Finally BMW doesn't win a 35K sports sedan comparo

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: BigSmooth

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: BigSmooth
For those that have not had a chance to read the article, the TL only lost to the 325 by 1 point, IIRC.

The Acura trounced the BMW in most categories including feature content and raw performance numbers but when it came to the handling/chassis and the more subjective ratings, the BMW made up the difference. C&D expressed some concern about the TL's suspension and probably penalized the FWD layout in their "fun-to-drive" rating, etc.
For people that would not regularly push the cars to their limit, the TL would certainly be a better choice based on the article IMHO.

The G35 did well all around which is why it eked out a victory. They liked all three cars.

C&D also ripped acura a new one for FWD when they did an individual review. They need to let it go. Condemning it for that, when they hardly mention BMW's sub 200 horsepower (which is pathetic for a 35k sports sedan. Just pathetic), isn't fair. The BMW gets nearly a second slower than the TL, which is an eternity in the 1/4.

They do call out the BMW for not having enough power, and the lack of power does factor into the rankings (in the "engine output" and performance categories). That's one of the reasons why the porky Audi finished so low.

However, I do think they rewarded the BMW's handling a little much because of the big gap in the subjective rankings which are more heavily weighted than the objective categories. I will say that the 3-Series has long been the benchmark in this respect, and C&D is certainly not the only publication to be charmed by that chassis. Hell, I was actually a bit surprised that the 325 didn't win the comparison based on what you normally see in magazines.

Well the only BMW I've ever driven was a late model 325i automatic, and although that autotragic is sucking away some power that the manual transmission would have left...I don't care how nicely a car handles; if you floor it and you're not put back in your seat it's just not impressive. Getting back in my lowly maxima afterward taught me that. I've no doubt that the TL would impress upon me a serious desire to accelerate - more so than any 185 horsepower car could do (unless it weighs damn near nothing like the upcoming lotus).

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: dr150
There's a lot of Ricer sentiment on this thread. LOL! 😀 Not a surprise, as most posters are Asian and biased. 🙂

Bottom line: The Germans can out-engineer the Asians any day of the week. All they have to do is stop being cheap-a$$es and put bigger engines inside.

That they can CONSISTENTLY win show-downs in car mags with their weaker (by choice) engines against more powerful cars is a TESTAMENT to their designs.

The day when they feel slightly "concerned" by the Asian cars, they'll then react and be more competitive with the pricing and offering stonger engines in the respective market segment.

They still carry, by far, the most prestige and the sentiment among the wanna-be car buyers.

IT IS WHAT IT IS! 🙂

"Out-engineer"? The two things the Germans have done that car mags are impressed with is find a nicer balance of ride quality & handling (BMW only btw) and implement a superior man/machine interface. On the other hand, the Japanese have succeeded in building more reliable cars that are considered by many just as fun to drive, with comparable/better performance, and for less money.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: BigSmooth

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: BigSmooth
For those that have not had a chance to read the article, the TL only lost to the 325 by 1 point, IIRC.

The Acura trounced the BMW in most categories including feature content and raw performance numbers but when it came to the handling/chassis and the more subjective ratings, the BMW made up the difference. C&D expressed some concern about the TL's suspension and probably penalized the FWD layout in their "fun-to-drive" rating, etc.
For people that would not regularly push the cars to their limit, the TL would certainly be a better choice based on the article IMHO.

The G35 did well all around which is why it eked out a victory. They liked all three cars.

C&D also ripped acura a new one for FWD when they did an individual review. They need to let it go. Condemning it for that, when they hardly mention BMW's sub 200 horsepower (which is pathetic for a 35k sports sedan. Just pathetic), isn't fair. The BMW gets nearly a second slower than the TL, which is an eternity in the 1/4.

They do call out the BMW for not having enough power, and the lack of power does factor into the rankings (in the "engine output" and performance categories). That's one of the reasons why the porky Audi finished so low.

