First Drive: 2004 Audi A8 L

[ElFenix]

never quite having the prestige of its more ballyhooed competitors ? you know who we're talking about.

well, it would have helped if audi hadn't ignored its cars falling apart in the mid-80s.

the back looks like a dodge stratus

as for the JD power IQ tests, those have so many subjective categories that its automatically biased toward luxury cars (and particularly lexus, which from the way they isolate the driver from the road to become a sofa on wheels, is teaching to the test, so to speak)

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: LittleWolf

Er dude, I actually own or owned some of these vehicles.

So have I. My parents owned an Audi 5000S back in the day and it was in the shop more than in it was in our garage. We ended up selling it after 3000 of the most frustrating miles of ownership we've ever experienced. But I realize that my experience alone is not enough to make a decision on a manufacturer's reliability so that's why I went to the surveys.

Dude You should know that JD Powers typically takes preliminary evidence into consideration when doing their rankings. If you take the most recent JD you would see folks ranking the new H2 as the worst and if you read a little further you will also realize that folks have ranked it last just because it sucks in fuel consumption... So you see it's got nothing to do with reliability necessarily.

Of course they take preliminary evidence, that's why it's called an initial quality survey. But the fact is, initial quality often (though not always) correlates to long-term reliability. The rankings you see on the IQS are fairly consistent with long-term reliability surveys from Consumer reports. And the fact that the H2 was dinged on its poor fuel economy and wind noise doesn't invalidate the survey. It's still a very good indicator of relative makes in the same class. An Audi owner is likely to be as discerning as a BMW owner for example, and things like fuel economy and aerodynamics are not a problem for either car.

CR would be a better interpretation and frankly the BMW 3 (after almost 5 years in production it better bloody have all kinks ironed out) and A4 (brand new 1st year model) are neck to neck.

Reliable Audi A4 years (average reliability) from CR: 96, 98, 99, 01.
Reliable BMW 3-series years: 96, 97, 98, 99, 02.

So even comparing over the last 7 years, BMW still has Audi beat. And I won't even go into what kind of a quality nightmare the TT has been - no BMW roadster has even been close to as bad.

The base 5 is the only one which makes above the water cut. And also you mentioned about issues or intensity of issue - exactly my point. BMWs have known to blow engines a good bit (5 and M3) where Audi's are built like a tank.

If Audi's engines are built like a tank, then why is the A4's engine reliability below that of the 3-series for the last 5 years? The 5-series' engine reliability is neck-and-neck with the A6 for 00 and 01 (the last 2 years of data for the A6), and has an excellent rating for 02. The engine failures for BMW were overblown (no pun intended)- a classic case of a small but very vocal minority exaggerating the prevalence of the issue.

Audi's are more likely to have some minor issues - electrical, glass, regulator etc. And yes generally Audi dealerships & service ( and VWAG as a whole) sucks compared to BMWs. Unfortunately CR doesn't necessarily brand/classify them separately. So a fault is listed as a fault. Plus ask any older model BMW owner the cost of maintaining a BMW and compare than to an equivalent year Audi. I hope you get my point.

CR does categorize the issues, i.e. engine, cooling, body hardware, electrical, etc. And Audi consistently ranks below BMW in engine reliability (last 5 years) and transmission reliability (up to last year) for the A4 - clearly that shows that there are a significant number of larger problems being seen, not just minor electrical, glass, regulator, etc.

Your research means didly squat to me, since I can do (and actually do too) a good bit of research and found actually Audi's quite well compared to BMW if not better. This is including consensus of many folks whom I know personally and own these cars.

And your personal/ anecdotal evidence means squat to me. Of the people I know who own Audis, more of them have been problematic than not. I still tried to give Audi the benefit of the doubt when I started doing some research, but nothing has convinced me that their reliability is yet up to par.

You have still failed to quantify how "Audi is well behind BMW"...

