First gaming build - Need input! $1600-1800

[mfenn]

OK, I've replaced some components:


New case:
Corsair Obsidian Series 650D (CC650DW-1)

New motherboard on your recommendations:
ASRock Z68 Extreme3 Gen3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard

New PSU - modular this time:
SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold ((SS-650KM Active PFC F3)) 650W ATX12V V2.3/EPS 12V V2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS GOLD

New SSD :
Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 2.5" 128GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

Bare RAM:
G.SKILL Value Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model F3-10600CL9D-8GBNT

Added an optical drive that I forgot...:
ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM

Thinking about ditching the sound card and, if I want one later on, picking it up then.

Good idea on the sound card. It's so easy to add one that there's no reason not to try out the onboard.

Everything else looks fine, though the PSU is overkill. I'd rather have a 6970 and an XFX Core 650W than a GTX 570 and a fancy Gold PSU.

 

[lehtv]

Nothing wrong with the PSU. It's an excellent deal on newegg atm, just $110 for the best 650W PSU there is. I would not pass it if it's in your budget

 

[mfenn]

Nothing wrong with the PSU. It's an excellent deal on newegg atm, just $110 for the best 650W PSU there is. I would not pass it if it's in your budget

Given that the OP has a finite budget, why? There are other parts that make an actual difference in performance the OP could upgrade with that money instead.

 

[lehtv]

Given that the OP has a finite budget, why?

Who doesn't have a finite budget? By that argument, no one should ever buy an 80+ gold PSU.

There are other parts that make an actual difference in performance the OP could upgrade with that money instead.

Where did you get the idea that it doesn't make a difference? Of course it makes a difference. X-650 is fully modular, ultra silent and ultra reliable, it will be happily delivering its rated wattage long after the XFX has bit the dust, and it will save you money doing so.

 

[mfenn]

Who doesn't have a finite budget? By that argument, no one should ever buy an 80+ gold PSU.

No, they should not pay double for an 80+ Gold PSU. If the price is close, of course they should get the Gold.

Where did you get the idea that it doesn't make a difference? Of course it makes a difference. X-650 fully modular, ultra silent and ultra reliable, it will be happily delivering its rated wattage long after the XFX has bit the dust, and it will save you money doing so.

First, read my post. I said, "parts that make an actual difference in performance". Second, let's go down your arguments one by one and see which ones hold water:

1. Fully modular: Correct there.
2. Ultra silent: This makes no sense, something is either silent or it isn't. The X650 is in no way silent. I'll buy that it is quieter, but that hardly makes a difference in a system with a GTX 570.
3. Ultra reliable, happily delivering its rated wattage long after the XFX has bit the dust: Show me the data that the X650 will last longer. They're both Seasonic built.
4. Will save you money doing so: Sure, if your break even point is 5 years. The Seasonic costs $50 more than the XFX. The X650 can be at most 6% more efficient than the XFX. If you assume $0.10kWH, and that the system will draw an average of 150W DC over the course of a year, that's 105kWH saved over the course of a year, so you would break even in 4.76 years. Just in time to get a new PSU because the X650 doesn't have the right connector for your new mobo.

 

[lehtv]

First, read my post. I said, "parts that make an actual difference in performance"

I didn't realise that by performance you meant only "how fast is it" type of performance

2. Ultra silent: This makes no sense, something is either silent or it isn't. The X650 is in no way silent. I'll buy that it is quieter, but that hardly makes a difference in a system with a GTX 570.

Oh, pardon my French. I meant ultra quiet

3. Ultra reliable, happily delivering its rated wattage long after the XFX has bit the dust: Show me the data that the X650 will last longer. They're both Seasonic built.

You don't really expect me to have data on that. I'm assuming that the lower waste heat output, resulting from higher efficiency, will make it more likely that the PSU lasts longer. And that the X series unit is probably more overspecced, so that capacitor aging will not matter as soon. And the lower fan RPM will wear out the fan bearing more slowly. Why are these not a fair assumptions? Maybe I did exaggerate a bit though.

4. Will save you money doing so: Sure, if your break even point is 5 years. The Seasonic costs $50 more than the XFX. The X650 can be at most 6% more efficient than the XFX. If you assume $0.10kWH, and that the system will draw an average of 150W DC over the course of a year, that's 105kWH saved over the course of a year, so you would break even in 4.76 years. Just in time to get a new PSU because the X650 doesn't have the right connector for your new mobo.

So it'll actually pay the difference back before the warranty is over? That's awesome.

Just in time to get a new PSU because the X650 doesn't have the right connector for your new mobo.

Doubt that'll happen... But it wouldn't hurt to buy a new PSU at that point anyway. They'll probably have Seasonic 80+ Platinum PSUs by then 8)

 

[mfenn]

I didn't realise that by performance you meant only "how fast is it" type of performance

Oh, pardon my French. I meant ultra quiet

You don't really expect me to have data on that. I'm assuming that the lower waste heat output, resulting from higher efficiency, will make it more likely that the PSU lasts longer. And that the X series unit is probably more overspecced, so that capacitor aging will not matter as soon. And the lower fan RPM will wear out the fan bearing more slowly. Why are these not a fair assumptions? Maybe I did exaggerate a bit though.

So it'll actually pay the difference back before the warranty is over? That's awesome.

Doubt that'll happen... But it wouldn't hurt to buy a new PSU at that point anyway. They'll probably have Seasonic 80+ Platinum PSUs by then 8)

There's my point right there. We don't know that the X650 will last significantly longer (mechanically and electrically speaking) and we sure as hell don't know if it'll even be useful in a system 5 years from now.