However, I do think they rewarded the BMW's handling a little much because of the big gap in the subjective rankings which are more heavily weighted than the objective categories. I will say that the 3-Series has long been the benchmark in this respect, and C&D is certainly not the only publication to be charmed by that chassis. Hell, I was actually a bit surprised that the 325 didn't win the comparison based on what you normally see in magazines.

Well the only BMW I've ever driven was a late model 325i automatic, and although that autotragic is sucking away some power that the manual transmission would have left...I don't care how nicely a car handles; if you floor it and you're not put back in your seat it's just not impressive. Getting back in my lowly maxima afterward taught me that. I've no doubt that the TL would impress upon me a serious desire to accelerate - more so than any 185 horsepower car could do (unless it weighs damn near nothing like the upcoming lotus).

Skoorb, you keep trashing the 325i even though you've only driven an auto. Drive the freakin stick. You will definitely notice a huge difference in the car. Even with 184HP, the car does 0-60 in the low 7 seconds. That is not too shabby. You're basing your entire opinion of a car based on one that most people will readily admit isn't the one to get.

 

[CChaos]

I think it's interesting to consider the reality of how these cars are likely driven in relation with the testing they undergo in this comparison. It sort of goes back to my rhetorical question about a manual G35x in that I think that the lack of this configuration is a clear sign that Infiniti knows it's selling a small luxury sedan and not a "sports" anything. I just don't see the auto G35 sedan drivers worried much about "the twisties" or 0-60 times. Were this the case, a manual AWD G35 would be a no-brainer instead of a niche vehicle. I mean ~240hp and AWD in a Japanese 4-door from a company with a reputation for great service and good quality and reliability. It sounds a lot like my dream car. Let's face it though, it's an aging yuppie in that Infiniti, not Speed Racer.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SkoorbWell the only BMW I've ever driven was a late model 325i automatic, and although that autotragic is sucking away some power that the manual transmission would have left...I don't care how nicely a car handles; if you floor it and you're not put back in your seat it's just not impressive. Getting back in my lowly maxima afterward taught me that. I've no doubt that the TL would impress upon me a serious desire to accelerate - more so than any 185 horsepower car could do (unless it weighs damn near nothing like the upcoming lotus).

argument might work if you were talking torque instead of power. power is not what presses you into your seat.

 

[LittleWolf]

I think the whole new setup of C&D's subjective option crap sucks. For example, last year when they did the test between a 330i and A4 3.0, they were very neck to neck. And not in this test a lowly 325 (with no changes) beats the same A4. Just don't get it..:disgust:

Granted currently the G35 has a slight advantage over the BMW 3, more so due to price factor than any outright handling benefits. The new Acura is also a good runner in the FWD group. The IS was trouced too by the A4 in one of the past test and now without any revision it manages to beat the A4. :Q I think C&D should stick to factual reviews than some subjective crap.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Those of you who question just how special BMWs are need to first go test drive the competitor car of choice, either from Lexus, Audi, Acura, Infiniti, etc. This is not hard to do if you're 21 or older. Just go to a dealer, dress nicely, and say you're in the market for such a car, they'll check your license, then let you drive it.

After you've done this, register is participate in BMW's Drive for the Cure program. When this comes to your area, you simply show up at the dealer, and get to drive as many non-M BMWs as you have time to do so, both automatic and manual cars are available. It's completely free. You also get lots of other freebies like free food, t-shirts, magazines, DVDs, etc.

During these events, you select the car you want to drive, 3-series, Z4, X5, 5-series, or 7-series. They give you the keys and a map. No one else has to be in the car, and the only rule is that you follow the directions on the map. The course they design usually takes 20-30 minutes to drive and includes as nice local roads as they can find. You can of course speed at your own risk. I like to take my own CDs along to test the Logic 7 audio system in the 7-series for example. Once I took a 540i sport wagon up to 110 in a 55 and luckily did not get caught!