If what I've covered on Audi in comparison to BMW in CR and JDP aren't enough for you, I guess nothing is.

 

[LittleWolf]

Of course they take preliminary evidence, that's why it's called an initial quality survey. But the fact is, initial quality often (though not always) correlates to long-term reliability.

Glad you figured that it is just the initial quality. wonder why you still keep bringing it up then. Anyhow Audi's or BMWs for that matter have very few minor if any initial issues.

An Audi owner is likely to be as discerning as a BMW owner for example

Possibly. Personally I feel Audi owners are more discerning and intelligent than a Joe Smoe who just wants to trot around in a flashy BMW.

And I won't even go into what kind of a quality nightmare the TT has been - no BMW roadster has even been close to as bad.

Neither do I want to go into the nightmares the new 7 series has had or the X5 for that matter. And frankly the quality nighmares you mention about the TT are mostly related to it's roof etc leaking and stuff like that. You also obviously haven't heard of the initial issues the crappy Z3 had.

If Audi's engines are built like a tank, then why is the A4's engine reliability below that of the 3-series for the last 5 years?

Since CR is such a bible for you, enlighten me on the fact that while the sames engines were used in A4 and Passat (both 1.8T and V6) why are they more reliable in the Passat compared to the A4? Realize the fact that some dufus who doesn't tighten his gas cap has his check-engine light show up on a typically extra sensitive system and hence he goes to the dealer complaining of engine problem. CR ofcourse goes ahead and marks it as engine problem, while in reliability it has little bearing on actual engine issues. And this example is a very genuine case with thousand of folks who bought new Audi's in late 90s.
Point of matter is that I have yet to hear a real problem with engines or tranmissions for the A4. And I have been reading all the Audi forums etc where "whiners" typically are all over the place for more than couple of years. Unlike the BMW 540 and M3 engines which were blowing quite a good bit in reality and not exaggeration as you would like to suggest.

I still tried to give Audi the benefit of the doubt when I started doing some research, but nothing has convinced me that their reliability is yet up to par.
If what I've covered on Audi in comparison to BMW in CR and JDP aren't enough for you, I guess nothing is.

JDP again is initial. They would bloody rank all cars including Buicks & Yugos as top-notch but it has little bearing on their long-term quality. When was the last time a Toyota Corolla, Camry or Accord/Civic (argueably the most reliable cars on the planet) topped in a JDP survey. And nothing in your or CRs comments has convincingly proven that "BMWs are way better than Audi's in reliability" as you would like to assert. Fair enough if you want to use CR as your bible. Can't help lemmings.

 

[Howard]

I wonder if an aftermarket tuner is going to design a turbo kit for that car.

 

[EvilYoda]

mmmmmmmm, love it! Good to hear good things about Audi...yet another "ass" that I'll have to look out for since I haven't seen one yet (and the front is relatively the same)

 

[NFS4]

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6031&sid=183&n=157

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: LittleWolf

Glad you figured that it is just the initial quality. wonder why you still keep bringing it up then.

If you can't see a connection between initial and long-term quality, then I'm wasting my time with you. If a certain car has more problems initially, it's pretty reasonable to expect it to have more problems down the line. The reason why Initial quality is used is because it is also a fairly good indicator of long-term reliability. But you seem to have trouble coming to grips with this rather obvious connection.

Anyhow Audi's or BMWs for that matter have very few minor if any initial issues.

Oh really, compared to who? Maybe you didn't catch that Audi is below chevy, Buick, and Mercury in initial problems and BARELY manages to stay above average? That's pretty poor performance for a luxury car manufacturer.

Neither do I want to go into the nightmares the new 7 series has had or the X5 for that matter. And frankly the quality nighmares you mention about the TT are mostly related to it's roof etc leaking and stuff like that. You also obviously haven't heard of the initial issues the crappy Z3 had.

I can safely say that neither the 7-series, the Z3, nor the X5 have been 80% below average in reliability or had the dubious honor of attaining CR's WORST possible predicted reliability rating, as the TT has.

