interesting. I would have never guessed that some of the foods on there would be as satisfying as they are listed in the table. I'll have to try some of them sometime and see if I agree.

I think the main point it brings up is not that "you should eat food X because it scores 300%", but that satiety is much more complicated than just carbs vs. fats vs. protein. It looks like fiber, fat content, volume, viscosity and numerous other factors could also be involved.

Originally posted by: Special K
Having said that, what does a typical day's diet for you look like?

I outlined my diet principles in my diet experiment thread. The gist is to avoid processed foods as much as possible, eat whole foods as much as I can (especially more plants), and try to do very rough Zone proportions - ie, include some fat, protein and carbs in each meal. A typical day for me might look like this:

Breakfast: cottage cheese w/ peanut butter and berries, orange, glass of whole milk
Lunch: salad with nuts or cheese, smoked salmon on whole wheat bread
Pre-workout: Apple with almond butter, carrots, glass of whole milk
Post-workout: whey protein with whole milk, 2 bananas
Dinner: roasted veggies, pork chops with apple sauce

The best thing I can recommend about increasing your fruit/veggie intake is that it's actually very fun to experiment, especially with a friend or significant other. Go to your local supermarket, Whole Foods, or farmers market and start buying random fruits/veggies you've never used before. Look up recipes online and see what you come up with. I was never much of a cook before (unless you call boiling pasta cooking...), but this experiment has helped me learn tons of new recipes that I love, including roasted veggies (incredibly easy and SO tasty), beet salad, acorn squash, sauteed mushrooms & onions, eggplant & jicama stir fry, and a whole bunch more.

 

[TallBill]

I go the cheap veggie route. It's like $2 for 2lb bags of frozen veggies. Corn, peas, green beans, broccoli.

 

[MrMatt]

Originally posted by: TallBill
I go the cheap veggie route. It's like $2 for 2lb bags of frozen veggies. Corn, peas, green beans, broccoli.

That's what I do!



edit: As for not getting enough fruits/veggies, I am trying to change that. But in the mean-time according to fitday I'm getting at least 150% of every single vitamin/mineral/nutrient that they track (except Vitamin E, which I never seem to be able to get more than 70% of)