Finland's basic income trial boosts happiness but not employment

[Fanatical Meat]

There's the rub. What happens when people lose purpose on a massive scale? Humans are cave animals which "do things" to survive. That is our evolutionary mandate. TNG pipe dreams are just that. The pursuit of art and music and higher qualities are fantasy and not because of technology, but because we aren't those animals the series portrays.

Yeah always found that suspicious about TNG, why do they do anything when the holodeck can simulate whatever you want and food replicators can provide you with whatever you want.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yeah always found that suspicious about TNG, why do they do anything when the holodeck can simulate whatever you want and food replicators can provide you with whatever you want.

Why have fear and danger when one can be God?

This comes to mind.

 

[Starbuck1975]

AI will one day Design Robots that are then built by other Robots. Other Robots will perform Maintenance of Robots. Humans will pursue Hobbies/Interests, but Labour for Money will not be part of their lives. There will be some exceptions, Artists and Inventors for eg,

I think there is the potential of some very negative consequences of this though. There will be no need for Billions of People, Elites may use that to justify atrocity. Another risk might be that Religions or Social Movements may turn extreme and/or violent due to massive groups of People simply having nothing better to do. We really need to improve our Ethics and Social Institutions in order to transition to this future.

Butlerian Jihad

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Butlerian Jihad

Possible in some form, with limitations instead of outright bans of all "thinking machines". If it happens then Butlerian would be apt, not Frank but Samuel Butler

 

[Starbuck1975]

Possible in some form, with limitations instead of outright bans of all "thinking machines". If it happens then Butlerian would be apt, not Frank but Samuel Butler

When thinking machines collide with genetic engineering, we are in for an interesting debate. What if machines decide that the best say to resolve tensions around identity is to simply eliminate that variable from the equation?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

When thinking machines collide with genetic engineering, we are in for an interesting debate. What if machines decide that the best say to resolve tensions around identity is to simply eliminate that variable from the equation?

Developing a non human species that suits the "sensibilities" of machines using us as a starting point is possible, or the elimination of us and anything else. This isn't being malicious, but what AI will almost certainly not be is human in any meaningful way. Just accomplishing a task could result in removing undesirable variables, and we might be one. Swatting mosquitoes isn't an act of evil intent.

The only way to prevent that level of AI would be a prospective Butlerian Jihad of a sort such as a global ban with automatic and horrible penalties uo to and including vaporization of governments and facilities by nukes.

At this time this is second on my list of apocalyptic scenarios, being toppled by our own creations. That day is still some time off if it happens.

 

[glenn1]

Developing a non human species that suits the "sensibilities" of machines using us as a starting point is possible, or the elimination of us and anything else. This isn't being malicious, but what AI will almost certainly not be is human in any meaningful way. Just accomplishing a task could result in removing undesirable variables, and we might be one. Swatting mosquitoes isn't an act of evil intent.

The only way to prevent that level of AI would be a prospective Butlerian Jihad of a sort such as a global ban with automatic and horrible penalties uo to and including vaporization of governments and facilities by nukes.

At this time this is second on my list of apocalyptic scenarios, being toppled by our own creations. That day is still some time off if it happens.

You should read this article and its followup if you haven’t already.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You should read this article and its followup if you haven’t already.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

Thanks for that. I have not seen that particular article and it looks to be a good one. The only thing I can say that whatever the world looks like now it certainly won't be anything like 2119.

 

[glenn1]

Thanks for that. I have not seen that particular article and it looks to be a good one. The only thing I can say that whatever the world looks like now it certainly won't be anything like 2119.

It's a long article but definitely worth reading. One of the best written pieces (and suitable for laypeople) I've read on the subject of AI and how it will impact humanity.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Yeah, good link Glenn, I just started on it and already intrigued.

 

[Mai72]

The future belongs to the people who can adapt quickly to the changing landscape, and who can work without being distracted. Let's look at this further.

