Finally going to start carrying.

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: senseamp
If guns really prevented millions of rapes, murders and robberies a year, wouldn't we have much lower prevalence of those crimes per capita than countries with stricter gun controls? I am sure guns prevent some of those crimes, but not millions, and they are also used in those crimes as well.

To me, this is the million dollar question. :thumbsup:

 

[johnjohn320]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

Are you statistically more likely to save your own ass with the use of a gun than injuring a loved on?

Your statement is either a play on statistics or pure bullshit. Guns are used millions of times a year to prevent rape, murder, robbery etc.. without EVER FIRING A SHOT. People with CCL statistically NEVER commit gun/violent crimes or even felonies. Very FEW (statistically almost 0) people are killed a year in accidental shootings.

If your worried about accidents you should devote your time to swimming pools. They are far deadlier than a gun in the hands of a person with a CCL (or their homes etc.).

900 a yearin the United States. First link that popped up. Course, I guess you'll say it's a bullshit statistic and make up another one of your own to counter it.

Oh, and swimming pools that you're so scared of? 625 a year in the United States.

Do you think before you post?

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: senseamp
If guns really prevented millions of rapes, murders and robberies a year, wouldn't we have much lower prevalence of those crimes per capita than countries with stricter gun controls? I am sure guns prevent some of those crimes, but not millions, and they are also used in those crimes as well.

I have never understood why people think there is that strong of a relationship between a physical object (gun) and the reason we have a high crime rate in this country. Do you think the criminals would be like "Wow, there is a gun. Now I can go rape someone"?

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

Are you statistically more likely to save your own ass with the use of a gun than injuring a loved on?

Your statement is either a play on statistics or pure bullshit. Guns are used millions of times a year to prevent rape, murder, robbery etc.. without EVER FIRING A SHOT. People with CCL statistically NEVER commit gun/violent crimes or even felonies. Very FEW (statistically almost 0) people are killed a year in accidental shootings.

If your worried about accidents you should devote your time to swimming pools. They are far deadlier than a gun in the hands of a person with a CCL (or their homes etc.).

All I have to go on is my wife's 15 years of police dept. experience, where she would have to go to a family shooting 2-3 times a week and deal with shot girlfriends, kids, dogs, relatives, neighbors....you name it. Twice in her 15 years did she go to a call where someone actually scared someone away with a gun they owned legally (one was a burglary, the other was an attack outside of a bar).

It still breaks my heart when I think about a 5 year old boy back in 2002 that took a .338 out of his dad's suit coat that was hanging on a kitchen chair and shot his 2 year old sister. This guy was licensed to carry it, and the moron decided he needed a gun at a wedding he went to...then forgot to put it away when he got home.

You can do what you want...it's a free country, but when you give someone the ability to carry around a device that you can simply point at someone and take their life, I firmly believe it's too much of a resonsibility and there's no need for it. Guns for sport- fine. Guns for hunting- fine. Guns for protection- they do more harm than good.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: johnjohn320

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

Are you statistically more likely to save your own ass with the use of a gun than injuring a loved on?

Your statement is either a play on statistics or pure bullshit. Guns are used millions of times a year to prevent rape, murder, robbery etc.. without EVER FIRING A SHOT. People with CCL statistically NEVER commit gun/violent crimes or even felonies. Very FEW (statistically almost 0) people are killed a year in accidental shootings.

If your worried about accidents you should devote your time to swimming pools. They are far deadlier than a gun in the hands of a person with a CCL (or their homes etc.).

900 a yearin the United States. First link that popped up. Course, I guess you'll say it's a bullshit statistic and make up another one of your own to counter it.

Oh, and swimming pools that you're so scared of? 625 a year in the United States.

Do you think before you post?

First of all, your two links contradict each other. Secondly, have fun with this. All sources are listed so you are free to check them yourself.

"In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11
times as many children die from drowning.186
Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is
nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times
for ages 0-5.187"

http://gunfacts.info/

click the screen version

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: johnjohn320

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

Are you statistically more likely to save your own ass with the use of a gun than injuring a loved on?

Your statement is either a play on statistics or pure bullshit. Guns are used millions of times a year to prevent rape, murder, robbery etc.. without EVER FIRING A SHOT. People with CCL statistically NEVER commit gun/violent crimes or even felonies. Very FEW (statistically almost 0) people are killed a year in accidental shootings.