Since CR is such a bible for you, enlighten me on the fact that while the sames engines were used in A4 and Passat (both 1.8T and V6) why are they more reliable in the Passat compared to the A4?

The Audi has been using a 3.0L engine whereas the Passat has been continuing to use the 2.8L since 01. You'll note that the Passat's engine reliability improved after '01 while the A4 did not. And then there's the fact that that Audi mates the engine with among other trannies, a CVT, which isn't exactly a small deal.

Realize the fact that some dufus who doesn't tighten his gas cap has his check-engine light show up on a typically extra sensitive system and hence he goes to the dealer complaining of engine problem. CR ofcourse goes ahead and marks it as engine problem, while in reliability it has little bearing on actual engine issues.

Things like this are just as likely to happen with other cars, unless you believe Audi drivers are in general more prone to doing this than your average BMW driver.

And this example is a very genuine case with thousand of folks who bought new Audi's in late 90s.
Point of matter is that I have yet to hear a real problem with engines or tranmissions for the A4. And I have been reading all the Audi forums etc where "whiners" typically are all over the place for more than couple of years. Unlike the BMW 540 and M3 engines which were blowing quite a good bit in reality and not exaggeration as you would like to suggest.

Define "quite a good bit". And I like where you get your data that it's not an exaggerated problem - a bunch of whiners on forums? Very scientific. CR may not be my bible, but to me it holds a lot more value than the sources you seem to be drawing from.

JDP again is initial. They would bloody rank all cars including Buicks & Yugos as top-notch but it has little bearing on their long-term quality. When was the last time a Toyota Corolla, Camry or Accord/Civic (argueably the most reliable cars on the planet) topped in a JDP survey.

Lexus has un-arguably the most reliable cars on the planet, and they top the survey every single year. It's no surprise that Buick does well in the survey, they make very reliable cars, and it is what the brand is trying to distinguish itself on. Their designs don't change much from year to year and they are built like rocks. CR even confirms it - the Regal is second only to the Maxima in reliability in it's class, followed closely by the Century. Both even beat the Toyota Camry. And Acura, Honda, and Toyota are always right around the top of the JD Power rankings, as they should be. It is not rocket science to make the connection between initial and long-term quality.

And nothing in your or CRs comments has convincingly proven that "BMWs are way better than Audi's in reliability" as you would like to assert. Fair enough if you want to use CR as your bible. Can't help lemmings.

Yeah, God forbid I use a somewhat credible source to base my arguments on. Maybe I should use highly scientific sources like anecdotal evidence and forum whining like you have.

In any case, I'm tired of debating this. If you want to continue to cling to your belief that Audi's reliability is equal to or better than BMW's based on what you see at audiworld and roadfly, then I guess I'm never going to change your mind and we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[LittleWolf]

Yeah, God forbid I use a somewhat credible source to base my arguments on. Maybe I should use highly scientific sources like anecdotal evidence and forum whining like you have.

Not to rake up old topic. but if you read the latest CR, the BMW 3 was rated below average and knocked off the list.

Also fol. are recall list for the current BMW 3 when it came out. Not exactly a small list. That being said, I will admit that BMW service & and ofcourse marketing (since lot of lemmings buy it thinking that it is most sporty and reliable) is generally much better than Audi. Audi and VAG in general suck in service and Customer service relationations and hence even smaller problems (which normally even won't get reported in surveys) get blown out of proportion.
Anyhow I am not gonna post any more in this thread. To each his own. I prefer real-world experiences and give it precedence over CR rankings when it comes to autos. For buying a toaster CR's the best.