1) Adaptability. IMO, our public schools are stuck in a time warp. The 20th century is over, yet we teach our children old and outdated material that isn't going to be relevant in our new world. So, when they get out of HS, so many of our children are lost. It's not just the school system, it's society as well. How many Americans still dream about the past? My guess is it's a lot. It's why Trump got into office. The past was great. The past was awesome. The 50s were great. Not a good mindset to bring into the new century. Yet, so many people are afflicted with this, so it makes them bitter and resentful. The past is done. Over. How quickly can you adapt to the new world. That is key.

2) Distractions. This is a big one. I see so many people today who have difficulty focusing on things that matter. IMO, social media is partially to blame here. Facebook feeds, IG stories, Snapchat. All little dopamine hits that done over time turns you into someone who has difficulty working on tasks, studying, learning, and delayed gratification. Check out the marshmallow experiment for more on this. The study was done in the 1950s. Being able to delay gratification is HUGE when it comes to success in life. That means putting down the phone when it's time to work. It means studying for the night instead of playing PUBG, or Apex Legends. It means doing sh*t that sucks like going to bed at 9pm, so you can hit the gym early in the morning before work or school.

Anyway, just my opinion. We are going into uncharted territory. The people who have difficulty adapting are going to hate it. But, if you can adapt and stay the course you are going to crush it. I've brought this up before. I have a sister whose younger than me. She's gay. Was a researcher at Boston U. Lost her job due to cuts. She is also a huge gamer. But she knows how to focus and gets shit done. She can also easily adapt. She got a job at a startup and started at $80k. They weren't even going to take her on but her work ethic is amazing. She was out working these young guys very easily. Her work is done remotely so if you don't have focus and discipline you'll be in trouble. You'll never get anything done. Her younger coworkers were often handing in work late and much of it was subpar. I'm sure many people who read this can relate. She's making approximately $120k now.

I'm not a big fan when it comes to government intervention. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. Why? Because the government doesn't have your best interest. Only you can have that for yourself. So, if your IQ is adequate and you can learn rapidly then its on you. If you have mental health problems then the government should be involved for that person's welfare.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The future belongs to the people who can adapt quickly to the changing landscape, and who can work without being distracted. Let's look at this further.

1) Adaptability. IMO, our public schools are stuck in a time warp. The 20th century is over, yet we teach our children old and outdated material that isn't going to be relevant in our new world. So, when they get out of HS, so many of our children are lost. It's not just the school system, it's society as well. How many Americans still dream about the past? My guess is it's a lot. It's why Trump got into office. The past was great. The past was awesome. The 50s were great. Not a good mindset to bring into the new century. Yet, so many people are afflicted with this, so it makes them bitter and resentful. The past is done. Over. How quickly can you adapt to the new world. That is key.

2) Distractions. This is a big one. I see so many people today who have difficulty focusing on things that matter. IMO, social media is partially to blame here. Facebook feeds, IG stories, Snapchat. All little dopamine hits that done over time turns you into someone who has difficulty working on tasks, studying, learning, and delayed gratification. Check out the marshmallow experiment for more on this. The study was done in the 1950s. Being able to delay gratification is HUGE when it comes to success in life. That means putting down the phone when it's time to work. It means studying for the night instead of playing PUBG, or Apex Legends. It means doing sh*t that sucks like going to bed at 9pm, so you can hit the gym early in the morning before work or school.

Anyway, just my opinion. We are going into uncharted territory. The people who have difficulty adapting are going to hate it. But, if you can adapt and stay the course you are going to crush it. I've brought this up before. I have a sister whose younger than me. She's gay. Was a researcher at Boston U. Lost her job due to cuts. She is also a huge gamer. But she knows how to focus and gets shit done. She can also easily adapt. She got a job at a startup and started at $80k. They weren't even going to take her on but her work ethic is amazing. She was out working these young guys very easily. Her work is done remotely so if you don't have focus and discipline you'll be in trouble. You'll never get anything done. Her younger coworkers were often handing in work late and much of it was subpar. I'm sure many people who read this can relate. She's making approximately $120k now.

I'm not a big fan when it comes to government intervention. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. Why? Because the government doesn't have your best interest. Only you can have that for yourself. So, if your IQ is adequate and you can learn rapidly then its on you. If you have mental health problems then the government should be involved for that person's welfare.