If your worried about accidents you should devote your time to swimming pools. They are far deadlier than a gun in the hands of a person with a CCL (or their homes etc.).

900 a yearin the United States. First link that popped up. Course, I guess you'll say it's a bullshit statistic and make up another one of your own to counter it.

Oh, and swimming pools that you're so scared of? 625 a year in the United States.

Do you think before you post?

First of all, your two links contradict each other. Secondly, have fun with this. All sources are listed so you are free to check them yourself.

"In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11
times as many children die from drowning.186
Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is
nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times
for ages 0-5.187"

http://gunfacts.info/

click the screen version

Why would somebody argue statistics on the pro-gun side? I think it's pretty universally established that statistics are NOT in your favor when it comes to what the weapon will ultimately be used for.

I don't think there's any question that statistically there are greater dangers than carrying a firearm (swimming pools, beestings, deer). That's why in my post I said that I wasn't going to march in the streets in protest. I can still make the choice not to have one myself, and be reasonably certain that I'm doing myself and my family a favor.

 

[johnjohn320]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: johnjohn320

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

Are you statistically more likely to save your own ass with the use of a gun than injuring a loved on?

Your statement is either a play on statistics or pure bullshit. Guns are used millions of times a year to prevent rape, murder, robbery etc.. without EVER FIRING A SHOT. People with CCL statistically NEVER commit gun/violent crimes or even felonies. Very FEW (statistically almost 0) people are killed a year in accidental shootings.

If your worried about accidents you should devote your time to swimming pools. They are far deadlier than a gun in the hands of a person with a CCL (or their homes etc.).

900 a yearin the United States. First link that popped up. Course, I guess you'll say it's a bullshit statistic and make up another one of your own to counter it.

Oh, and swimming pools that you're so scared of? 625 a year in the United States.

Do you think before you post?

First of all, your two links contradict each other. Secondly, have fun with this. All sources are listed so you are free to check them yourself.

"In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11
times as many children die from drowning.186
Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is
nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times
for ages 0-5.187"

http://gunfacts.info/

click the screen version

K, don't see how my links contradict each other, since one deals with gun deaths and the other accdiental drowning? But whatever.

Second off, I went to Harvard Magazine and the National Safety Council. You went to "GunFacts.info". Even the look of that website is laughable.

Third, you wanna talk about manipulating stats? Holy hell. I talk about gun deaths being far more prominent than "next to 0" as you stated, and you say "well c'mon, look at this one year where only some of them were little kids!" as though that proves your point. Your pool stats do the same thing: look at one small portion of the population, namely kids, who are far more likely to go swimming sometime in their lives than be around guns in the first place, and say "see, lookie here! Pools are more deadly!"

Ridiculous.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: amjohns5
I don't think that gun laws should be legal. i'm afraid that I would have to much power in my hands, and I don't want that kind of pressure.

So don't carry and leave the responsibility to someone else more confident and qualified. You're not being forced to get a CCW.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
I guess I don't understand why pontifex or others are irritated by the anti-gun posts? This is ATOT, so naturally you can expect this kind of thing. If you want praise all around, then I'm sure that Soldier of Fortune has a forum out there. Debate and discussion is good for everybody.

Personally, I'm in a weird position lately where I'm pro-gun ownership, and anti-concealed weapons. This is a combination of personal/political ideology and common sense. I think that the citizens of a country should be armed should they ever need to rise up against an unjust government. That of course is a moot point now, as most of the armed citizenry of this country have proven that they're easily manipulated with secondary religious/social issues while those they elect are treading on those freedoms they supposedly cherish. I also think it's impossible to ignore the statistics behind carrying weapons, which others have pointed out. I'm not going to march in the streets protesting concealed weapons or anything, but there's no denying that those people are a danger to themselves and others (specifically their families). They obviously don't feel that way, but that's the false sense of power that a firearm grants you.

Finally I couldn't agree more with JulesMaximus, pointing out that it takes a cynical and fearful mindset to feel the need to carry. Hell, maybe that .001% chance that you could need it someday makes it completely worth carrying - that's obviously a subjective interpretation. For me though, I don't want to live my life in that kind of fear, or allow myself to hold the people around me in such low regard. I may be wrong, but I'll err on the side of warm and fuzzy. I have good friends who are the exact opposite of me on this issue and carry everywhere they go. All of them are paranoid, hold their countrymen in very low regard, and have hero complexes (that they don't admit to in public). I sure as hell don't feel safer knowing that they are carrying.

well, a) they're always the same posts. no deviation whatsoever and b) they're so full of BS its almost funny in a sad pathetic sort of way.