5 years is a ludicrously long time period in the computing world, so something that shows its worth at the tail end of that period is hardly worthwhile IMHO.

Edit for your edit: my point exactly. Why pay a huge premium today when something better will be cheaper the next time you build?

 

[lehtv]

There's my point right there. We don't know that the X650 will last significantly longer (mechanically and electrically speaking)

Well, that's a fair point. But it's only one of the potential reasons for buying the X-650. I agree that you need to draw the line somewhere in terms of what you actually need and what you benefit from. That applies to every PC component, not just power supplies. There's always the same law of diminishing returns when you pay for higher quality or performance. That said, I don't think you'd make a mistake either way - the X650 and the Core 650 are both great buys IMO. When I said "I wouldn't pass it", I didn't mean I'd fault the OP for going with XFX instead.

and we sure as hell don't know if it'll even be useful in a system 5 years from now.

I do agree that 5 years in the computing world is a long time and a lot of things can change. What was fast yesterday will be slow tomorrow. But PSUs are just part of the backbone that powers all those components that actually undergo that rapid improvement over time. While it is certain that components will be a lot faster and will require new data transfer specifications, we don't know that they will require new power specifications. In fact, I think it's unlikely, though possible, that components will use any more power 5 years from now. They may even use a lot less power. Performance increases because performance/watt increases, not because watt requirements increase.

Why pay a huge premium today when something better will be cheaper the next time you build?

In this particular case this is almost completely negated by the power savings over 80+ bronze by the time the PSU needs to be replaced.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

flamewar much?

 

[lehtv]

flamewar much?

Not at all . We're having a civil conversation here, feel free to join in :thumbsup:

 

[mfenn]

flamewar much?

Son, if you think the discussion that lehtv and I are having is a flame war, you don't get around very much. :biggrin:

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[mfenn]

First, to satisfy Takumi:

:twisted::twisted::twisted: FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME :twisted::twisted::twisted:

Glad I got that out of my system. :awe:

Well, that's a fair point. But it's only one of the potential reasons for buying the X-650. I agree that you need to draw the line somewhere in terms of what you actually need and what you benefit from. That applies to every PC component, not just power supplies. There's always the same law of diminishing returns when you pay for higher quality or performance. That said, I don't think you'd make a mistake either way - the X650 and the Core 650 are both great buys IMO. When I said "I wouldn't pass it", I didn't mean I'd fault the OP for going with XFX instead.

I do agree that 5 years in the computing world is a long time and a lot of things can change. What was fast yesterday will be slow tomorrow. But PSUs are just part of the backbone that powers all those components that actually undergo that rapid improvement over time. While it is certain that components will be a lot faster and will require new data transfer specifications, we don't know that they will require new power specifications. In fact, I think it's unlikely, though possible, that components will use any more power 5 years from now. They may even use a lot less power. Performance increases because performance/watt increases, not because watt requirements increase.

In this particular case this is almost completely negated by the power savings over 80+ bronze by the time the PSU needs to be replaced.

I completely agree with you that we've reached a plateau in the total power draw required by PCs. However, as we've seen over the past 5 or so years, the required voltage distribution changes as do connectors. 5 years ago, you would have seen PSUs out there with lots of power on the 5V, which is hardly used today. You also wouldn't have seen very many PCIe or SATA power connectors. Instead, you would have seen lots of Molex, which is also not really used today. So, while the form factor hasn't changed, the actual guts of what makes a good PSU have.

Also, when I did my calculation, I did best case for the X650 based on the limits of the 80Plus spec. If both PSUs fall somewhere in the middle of their respective bands, the break-even point goes out even further. Also, 150W average is a pretty high figure based on gaming 8 hours a day, which helps the X650 a lot. I didn't explicitly state this before, but I should have. I still think that, in light of all the factors, 5 years is too long of a time horizon.

So yeah, an X650 is a good PSU, I just don't think that it is $110 good and won't recommend it as such. That doesn't mean that my recommendations are the only good recommendations though.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Civil argument xD

 

[lehtv]

I completely agree with you that we've reached a plateau in the total power draw required by PCs. However, as we've seen over the past 5 or so years, the required voltage distribution changes as do connectors. 5 years ago, you would have seen PSUs out there with lots of power on the 5V, which is hardly used today. You also wouldn't have seen very many PCIe or SATA power connectors. Instead, you would have seen lots of Molex, which is also not really used today. So, while the form factor hasn't changed, the actual guts of what makes a good PSU have.

It's just hard to predict stuff like this, it could be compatible or it could not and nothing close to certain can be said on the matter before we get there... Either way though I don't personally care. I would likely buy a new PSU when upgrading the platform 5 years from now anyway. It'd make a lot more difference if power connector specs changed in 3 years from now, but even then you could either buy adapters or new cables (hey, it's modular) or just sell the PSU to someone using older tech since it'd be nowhere near its end of life.

Also, when I did my calculation, I did best case for the X650 based on the limits of the 80Plus spec. If both PSUs fall somewhere in the middle of their respective bands, the break-even point drops. I didn't explicitly state this before, but I should have. I still think that, in light of all the factors, 5 years is too long of a time horizon.

So yeah, an X650 is a good PSU, I just don't think that it is $110 good and won't recommend it as such. That doesn't mean that my recommendations are the only good recommendations though.

:thumbsup: