Finishing Basement...possible oops with contractor.

[DrPizza]

Yes, upgrading your service from 100 to 150 amp - that sounds reasonable. And, no, it's not reasonable to expect the contractor to eat that cost. I'm not saying that it's absolutely necessary to do so though - that's up to the inspector.

 

[JEDI]

If the only difference is a 150A box instead of a 100A box, I don't see how it would increase the price by more than about $25. All of the labor is the same; the only difference is the price of the box. And, those boxes aren't really that expensive. $1500 difference? That's utterly ridiculous. I also cannot fathom how a 100A panel isn't sufficient for a refinished basement. Hell, there are still a lot of older houses that have 100A service - for the entire house.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...eyword=150+amp+electrical+panel&storeId=10051
$129 for the panel.

cant u just change out the main breaker from 100A to 150A?
it's not like your're going for a heavy up to 400A and need new wires from the power company.
household tranmission lines are good for 200A. well.. depending on when your house was built

 

[Imp]

If you have a contract, check contract, but unless you're willing to get a lawyer, try not to go down this route to the dot.

Negotiate and be fair, take some time for both to think about it. Sounds like an honest "omission" and any other contractor would have required that work to be done to do whatever he's doing anyways.

Even with high stakes construction contracts, there are clauses to make change orders, extra work, and additional work. It's only when one party stands their ground without waivering that shit hits the fan.

 

[13Gigatons]

We had 50 amps and went to 100 amps. We had the option to go to 200 amps but did not need it.

What is in your house that needs more then 100 amps?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Let me say that the contractor we are using is very nice and highly recommended, I've seen his work and all is good.

OK..the problem: found out today from the electrician that the electrical inspector may require a larger electrical panel...100A is not big enough and he is thinking 150A.

I did a little googling and it may be an additional $1500-$2000.

Have not heard back from the contractor yet, but should it have been his responsibility to catch that during the quoting phase?

Get a 200 watt service stop goofing off. The cost your talking is stupid . Look the utility company will hook the main power to the new box mains . Everthing else in can do yourself . There is 3 wires to hook to . One copper 1 white one black its very easy . Of course you will have 1 4 wire 220 hook ups but that 1 more wire its easy . Just be sure to shut off the mains first. This job should cost no more than $300. So they want to make $1500 dollars for 3 hours work LOL.

 

[Nemesis 1]

We had 50 amps and went to 100 amps. We had the option to go to 200 amps but did not need it.

What is in your house that needs more then 100 amps?

When I added my addition we removed the old 1 wire post setup 60 amps with a 200watt. service. I new I didn't need 200 amp service for house But I also new I was going to build a garage unattached to the house . When I did build I put 100 amp service in garage from my house 200 watt service.

 

[jagec]

Get a 200 watt service stop goofing off. The cost your talking is stupid . Look the utility company will hook the main power to the new box mains . Everthing else in can do yourself . There is 3 wires to hook to . One copper 1 white one black its very easy . Of course you will have 1 4 wire 220 hook ups but that 1 more wire its easy . Just be sure to shut off the mains first. This job should cost no more than $300. So they want to make $1500 dollars for 3 hours work LOL.

The extra $1200 is the cost of hiring someone who knows the difference between watts and amps.

 

[BoomerD]

The extra $1200 is the cost of hiring someone who knows the difference between watts and amps.

 

[Greenman]

Once again, OT fails miserably at construction advice.

First, do a load calculation for your house. The process is all laid out in the UBC. That will decide if a new service is required. The building inspector has to accept the results of the load calc, it doesn't matter if he likes it or not.
If you end up having to replace the service, be sure to talk to your utility provider, they may have to hang new feeders and there is generally cost involved.

 

[Greenman]

Get a 200 watt service stop goofing off. The cost your talking is stupid . Look the utility company will hook the main power to the new box mains . Everthing else in can do yourself . There is 3 wires to hook to . One copper 1 white one black its very easy . Of course you will have 1 4 wire 220 hook ups but that 1 more wire its easy . Just be sure to shut off the mains first. This job should cost no more than $300. So they want to make $1500 dollars for 3 hours work LOL.

There are 3 conductors and a ground to hook up. That's four wires.
$300 won't buy all the parts for a new service, and the fellow that does the work will probably want to get paid for his efforts.

Almost forgot, that 2 amp service you're recommending isn't going to work.

 

[DrPizza]

Also, and Greenman can probably chime in better on this, if you're replacing the main panel, you may need to upgrade your breakers as well to gfi, or arc fault breakers. Instead of $5 per breaker, you're looking at $35 per breaker. 20 circuits, and that adds on $600 to the cost.

 

[Humpy]

Once again, OT fails miserably at construction advice.

First, do a load calculation for your house. The process is all laid out in the UBC. That will decide if a new service is required. The building inspector has to accept the results of the load calc, it doesn't matter if he likes it or not.
If you end up having to replace the service, be sure to talk to your utility provider, they may have to hang new feeders and there is generally cost involved.