I don't live in fear. i've gone 27 years without carrying. I also don't want to be a hero. i want the ability to defend myself and my family in case i need to.

it's the same reason you have spare tire or carry a tool kit in your car. are you going to need it? most likely no, but it sure is helpful to have when you do need it.

i don't know where you guys get the idea that anyone who owns a gun is a psycopath who wants to be a hero or rambo going out guns blazing or who just wants to kill people. i guess its from the brainwashing of the anti-gun media over the years.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: senseamp
If guns really prevented millions of rapes, murders and robberies a year, wouldn't we have much lower prevalence of those crimes per capita than countries with stricter gun controls? I am sure guns prevent some of those crimes, but not millions, and they are also used in those crimes as well.

I have never understood why people think there is that strong of a relationship between a physical object (gun) and the reason we have a high crime rate in this country. Do you think the criminals would be like "Wow, there is a gun. Now I can go rape someone"?

Maybe not so much rape, even though rapes at gunpoint do happen, but robbery yes, and while they are at it, if things go wrong, maybe murder.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
I guess I don't understand why pontifex or others are irritated by the anti-gun posts? This is ATOT, so naturally you can expect this kind of thing. If you want praise all around, then I'm sure that Soldier of Fortune has a forum out there. Debate and discussion is good for everybody.

Personally, I'm in a weird position lately where I'm pro-gun ownership, and anti-concealed weapons. This is a combination of personal/political ideology and common sense. I think that the citizens of a country should be armed should they ever need to rise up against an unjust government. That of course is a moot point now, as most of the armed citizenry of this country have proven that they're easily manipulated with secondary religious/social issues while those they elect are treading on those freedoms they supposedly cherish. I also think it's impossible to ignore the statistics behind carrying weapons, which others have pointed out. I'm not going to march in the streets protesting concealed weapons or anything, but there's no denying that those people are a danger to themselves and others (specifically their families). They obviously don't feel that way, but that's the false sense of power that a firearm grants you.

Finally I couldn't agree more with JulesMaximus, pointing out that it takes a cynical and fearful mindset to feel the need to carry. Hell, maybe that .001% chance that you could need it someday makes it completely worth carrying - that's obviously a subjective interpretation. For me though, I don't want to live my life in that kind of fear, or allow myself to hold the people around me in such low regard. I may be wrong, but I'll err on the side of warm and fuzzy. I have good friends who are the exact opposite of me on this issue and carry everywhere they go. All of them are paranoid, hold their countrymen in very low regard, and have hero complexes (that they don't admit to in public). I sure as hell don't feel safer knowing that they are carrying.

well, a) they're always the same posts. no deviation whatsoever and b) they're so full of BS its almost funny in a sad pathetic sort of way.

I don't live in fear. i've gone 27 years without carrying. I also don't want to be a hero. i want the ability to defend myself and my family in case i need to.

it's the same reason you have spare tire or carry a tool kit in your car. are you going to need it? most likely no, but it sure is helpful to have when you do need it.

Most people have actually replaced a flat tire or will need to eventually since it's not an uncommon occurrence, which is why we carry one. Most of us have not had to shoot someone to defend ourselves and probably never will. There is no comparison between the two.

i don't know where you guys get the idea that anyone who owns a gun is a psycopath who wants to be a hero or rambo going out guns blazing or who just wants to kill people. i guess its from the brainwashing of the anti-gun media over the years.

Not psychopath who wants to be a hero or Rambo, but someone living in a ghetto or dealing with some serious fear issues if they feel the need to carry a gun on themselves on a daily basis. I can see people who have specific threats or elevated risk against them carrying a gun for self defense, maybe women who have someone stalking them, pawn shop operators, etc. But if an average guy in his right mind feels the need to carry a gun to defend himself, that is an ineffective individual solution to a much bigger societal problem that should be addressed directly.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Kazaam
so going to the mall and buying gifts and anything else you need is not using common sense and avoiding trouble? i wouldnt ever carry a gun but it definitely seems places that were safe no longer are.

I've yet to see a gun fight at the mall. Honestly, what are the odds on that anyway considering I spend maybe 2-3 hours a year at the mall? In fact, I've yet to read a story about a shooting at the mall that I "frequent." Hell, even if you lived there you'd probably never be exposed to gunfire.