Bulletins for 1999 BMW 328i (E46) L6-2793cc 2.8L DOHC (M52 TU)

Safety Recalls

TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title
630200 MAR 00 Recall - Brake Lamp Switch Replacement

000194 JAN 00 Campaign/Recall - Codes Index

720499 DEC 99 Recall - 99V063 MRS Control Module Recoding

350199 MAY 99 Recall - Inspection of Brake Linkage Retaining Clip

Emissions Recalls

TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 110701 JUL 01 Recall - Engine Thermostat Inspection/Replacement

121599 NOV 00 Recall - OBDII Non Compliance

General Recalls

TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 230100 AUG 00 Campaign - M/T Drain Plug Oil Leaks

000194 JAN 00 Campaign/Recall - Codes Index

120498 SEP 98 Campaign - Vacuum Hose to Secondary Air Non Return Valve

Service Bulletins

TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 210101 FEB 02 M/T - Popping/Clicking From Clutch Pedal

640891 JAN 02 A/C - Musty Odors

240500 DEC 01 A/T - Erratic Shifting/Trans Light ON/FC 60 Set

240998 DEC 01 A/T - GM5 Clunk Noise

240200 DEC 01 A/T - Hard/No Shift/Gear Error Fault Codes Stored in TCM

120199 DEC 01 Spark Plug (HP Platinum) - Application Chart

540701 DEC 01 Sunroof - Revised Initialization Procedures

640698 OCT 01 A/C - Intermittent Blower Motor Operation

340801 OCT 01 ABS System - Activates When Coming to a Stop

110898 OCT 01 Engine - Oil Recommendations/Change Intervals

630301 OCT 01 Xenon Headlamp Bulbs - Installation Tips

240198 SEP 01 A/T - Fluid Level Checking Procedure

110101 JUN 01 Engine - MIL ON/Codes Set/Tapping/Rattling Noise

841197 JUN 01 Navigation System - Numerous Failures/Malfunctions

110600 MAY 01 Engine - New Oil Filter Element

120297 APR 01 MIL ON - Poor Driveability & Multiple Misfire DTC's Set

630201 MAR 01 Light Bulb - Replacement Guidelines

720101 MAR 01 Seat Belts - Click/Rattle From Upper Mount

840201 FEB 01 Audio System - Delayed Sound/No Audio Display

840101 FEB 01 Cellular Phone - No Volume Adjustment

630399 FEB 01 Headlamps - Misting/Condensation Inside

090101 FEB 01 Vehicle and Key - Memory Programming

630101 FEB 01 Xenon Lamp Bulb - Color Change After Operation

640101 JAN 01 A/C System - Musty Odors

611600 JAN 01 Battery - Maintenance

160400 DEC 00 Check Engine Lamp ON/DTC's Stored

841200 DEC 00 Digital Cellular Phone - Training/Troubleshooting Manual

410200 DEC 00 Interior - Wind Buffeting

650200 DEC 00 Radio/CD Player - Intermittently CD won't Eject

540700 DEC 00 Sunroof - Intermittently Inoperative

110901 DEC 00 Thermal Oil Level Sensor - Operation and Diagnosis

721100 NOV 00 Child Seat Tether Anchor - Installation

180299 NOV 00 Exhaust System - Back Pressure Checking Tool

340300 NOV 00 Front Brakes - Squealing

510500 NOV 00 Passenger Mirror - Moves When Reverse Is Selected

330200 NOV 00 Rear Differential - Whine Noise

240900 OCT 00 A/T - Repair/Replacement Guidelines

720897 OCT 00 Airbags - Deactivation

241000 OCT 00 Engine Control Module - MS 43 Removal Precautions

640300 SEP 00 A/C Evaporator - Ices Up

720500 SEP 00 SRS - Warning Light ON, Codes 05 or 06 Set

650499 AUG 00 Audio System - Test CD/Tape

610800 AUG 00 Electrical - Closed Circuit Current Measurement

620400 AUG 00 IC Conversion - Km/h to Mph or Mph to Km/h