Any construction advice will fail if it is based on a couple of internet posts from a typical homeowner hoping to get free shit.

Since this is about electricity, Article 220 of the NEC is where to look for load calculations. The UBC hasn't been published since 1997. I don't know what this has to do with anything though, the electrician would already know this and the inspector won't accept squat from the OP.

 

[Greenman]

I think the point was that the OP could figure out if the new service was even necessary. Though if he's an owner/builder many building departments will accept his calcs, all of the necessary information should be on the plans.

I've always said UBC or just "building code". Though I didn't realize that 97 was the last published year. I use a few different condensed versions that are residential specific. Though even that is getting hard to keep up with, the plans laying on my desk right now call out no less than ten different codes and standards that must be adhered too, and those plans are for a 250 foot addition.


To the OP. There are several free excel sheets for doing the load calc. It's fairly straight forward once you get the hang of it. I have one that's given away by the city of Nappervill of all places.

 

[GrumpyMan]

I would just get candles and have flash light hand puppets for entertainment in the basement and call it a day...or night.

 

[Doppel]

I don't think you read my post correctly.

We HAVE a 100A Panel, they are talking about replacing it with a 150A Panel.

Almost nobody read your post, unfortunately

Anyway this sucks but ultimately if is error is not costing you 2k that could have been saved IF he had noted it earlier, you should certainly pay. Is a surprise 2k really all that much worse than 2k extra originally? Because if you always were going to have to do the 2k anyway but only found out about it now, well that sucks but that's life and a huge burden for the contractor to swallow.

I would be less forgiving with a formal contract between two businesses, but the semi informality of a home remodel I think it is ok.

 

[jagec]

We had 50 amps and went to 100 amps. We had the option to go to 200 amps but did not need it.

What is in your house that needs more then 100 amps?

A better question is how you were able to deal with a 50-amp main breaker. Did you have a single outlet for all your major appliances so that you didn't accidentally try to run more than one at a time?

I have 200 amp service in my (small) house. Now, I think that it's overkill, but this way if someone is taking a shower (water heater, 5 kW), the AC is on (3 kW), and I put a load of laundry in the dryer (5 kW), I don't have to worry about everything going dark suddenly.

 

[AlienCraft]

This Service Upgrade requirement when other work is being done is typical.A trip to the planning / permit people prior to this would have been prudent as one might have been told outright what their policy would be. I'm with the Negotiate the Change Order crowd. Hopefully they won't make you upgrade all the bedroom circuits to arc-faults.

 

[13Gigatons]

A better question is how you were able to deal with a 50-amp main breaker. Did you have a single outlet for all your major appliances so that you didn't accidentally try to run more than one at a time?

I have 200 amp service in my (small) house. Now, I think that it's overkill, but this way if someone is taking a shower (water heater, 5 kW), the AC is on (3 kW), and I put a load of laundry in the dryer (5 kW), I don't have to worry about everything going dark suddenly.

Gas Furnace, Gas Water Heater, Gas Stove, Gas dryer. We added Central Air so an upgrade was required. Our neighbors have a large pool and hot tub so I'm sure they have a real need for 200 amps.

 

[jaha2000]

How was the estimate written? Was it not to exceed? (doubtful).
Generally speaking this is one of those things that come up when doing a remodel. Should it have been caught? Probably.
Lets say your doing an upstairs pluming job in an older home. Are you going to let the guy estimating cut into the wall to see if you have cast drain lines? Are you going to stick him with the bill when he gets in there and says hey, its going to cost 2k to replace all this stuff because its rotten?
1.5 to 2k is not out of the realm for a service upgrade...
Have you looked at the price 2/0 copper wire?
That was about how much mine cost...
Wire from mast to meter socket, the meter socket and meter were free from the utility, wire from meter socket to panel. New 200 amp panel. Permit for install, line permit from the utility, final inspection...

 

[jupiter57]

After spending 30+ years in the business, I'm going to take a wild guess here:
Once the price was agreed to & work commenced, did you, by chance, ask for additional Electrical devices, lighting, etc., which necessitates the need for a higher rated panel?

I have never, & I mean never, done a job in which the owner did not add or change items as the job progressed (And always complain when you state that the cost will be higher!).

Just tell us, did you change anything Electrical?
If so, then you are solely responsible for any additional costs to upgrade any Electrical components required to accommodate said additions.

However, if the Contractor gave you a price & you have changed nothing Electrical, then he should be held liable for costs incurred for missing the required upgrade.

 

[wirednuts]

the contractor probably oversized your basement panel, because i think the inspector is right for wanting the sub panel to be smaller then the main panel it is fed from.

at this point though, the best solution is to ask the inspector if it would be OK to replace the 100a breaker in the basement with 60a. talk with your electrician to make sure it would work in your situation, but my guess would be 60a is more then enough. thats like a $30 part, and a 5min install. that way you dont have to get mad at the contractor for trying to give you more then you needed.