You haven't addressed what happens when you and everyone you know become "Captain Dunsel"? The most intellectual and academically adept will be surpassed and I suggest you read the article that Glenn1 posted.

As money and power are the economic mandates we become redundant- no, actual liabilities when it comes to employment. A few will find niche employment but that's about it and that is not secure.

You and everyone you have ever known or has ever lived cannot compete with a qualitatively superior species, carbon-based or otherwise.

That means long-range planning on controlling economies based on different paradigms before a Butlerian Jihad or effective replacement by "better" creatures.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm not a big fan when it comes to government intervention. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. Why? Because the government doesn't have your best interest. Only you can have that for yourself. So, if your IQ is adequate and you can learn rapidly then its on you. If you have mental health problems then the government should be involved for that person's welfare.

Oh..., an "each man an island" and "bootstraps" poster.

Yes, our social and economic environment allows some people to get ahead. Is your suggestion that everyone be the top 1%? Let's extend that to 10%. Is it a mental health problem to not be the top 3 people in your class? Besides "get smart", what is your plan for the rest of society? May I remind you, the middle class is shrinking. Priced out, because their labor is being devalued.

I mean, it sounds to me like you are telling us to eat cake. Smart as you might claim to be, are you calling for a french revolution?

Do not let fear / hate of the "government" boogieman stop you from seeing the truth. "Doesn't have your best interest", what, and corporations do? Does your employer look out for you? Please, it's fearmongering plain and simple. If we expanded our social safety net to actually provide suitable sustenance then THAT would be our best interests.

I'm not a big fan of leaving people behind, of letting predatory capitalism prey on and cannibalize our people. We can fix it by striking a balance between public and private funding. We do not have to neglect people for failing to be your sister.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh..., an "each man an island" and "bootstraps" poster.

Yes, our social and economic environment allows some people to get ahead. Is your suggestion that everyone be the top 1%? Let's extend that to 10%. Is it a mental health problem to not be the top 3 people in your class? Besides "get smart", what is your plan for the rest of society? May I remind you, the middle class is shrinking. Priced out, because their labor is being devalued.

I mean, it sounds to me like you are telling us to eat cake. Smart as you might claim to be, are you calling for a french revolution?

Do not let fear / hate of the "government" boogieman stop you from seeing the truth. "Doesn't have your best interest", what, and corporations do? Does your employer look out for you? Please, it's fearmongering plain and simple. If we expanded our social safety net to actually provide suitable sustenance then THAT would be our best interests.

I'm not a big fan of leaving people behind, of letting predatory capitalism prey on and cannibalize our people. We can fix it by striking a balance between public and private funding. We do not have to neglect people for failing to be your sister.

Intelligence is not a causal factor in wealth and power above what passes for "normal". It's a matter of some combination of ambition, luck, aggressiveness, and mimicry. Being a sociopath is helpful (Not required, but a plus and this isn't a joke). The biggest advantage is being born rich, like Trump, which allows him to fail consistently and maintain a fortune.

In my family being one in a hundred thousand in intelligence isn't unknown by any means and only one is wealthy by modern standards. Why? Because they know that beyond a certain degree of wealth there is a point of diminishing returns and are as happy fishing from a canoe as a yacht. Instead, they follow pursuits that may not yield a dime, but they are productive. Happiness is a better goal than wealth assuming that needs are met. For some like the Trumps of the world, can't be constructively happy. They need to not only "win" but make others lose to preserve their ego. Thank god no one I care about suffers from that illness.

Those I worry more about than lower than AGT machine intelligence. They must possess far more at the resultant cost to others than is good for any society.

 

[Greenman]

No it won't. The biggest predictor of successful employment is intelligence. Intelligence equates to rapid acquisition and the adroit use of task proficiency. What is the aim of AI and robotics?

It took billions of years of organic evolution to produce an intelligent and technological being. In the short time since the invention of the transistor we have already created machine intelligence that out class the most skilled people in many intellectual tasks. What happens when the machines start designing themselves? I don't think we have any idea.