I'm not saying that things don't happen but the odds really are in your favor and the likeliness of you doing something positive with your gun while armed are slim to none. Not to mention the huge responsibility of carrying a gun to begin with. I'm not entirely convinced that that's something CCW holders really grasp.

Again, living in fear isn't part of my life.

And yet all statistics prove beyond a doubt exactly the opposite.

 

[warmodder]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Kazaam
so going to the mall and buying gifts and anything else you need is not using common sense and avoiding trouble? i wouldnt ever carry a gun but it definitely seems places that were safe no longer are.

I've yet to see a gun fight at the mall. Honestly, what are the odds on that anyway considering I spend maybe 2-3 hours a year at the mall? In fact, I've yet to read a story about a shooting at the mall that I "frequent." Hell, even if you lived there you'd probably never be exposed to gunfire.

I'm not saying that things don't happen but the odds really are in your favor and the likeliness of you doing something positive with your gun while armed are slim to none. Not to mention the huge responsibility of carrying a gun to begin with. I'm not entirely convinced that that's something CCW holders really grasp.

Again, living in fear isn't part of my life.

And yet all statistics prove beyond a doubt exactly the opposite.

What positive externalities could possibly come out of carrying a gun? Does your model shoot candy canes and snowflakes? Yes in very slim circumstances you may be able to save some lives, but not many will be placed in that situation. The chance for negatives--be them by mistake, on purpose, whatever--is infinitely greater than you being in a position to cause a benefit.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Excelsior
Jesus christ people

Omaha, NE wasn't supposed to be dangerous. But some nutjob shot up a mall.

Blacksburg, VA was a quiet relatively low crime college town until another nutter shot and killed some 30 people, all unarmed (of course).

One doesn't have to live in a so called "dangerous' place for freaky shit to happen

Despite not owning a gun myself, I am in full support of people having the right to concealed carry, given training.

It only takes one trained individual who happens to be in the right place in the right time to stop or cut short a massacre. While there are admittedly chances that innocents could get caught in the crossfire, *most* permit holders are intelligent enough to identify good and bad situations, and wait for an opportunity with high probability to disable or kill a target with minimal collateral damage.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: SandInMyShoes
The attitude of "odds are you'll never need a sidearm, why carry?" really bothers me. Every day, across the country, crimes happen in places that people least expect it. If something happens in a relatively safe place, often the victims are all unarmed. Nobody thought anything would happen at Virginia Tech, but a tragedy happened. Nobody thought anything would happen at the mall in Omaha, NE, but there was a massacre there. What if shoppers at the mall, or students at VT (had they been allowed) were carrying concealed guns? Both of those tragedies may have turned out completely different.

I'm not old enough to get a CCW permit now, but when I am in a couple years, I may get one... not because I live in fear of everyone around me, I don't. I doubt I will ever need to use a handgun for self defense, and I hope I don't... but if just a small percent of the population (say 5%?) regularly carried firearms, I think that most shooting rampages would be snuffed out before the deaths reach into the double digits. Why SHOULDN'T I arm myself, like I think others should?

Lets take this mall incident for example. You would either be dead because things happened so fast or you would be running for your life trying to get hell out of there. Your gun would be useless.

If I come up to you and stick a gun to your back and say give me your wallet, what are you going to do?? Most people can say they will do things on the internet but when the time comes people will hand over everything they have or run. You can arm yourself all you want but statistics prove that a gun owner is more likely to die from his own gun then by a robber killing him.

Actually they prove entirely the opposite. There are many times more defensive gun uses per year that go correctly than those that cause incident.

People always offer false dichotomies when setting up scenerios to prove that having a gun is useless. There are multiple options and having a gun merely offers a few more.

For instance, if I don't have my gun on me (a VERY rare thing) and someone robs me at gun point not only do I turn over whatever they want, but I get the hell out of the area after it happens. This means they probably will not be caught, and probably will do it to other people (this is statistically proven). Now imagine that I have my gun with me in that scenerio. Obviously the odds of having an opportunity to draw it to prevent the crime are very slim (though it is possible), however I would be able to take subsequent actions that would result in getting my wallet back and probably stopping the criminal from doing it again. If I was armed I could feel fairly safe in pursuing the suspect while in communication with 911. If things turned sour then I'd have a weapon in hand and I'd have the initiative and therefore the advantage.

So it's not about absolutes, it's about possibilities.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: thepd7
The ignorance is strong in this thread.