230200 AUG 00 M/T - Oil Fill/Drain Plugs Updated

650599 AUG 00 Radio - Security Codes in The DCS

720200 JUL 00 Airbag Control Module - Warning Light ON/Codes Set

510400 JUL 00 Door Sound/Vapor Barrier - Water Leaks

610500 JUL 00 Electrical Connnectors - Stabilant 22A Contact Enhancer

720399 JUL 00 Rear Airbag - Activation/Deactivation

610700 JUL 00 Windshield Wiper Blades - Noisy/Not Cleaning Well

840700 JUN 00 Accessory Navigation System - Information

720600 JUN 00 Head Protection System - Airbag Replacement

620200 JUN 00 Instrument Cluster - Erratic Operation Diagnosis

110500 JUN 00 Oil Pan/Filter Housing - Buzzing, Rattling Noise

640100 MAY 00 A/C - IHKA Module LED in A/C Button FLASHES

240800 MAY 00 A/T - Fault Code 48, TCC Solenoid

160100 MAY 00 Fuel System - MIL ON, Tank Leakage Fault Codes

160498 MAY 00 Instruments - New Fuel Level Sensor Testing Caution

510100 MAY 00 Window Regulator - Squeaking/Clicking Noises

610200 APR 00 Airbag Systems - Wiring Repair Procedure

610100 MAR 00 Electronic Battery Disconnect Switch - New

040900 MAR 00 Service Information Ruling for OBD

1000298 MAR 00 Service Round Table - March 2000

1000300 MAR 00 Service Round Table Content Slides - 2/2000

070296 MAR 00 Updated DIS Software CD 21

650299 FEB 00 Audio - Generator Whine and Ticking Noise On AM Band

620100 FEB 00 Instrument Cluster - No Seat Belt Warning after Coding

1000100 FEB 00 Service Round Table Content Slides

040600 FEB 00 Special Tools - DSCIII Test Cable

040800 FEB 00 Tools - New Special Tool CD

657500 JAN 00 Business Radio - Service Mode Function Information

650100 JAN 00 CD Changer - Installation Precautions

651199 JAN 00 CD Changer - Installation/Operation Tips

040300 JAN 00 Fuel Level Sender - Spanner

630100 JAN 00 Headlamps - New Vertical Adjustment Settings

840799 JAN 00 Navigation Computer - Complete Failure

841199 JAN 00 Navigation System - Multiple Malfunctions

002292 JAN 00 Spark Plug/Engine Oil Capacity Reference Chart

040200 JAN 00 Tools - Tank Ventilation Leak Coupler

340399 DEC 99 Brakes - Vibration When Braking

330192 DEC 99 Differential - Final Drive Synthetic Oil Recommendations

620599 DEC 99 Instrument Cluster - Odometer Jumps to Lower Value

230399 DEC 99 M/T - Exchange Transmission Oil Specification

610788 NOV 99 Battery - Maintenance Requirements

240595 OCT 99 A/T - Poor Shift Quality

640499 SEP 99 A/C - Inoperative, Compressor Not Engaged

180199 SEP 99 Catalytic Converter - Unnecessary Replacements

651099 SEP 99 Radio - CD43 CD will Not Eject

410299 SEP 99 Rear Control Arm - Bolt Holes Stripped

640699 SEP 99 Windshield - Fogging/Condensation Avoidance Tips

121799 AUG 99 ECM - RPM Hang During Shifts/Hard Shifting

840499 AUG 99 GPS - Satellite Timer Reset Information

840696 AUG 99 Navigation System - Software Ordering

650999 AUG 99 Radio Display - ALERT Message On Display

340798 JUL 99 Brakes - Twitch in Steering Wheel With Rapid Application

000698 JUL 99 PDI - Preparation & Maintenance Requirements

650699 JUN 99 DWA - Lock/Unlock Option Missing in Car/Key Memory

040899 JUN 99 New Self Adjusting Clutch Clamping Fixture

310199 JUN 99 Suspension - Noise From Front Control Arm Mount

070296 JUN 99 Updated DIS Software CD 18.0

001098 MAY 99 Electrical Trouble Shooting Manuals - Available on CD