Has a machine ever demonstrated any creativity? I honestly don't know.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's a long article but definitely worth reading. One of the best written pieces (and suitable for laypeople) I've read on the subject of AI and how it will impact humanity.

Thank you. That is a great article.

So, uhh, when does DeepMind have AlphaZero play the stock market?

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh..., an "each man an island" and "bootstraps" poster.

Yes, our social and economic environment allows some people to get ahead. Is your suggestion that everyone be the top 1%? Let's extend that to 10%. Is it a mental health problem to not be the top 3 people in your class? Besides "get smart", what is your plan for the rest of society? May I remind you, the middle class is shrinking. Priced out, because their labor is being devalued.

I mean, it sounds to me like you are telling us to eat cake. Smart as you might claim to be, are you calling for a french revolution?

Do not let fear / hate of the "government" boogieman stop you from seeing the truth. "Doesn't have your best interest", what, and corporations do? Does your employer look out for you? Please, it's fearmongering plain and simple. If we expanded our social safety net to actually provide suitable sustenance then THAT would be our best interests.

I'm not a big fan of leaving people behind, of letting predatory capitalism prey on and cannibalize our people. We can fix it by striking a balance between public and private funding. We do not have to neglect people for failing to be your sister.

The standard Trumpster believes in all the things Mai 72 believes in except it's not working for them very well. It works great all the way around for the people exploiting them, however.

 

[Moonbeam]

Has a machine ever demonstrated any creativity? I honestly don't know.

I don't know either. I have read that an AI playing Starcraft can mount strategies and win against the best players by methods the players have never seen.

 

[Greenman]

I don't know either. I have read that an AI playing Starcraft can mount strategies and win against the best players by methods the players have never seen.

It seems to me that everything a computer does always boils down to "if, then, else". But I don't really know anything about it.

 

[Ken g6]

The Finnish experiment so far has yielded the same negative results the US's attempty in the 70's: https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/02...l-basic-income-weve-already-seen-doesnt-work/

No, it didn't. The Finnish experiment showed no increase in employment, but it also showed no decrease in employment.

 

[Jhhnn]

I like the idea of basic income. It lets the lazy & feckless people get out of the way of people who want to do something.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Has a machine ever demonstrated any creativity? I honestly don't know.

https://www.ibm.com/watson/advantage-reports/future-of-artificial-intelligence/ai-creativity.html

I dont think ai is there yet, maybe someday.

 

[glenn1]

Thank you. That is a great article.

So, uhh, when does DeepMind have AlphaZero play the stock market?

The one deficiency in it that I wished it addressed is what happens if we do program the superintelligent AI so that it's "friendly," what will be the results of constraining a machine thousands of times smarter than humans in the service of humans? Imagine Einstein if he had DNA (core programming) developed by dogs that meant instead of developing the Theory of Relativity, etc. he would be obliged to do things to better the lives of dogs. Instead of coming up with E=MC2 he'd have spent his life thinking of better ways for Fido to hump a leg.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

AI will one day Design Robots that are then built by other Robots. Other Robots will perform Maintenance of Robots. Humans will pursue Hobbies/Interests, but Labour for Money will not be part of their lives. There will be some exceptions, Artists and Inventors for eg,

I think there is the potential of some very negative consequences of this though. There will be no need for Billions of People, Elites may use that to justify atrocity. Another risk might be that Religions or Social Movements may turn extreme and/or violent due to massive groups of People simply having nothing better to do. We really need to improve our Ethics and Social Institutions in order to transition to this future.

I really worry about that when it comes.

Men by our very nature want to have a purpose. We want to feel useful. If all that is left to do is to enjoy/pursue hobbies, I can honestly see a lot of guys going nuts. I mean just imagine not having to work and not having to provide for your family anymore, seems pretty depressing to me.

Also, with not much else to do - it's pretty widely accepted that those without busy lives are much more likely to produce offspring. The number of people might skyrocket, no? If you don't have the responsibilities of providing for your family, what else is there really to do other than have some hobbies and fuck?