If any CCL holder tried to pull a gun while a mugger had a gun to the back of their heads then they are morons and are going to get shot. NO ONE here is saying pull a gun on someone who has the drop on you, at least no one reasonable.

There are quite a few cases where someone with a CCL has either given their life and helped save many others or taken out the threat. Wiki the Tyler courthouse shooting. Or the example I just used with the religious organizations in Colorado. In both instances the CCL holders saved many lives, and one brave man gave his life.

The funny thing is the people being ignorant here are the ones who think that anyone who would possibly carry a concealed weapon is a cowboy or lives in a small town. They have obviously not met a responsible gun owner nor have they actually dealt with firearms for an extended period of time.

Generalization ftw.

"The funny thing is the people being ignorant"

"They have obviously not met "

GENERALIZATION FOR THE FUCKING WIN.

Yeah, someone who doesn't share YOUR opinion is obviously ignorant or automatically thinks everyone is a cowboy.

It's called a hypocrite. Look it up asshole.

Ok, so a guy in a mall opens fire with an AK. How many CCL's should pull their weapon and fire at the perp in a public place with innocent people walking around. Who decides to take the shot? How many of them take a single shot? Who hits first and where do the stray bullets go. Who says you're a great marksman? Are you trained to know when/where and how good of a shot you are? Should everyone around trust in you or someone else to take a shot and do the right thing in the right situation?

People are going to die anyway, PERIOD. You wanna die like a lemming, or go down fighting? The death is an absolute. It's a given. It's a sunk cost. Accept it. Now decide if it's worth trying to fight.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Just a little addition. If I didn't have a carry permit I would be dead right now, instead of some hopped up, waste-of-space druggie. I've never had to use force since then, but if I hadn't been carrying, I wouldn't be here at all. Screw your statistics and your "feel-good" beliefs.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: destrekor

concealed carry normally required classes and training.
in the states where you can get a permit without classes and training.. well, that's wrong. There should be proper training, I definitely agree. But that's only a problem with the method of issuing permits. Don't block the possibility of getting a permit just because some jurisdictions hand them out like candy. Change the methods.

I was going to answer that point and then realized that I'm actually not certain how many states have that requirement now. I know Washington doesn't, and Oregon does. After that I'm not sure. Anyone know for certain how many states require a certification class of some type?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Do you have any common sense at all? Chances are if a madman with AK starts shooting in a mall people will be running away, not toward him. So if there are any CCL's around most likely they will have a clean shot at him without any bystanders around.

LikeLinus' point is irrelevent anyway. Would you rather the AKman be shooting the place up with no resistance or have a CCL take a chance at bringing him down?

Geeze, thats a tough one. :roll:

Geeze, here's a tough one...show me one mall that doesn't have armed security or security vehicles covering the lot.

I can't say I've ever been to a Mall that didn't have off duty police officers patroling the lot. Not to mention they increased force during the holiday season.

No mall in my area has armed officers, except occasionally during increased patrols like the weekend before Christmas.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: pontifex
why is it that when someone posts a thread about guns, 99.9% of the replies are the same old bullshit? and this is for both sides, not just the anti-gun people. no one ever comes up with new material.

and it doesn't matter if the thread is about carrying concealed or just someone showing off their new purchase.

Because there IS nothing new. Things don't actually change, people just refuse to actually study and listen/learn to what is already there.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

An absolute lie, proven many many times to be wholly false. In fact the exact opposite has been absolutely proven to be true. I wish people would quit with this ignorant crap.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: pontifex
why is it that when someone posts a thread about guns, 99.9% of the replies are the same old bullshit? and this is for both sides, not just the anti-gun people. no one ever comes up with new material.

and it doesn't matter if the thread is about carrying concealed or just someone showing off their new purchase.

Because there IS nothing new. Things don't actually change, people just refuse to actually study and listen/learn to what is already there.

then why keep bringing it up? its obviously not going to sway a gun owner into thinking "oh shit! i'm wrong! gotta sell these guns asap!" so why bother?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: johnjohn320

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
What kind of handgun/holster/belt? I have a number of different handguns and some fine leather holsters for them. Of course, I can't carry legally where I live, but that doesn't stop me from being prepared.

Kind of sucks to live somewhere that the government doesn't trust you enough, doesn't it? How can you be prepared when the people you run into that are going to cause you trouble are actually carrying a gun because they don't care what the law says? Nice false sense of security you live under. Being prepared in your case means either staying home or avoiding all areas where you might run into a problem. Unfortunately that could be just about anywhere these days.