841197 MAY 99 Navigation System - Software CD V11

360299 MAY 99 Tires - Pressure Placards

650299 APR 99 Audio - E46 Generator Interference Whine on AM Band

650199 APR 99 Audio - E46 Radio Noise on AM Band/Poor AM Reception

720299 APR 99 Child Seat Tether Anchor - Mounting Points

510299 APR 99 License Plate Brackets - Mounting

330299 APR 99 Rear Suspension - Pops or Snaps on Dips and Bumps

360199 APR 99 Tires - Application Chart

610399 APR 99 Vehicle Convenience Feature - Operation/Information

340199 MAR 99 Brakes - ASC/ABS Lamp ON, Code 31, 41 Rear Speed Sensor

090398 MAR 99 Car Memory/Key Memory - Configuration Revision

840299 MAR 99 Cellular Telephone - Prewire Connection/Coax Location

040699 MAR 99 Electrical Connector Kit 4 - Supplement

660199 MAR 99 Interior Light - Cannot be Switched On By Remote Switch

030398 MAR 99 New Model - Training Manual Update

040199 MAR 99 Windshield - Replacement Tools

720199 FEB 99 SRS - Warining Lamp ON/Code 25 Set

620399 FEB 99 Check Control - Brake Light Failure Indicated

650399 FEB 99 Cruise Control - Intermittently Inoperative

230199 FEB 99 M/T - Difficult to Shift, Diagnostic Tips

511098 FEB 99 Rear Bumper Cover - Poor Fit/Alignment

247598 JAN 99 A/T - Overview Of New Model

120399 JAN 99 ECM - Reprogramming W/P16.0 Version Software

120698 JAN 99 Instruments - No Crank Caused by Faulty Oil Level Sensor

620898 DEC 98 Key in Ignition Warning Chime - Continues to Sound

651898 NOV 98 CD Player - CD43 CD Skips Constantly

840798 NOV 98 Cellular Phone - Prewire Harness Installation

120298 NOV 98 Engine Control Modules - Programming Hints

041098 OCT 98 Special Tools - Electric Seat Test Cable

510998 OCT 98 Windows/Glass - New Adhesive Kit

110598 SEP 98 Crankcase Ventilation System - Diagnostic Information

007698 AUG 98 New Model - General Information

010798 JUL 98 Flat Rate Manual - 1st Edition

000698 JUL 98 PDI - Preparation and Maintenance Requirements

000998 JUL 98 Vehicle - Quality Control Information

340298 APR 98 ABS/ASC - Warning Lights On During Dynamometer Test

090198 APR 98 Computers/Controls - Custom Configuration

651896 MAR 98 CD Player Malfunctions - Skips on Rough Road Surface

070198 MAR 98 DIS Schematic Information

040298 MAR 98 Electrical Repair Kit IV - Additional Connectors

1203891838 MAR 89 Engine - High Pressure Steam Cleaning Warning

 

[Spac3d]

MSRP - $69,190. Yikes. Audi's are nice, but that is a LOT of money for an Audi.

 

[isekii]

Originally posted by: Spac3d
MSRP - $69,190. Yikes. Audi's are nice, but that is a LOT of money for an Audi.

Just get a mildly used one.
it'll drop in price by like 25k

Audi's have horrible resale value, except for like the S4 and what not.

 

[bigdog1218]

So have I. My parents owned an Audi 5000S back in the day and it was in the shop more than in it was in our garage. We ended up selling it after 3000 of the most frustrating miles of ownership we've ever experienced. But I realize that my experience alone is not enough to make a decision on a manufacturer's reliability so that's why I went to the surveys.

Not only is it not enough, its worthless. My parents put 150,000 miles on their 1984 audi 5000 before selling it to my uncle who still uses it, its almost 20 years old and works like a charm.