Through such events, I have spent quite a bit of time behind the wheel of a 330i. I've also test driven the G35 and IS300 twice. Yes, either of the Japanese cars are a great value, but both are only imitations of the real thing. In the luxury car world, imitation simply doesn't cut it for many. The 3-series has the best driver-oriented interior, the best clutch, by far and away the best engine, and easily the best combination of ride comfort and handling. The IS300's inline-6 seems very underpowered, and the G35's VQ is no where near as buttery-smooth or as linear as the BMW's inline-6. The 3.0 inline-6 engines from BMW are no doubt the best in the world in my mind: powerful, smooth, and more efficient than anyone's elses offerings.

Go drive the competition, then go drive a BMW. There is a difference.

(Note, I am referring mostly to the current 3-series. The BMW 7s (E38) and 5s (E39) of old were THE ultimate driving machines. BMW is only digging itself into a hole with their new Bangled cars with iDrive. Now is certainly the time for the Japanese to strike, while BMW is weak. BMW can't do interior gadgets like Bluetooth very well, but the Japanese certainly can. Now is the time for Lexus to introduce a new IS and for Acura to switch to RWD. They have the opportunity to end BMW, if they put their minds to it.)

Edit:

Would the chick in my sig be as nice sitting in an Infiniti or Lexus??? I didn't think so!

 

[GTaudiophile]

Bump for my last question in previous post 😀

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Argo
Japanese car = the evil. I'd much rather drive a lower HP european car than a japanese counterpart.

And why are they evil?

 

[Asharus]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Those of you who question just how special BMWs are need to first go test drive the competitor car of choice, either from Lexus, Audi, Acura, Infiniti, etc. This is not hard to do if you're 21 or older. Just go to a dealer, dress nicely, and say you're in the market for such a car, they'll check your license, then let you drive it.

After you've done this, register is participate in BMW's Drive for the Cure program. When this comes to your area, you simply show up at the dealer, and get to drive as many non-M BMWs as you have time to do so, both automatic and manual cars are available. It's completely free. You also get lots of other freebies like free food, t-shirts, magazines, DVDs, etc.

During these events, you select the car you want to drive, 3-series, Z4, X5, 5-series, or 7-series. They give you the keys and a map. No one else has to be in the car, and the only rule is that you follow the directions on the map. The course they design usually takes 20-30 minutes to drive and includes as nice local roads as they can find. You can of course speed at your own risk. I like to take my own CDs along to test the Logic 7 audio system in the 7-series for example. Once I took a 540i sport wagon up to 110 in a 55 and luckily did not get caught!

Through such events, I have spent quite a bit of time behind the wheel of a 330i. I've also test driven the G35 and IS300 twice. Yes, either of the Japanese cars are a great value, but both are only imitations of the real thing. In the luxury car world, imitation simply doesn't cut it for many. The 3-series has the best driver-oriented interior, the best clutch, by far and away the best engine, and easily the best combination of ride comfort and handling. The IS300's inline-6 seems very underpowered, and the G35's VQ is no where near as buttery-smooth or as linear as the BMW's inline-6. The 3.0 inline-6 engines from BMW are no doubt the best in the world in my mind: powerful, smooth, and more efficient than anyone's elses offerings.

Go drive the competition, then go drive a BMW. There is a difference.

(Note, I am referring mostly to the current 3-series. The BMW 7s (E38) and 5s (E39) of old were THE ultimate driving machines. BMW is only digging itself into a hole with their new Bangled cars with iDrive. Now is certainly the time for the Japanese to strike, while BMW is weak. BMW can't do interior gadgets like Bluetooth very well, but the Japanese certainly can. Now is the time for Lexus to introduce a new IS and for Acura to switch to RWD. They have the opportunity to end BMW, if they put their minds to it.)

Edit:

Would the chick in my sig be as nice sitting in an Infiniti or Lexus??? I didn't think so!

I agree 100%. A lot of people like to talk sh!t even though they do not know anything about the car. A BMW?! Oh noes! Repair cost, reliability, ack!! Get behind the wheel and try it out for yourself, there is a HUGE difference. A friend of mine is leasing an Acura RSX right now, and I asked him if he test drove any other cars, like the 325i, to compare, but he was like "when I test drove the RSX, I knew this was the one!". What an asshat! Of course it's going to be amazing compared to your 1990 Chevy Celebrity!