You know, statistically, you're more likely to kill a loved one with the gun you own than someone trying to harm you.

Plus, if you do shoot someone that's trying to harm you in some way, only a fraction of those incidents involve "bodily" harm, so deadly force would be unwarranted. If you shot or killed someone in that circumstance, you'd be charged with manslaughter and get prison time.

I agree with the fact that if you're in an area where you feel so scared that you need to carry a gun for protection, you're not in the right area. There really aren't many places like this in the US.

Are you statistically more likely to save your own ass with the use of a gun than injuring a loved on?

Your statement is either a play on statistics or pure bullshit. Guns are used millions of times a year to prevent rape, murder, robbery etc.. without EVER FIRING A SHOT. People with CCL statistically NEVER commit gun/violent crimes or even felonies. Very FEW (statistically almost 0) people are killed a year in accidental shootings.

If your worried about accidents you should devote your time to swimming pools. They are far deadlier than a gun in the hands of a person with a CCL (or their homes etc.).

900 a yearin the United States. First link that popped up. Course, I guess you'll say it's a bullshit statistic and make up another one of your own to counter it.

Oh, and swimming pools that you're so scared of? 625 a year in the United States.

Do you think before you post?

First of all, your two links contradict each other. Secondly, have fun with this. All sources are listed so you are free to check them yourself.

"In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11
times as many children die from drowning.186
Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is
nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times
for ages 0-5.187"

http://gunfacts.info/

click the screen version

Why would somebody argue statistics on the pro-gun side? I think it's pretty universally established that statistics are NOT in your favor when it comes to what the weapon will ultimately be used for.

I don't think there's any question that statistically there are greater dangers than carrying a firearm (swimming pools, beestings, deer). That's why in my post I said that I wasn't going to march in the streets in protest. I can still make the choice not to have one myself, and be reasonably certain that I'm doing myself and my family a favor.

Ummm, no. Guns are use many many many more times correctly for good uses than with bad consequences. Statistics are wholly on the pro-gun side, only anti-gun disinformation gives an anti-gun slant.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: warmodder

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Kazaam
so going to the mall and buying gifts and anything else you need is not using common sense and avoiding trouble? i wouldnt ever carry a gun but it definitely seems places that were safe no longer are.

I've yet to see a gun fight at the mall. Honestly, what are the odds on that anyway considering I spend maybe 2-3 hours a year at the mall? In fact, I've yet to read a story about a shooting at the mall that I "frequent." Hell, even if you lived there you'd probably never be exposed to gunfire.

I'm not saying that things don't happen but the odds really are in your favor and the likeliness of you doing something positive with your gun while armed are slim to none. Not to mention the huge responsibility of carrying a gun to begin with. I'm not entirely convinced that that's something CCW holders really grasp.

Again, living in fear isn't part of my life.

And yet all statistics prove beyond a doubt exacly the opposite.

What positive externalities could possibly come out of carrying a gun? Does your model shoot candy canes and snowflakes? Yes in very slim circumstances you may be able to save some lives, but not many will be placed in that situation. The chance for negatives--be them by mistake, on purpose, whatever--is infinitely greater than you being in a position to cause a benefit.

And yet all statistics prove beyond a doubt exactly the opposite.

I realize it's causing you cognitive dissonance, but there is no support that lawful carry is a danger. At all. There is ample support that lawful carry is used to beneficial ends predominately. There's simply no argument there, it's absolute supportable fact. Until that is agreed on and understood (and truly accepted) there is no reason to argue further.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: pontifex
why is it that when someone posts a thread about guns, 99.9% of the replies are the same old bullshit? and this is for both sides, not just the anti-gun people. no one ever comes up with new material.

and it doesn't matter if the thread is about carrying concealed or just someone showing off their new purchase.

Because there IS nothing new. Things don't actually change, people just refuse to actually study and listen/learn to what is already there.

then why keep bringing it up? its obviously not going to sway a gun owner into thinking "oh shit! i'm wrong! gotta sell these guns asap!" so why bother?

Cognitive dissonance I believe. People simply can't look at the facts and modify their own biases, so they're left arguing to the bitter end something which is rationally indefensible. Meanwhile those that argue against them continue to serve the cause of truth and education by continuing to disprove their rantings. We know no one will actually listen, but reason and honor requires that we continue to make the information available.