And if i had the money to spend on a car it would be such a tough choice between an A8 and that ford focus, i mean the focus screams reliability, and its so reliable, and its reliability is so good.

 

[Cfour]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: sohcrates
nice, great car, go audi

I just LOVE the design of this car. I could do without the cheesy looking wheels though. The interior is GORGEOUS!

I agree! The only thing I don't like is the steering wheel.

 

[LittleWolf]

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: Spac3d
MSRP - $69,190. Yikes. Audi's are nice, but that is a LOT of money for an Audi.

Just get a mildly used one.
it'll drop in price by like 25k

Audi's have horrible resale value, except for like the S4 and what not.

But than almost all sedans in that price class drop like a rock after mild usage.

 

[LittleWolf]

Originally posted by: Spac3d
MSRP - $69,190. Yikes. Audi's are nice, but that is a LOT of money for an Audi.

I think it is a bargain for that price if you compare it with the BMW 7 and MB SL, which it handily beats in every respect from sporty to luxury. Just curious what makes you feel that's lot of money for an Audi? Do you think so jus because the brand doesn't have enough BLING unlike a Merc or BMW?

 

[AvesPKS]

Yep, the first thing I think of when I think of the Kentucky Derby is Audi...

 

[Phuz]

Awesome machine, hate the rims.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: LittleWolf

Yeah, God forbid I use a somewhat credible source to base my arguments on. Maybe I should use highly scientific sources like anecdotal evidence and forum whining like you have.

Not to rake up old topic. but if you read the latest CR, the BMW 3 was rated below average and knocked off the list.

Also fol. are recall list for the current BMW 3 when it came out. Not exactly a small list. That being said, I will admit that BMW service & and ofcourse marketing (since lot of lemmings buy it thinking that it is most sporty and reliable) is generally much better than Audi. Audi and VAG in general suck in service and Customer service relationations and hence even smaller problems (which normally even won't get reported in surveys) get blown out of proportion.

Not sure I understand here...you seem not to place much credence in CR yet you use it to point out BMW as being below average.

And if you're going to post a recall list, why not have the list for the current A4 when it came out for comparison? I do agree that BMW's reliability is vastly overrated - actually I think most everything about BMW is overrated, but my point was that they fared well in reliability compared to Audi.

To each his own.

We'll leave it at this then. I trust CR over personal or anecdotal experience. It's not perfect but I trust it more than info from friends or forum whiners.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

So have I. My parents owned an Audi 5000S back in the day and it was in the shop more than in it was in our garage. We ended up selling it after 3000 of the most frustrating miles of ownership we've ever experienced. But I realize that my experience alone is not enough to make a decision on a manufacturer's reliability so that's why I went to the surveys.

Not only is it not enough, its worthless. My parents put 150,000 miles on their 1984 audi 5000 before selling it to my uncle who still uses it, its almost 20 years old and works like a charm.

Thanks for sharing your worthless experience as well. This is why I put little faith in personal experience, yours or mine.

And if i had the money to spend on a car it would be such a tough choice between an A8 and that ford focus, i mean the focus screams reliability, and its so reliable, and its reliability is so good.

Yeah, guess it's just silly to ask for solid reliability when you're paying 40-80 grand for a car.

 

[LittleWolf]

Not sure I understand here...you seem not to place much credence in CR yet you use it to point out BMW as being below average.

Since you use CR as your bible for buying cars and mentioned it as your proving factor in saying that BMW 3 has been recommended by CR, I thought of mentioning what CR thinks of it in it's latest issue.

 

[LittleWolf]

Thanks for sharing your worthless experience as well. This is why I put little faith in personal experience,

Yeah CR just brings out their ratings based on the direction the wind is blowing. Personal experiences are not used in the ratings.

Yeah, guess it's just silly to ask for solid reliability when you're paying 40-80 grand for a car.

In that case, all you would be buying are Lexus and Acuras. Good luck to you my friend...

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: yakko

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: sohcrates
nice, great car, go audi

I just LOVE the design of this car. I could do without the cheesy looking wheels though. The interior is GORGEOUS!

The wheels are about my only complaint. I love the car otherwise.

Wheels and rims can be changed, so I fail to see the problem

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Nemesis77

Originally posted by: yakko

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: sohcrates
nice, great car, go audi

I just LOVE the design of this car. I could do without the cheesy looking wheels though. The interior is GORGEOUS!

The wheels are about my only complaint. I love the car otherwise.

Wheels and rims can be changed, so I fail to see the problem

That car should have NEVER left the factory with wheels that damn ugly and cheap looking

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Nemesis77

Originally posted by: yakko

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: sohcrates
nice, great car, go audi

I just LOVE the design of this car. I could do without the cheesy looking wheels though. The interior is GORGEOUS!

The wheels are about my only complaint. I love the car otherwise.

Wheels and rims can be changed, so I fail to see the problem

That car should have NEVER left the factory with wheels that damn ugly and cheap looking

I wouldn't be surprised if you could choose different rims before it leaves the factory. Point is, the rims are a minor thing, they can be easily changed.

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

So have I. My parents owned an Audi 5000S back in the day and it was in the shop more than in it was in our garage. We ended up selling it after 3000 of the most frustrating miles of ownership we've ever experienced. But I realize that my experience alone is not enough to make a decision on a manufacturer's reliability so that's why I went to the surveys.

Not only is it not enough, its worthless. My parents put 150,000 miles on their 1984 audi 5000 before selling it to my uncle who still uses it, its almost 20 years old and works like a charm.

Thanks for sharing your worthless experience as well. This is why I put little faith in personal experience, yours or mine.

And if i had the money to spend on a car it would be such a tough choice between an A8 and that ford focus, i mean the focus screams reliability, and its so reliable, and its reliability is so good.

Yeah, guess it's just silly to ask for solid reliability when you're paying 40-80 grand for a car.

I had a great experience with Audis, but I don't go around saying all audis are built like tanks and last forever. You had one bad experience and branded Audi as a pos car.

And roll your eyes all you want, but my point was thats all a focus or civic offer is reliability and nothing else. When you get an Audi or another european car your getting great performance, comfort, luxury, style, and the list goes on and on.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

So have I. My parents owned an Audi 5000S back in the day and it was in the shop more than in it was in our garage. We ended up selling it after 3000 of the most frustrating miles of ownership we've ever experienced. But I realize that my experience alone is not enough to make a decision on a manufacturer's reliability so that's why I went to the surveys.

Not only is it not enough, its worthless. My parents put 150,000 miles on their 1984 audi 5000 before selling it to my uncle who still uses it, its almost 20 years old and works like a charm.

Thanks for sharing your worthless experience as well. This is why I put little faith in personal experience, yours or mine.

And if i had the money to spend on a car it would be such a tough choice between an A8 and that ford focus, i mean the focus screams reliability, and its so reliable, and its reliability is so good.

Yeah, guess it's just silly to ask for solid reliability when you're paying 40-80 grand for a car.

I had a great experience with Audis, but I don't go around saying all audis are built like tanks and last forever. You had one bad experience and branded Audi as a pos car.

Did you even read my posts? I listed my single experience and went on to say that it meant NOTHING. I never labelled Audi "POS cars" and only based my perception on their relative reliability to BMW on surveys. Next time you insert yourself into an argument at least make sure you have read what people have said.

And roll your eyes all you want, but my point was thats all a focus or civic offer is reliability and nothing else. When you get an Audi or another european car your getting great performance, comfort, luxury, style, and the list goes on and on.

Yes, you do get all of those things with euro cars, but when you are paying a premium for a daily driver, solid reliability should be a given. All the luxury, style and comfort in the world means shlt if your car is a permanent fixture in your mechanic's garage.