Fighting over religion is, IMO, stupid. *rant*.

[RESmonkey]

I'm tired of this b.s. (and no, I don't watch televised news, so don't worry). How can one fight for and kill others all just for some crazed cause that they were brain washed in? How can you just kill someone just because they go against your religion, are on your "holy land,", etc?

Can an entire bunch of people just be blind to reality? Their faith drives them to war. Sickening. Faith is all about looking to a higher authority in time of need, knowing that there is a ceiling to protect you from fear, etc. (not saying ANY of that is true). How can someone just turn that into a hate crime/racial/anti-semitic/anti-americn thing?

My outlooks on a religion I will not name (or, more of a gov't now) become low and low day by day. Heck, who writes any of this holy scripture non-sense anyways? Someone bent on bloodshed? Someone who can't tolerate other religion/ideas/beliefs?

Your thoughts? Sorry if I offended anyone in a certain religion. Acutally, no, I'm not sorry. The people who are offended are not the people I'm talking about (peaceful practioners of religion). I'm angry at the extremists.

 

[Craig234]

I don't think most religious wars are about religion; I think they're about contests for power and wealth, the usual reasons, by groups who happen to have religious affiliations and structures.

It's a bit like if the Hatsfields were protestant and the McCoys catholic, and it got called a 'religious feud'.

 

[Arcex]

Most organized religions are, to me, intended more as an organized base for controling a group of people. It's a lot easier to get people to do something out of fear of a higher power than it is to get people to honestly feel it's the right thing to do.

My issue is if there was an all-powerful deity, why would he care about the things he is purported to care about? For example, why does it matter to him if we acknowlege his presense? Why does he care if we go to church on Sunday (or Saturday, or whatever)? Why would we live in a world where we can compile a mountain of evidence that flies in the face of what books like the Bible tell us and be forced to accept that the information garnered from petty things like history and science are all wrong?


They said it best in Catch-22, "you don't believe in the God you want to, and I won't believe in the God I want to."
And another gem, "Did it indeed seem probable, as he had overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men 6000 years ago would succed in building a tower to heaven?"

Something to think about...

 

[robtk3]

The most disturbing thing to me is how religion is so wrapped up in American politics. Bush holding up the bible and claiming "this is the only manual I need!" Yikes!! Is it any wonder this country is so f**ked up?

 

[RESmonkey]

Hmm...I was referring to Islam, but eh. I don't see Christians killing anyone for the sake of religion.

 

[robtk3]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Hmm...I was referring to Islam, but eh. I don't see Christians killing anyone for the sake of religion.

Have you ever heard of the crusades? How about the murder of a doctor because he/she performs abortions? Christians are just as delusional as the rest of them.

 

[Lemon law]

I can't seem to recall the poster with the signature line of--behind every religion is a bunch of old men wearing funny hats. For all the social good that religion can and does, there are really no world religions that are based on hatreds. But when it does come to the power to divide and create divisive conflicts, religion exceeds politics because it taps into blind faith to justify inhumane positions. Somewhat the US myth of the moment is the concept that we are somehow engaged in a titanic struggle with the forces of militant Islam. And with Christians
decrying how evil Islam is.

But any deeper analysis shows the root causes of the conflict are really economic. And religion is just the supplier of the justifications for both sides. Its somewhat appropriate to note that the United States was formed shortly after Europe tore itself apart fighting various bloody wars between the Catholics and Protestants. And our resulting constitution was a real world first---a society dedicated to freedom of religion and separation of Church and State. And our founding fathers had a very justified fear of the powers of religion to totally destroy a society. Rather than make the prohibitions totally codified into law, they somewhat relied on men of good faith avoiding playing the religion card. And somehow we are almost the first generations of Americans who have broken that covenant to keep religion separate from politics. And are now allowing religions to get public funding and intrude into politics in a big way. The walls our founding fathers set up are being breached. Right now the religious divides attacked and demoniced is mainly the Islamic faith but its likely to soon extend to intolerance of more mainline Protestant faiths when economic incentives and political power are added to the mix.

If these trend of politicizing religion continues unabated, we will probably have to relearn in blood and misery what our founding fathers already took to heart. We just buried Falwell, greater dangers are at work with ambitions far greater. Never underestimate the power of religion to divide. Look at how fast Yugoslavia went to hell in a hand basket when politicians started playing the religion card.

 

[compuwiz1]

For good or bad, I believe religion is a concept for managing masses of people.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: robtk3

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Hmm...I was referring to Islam, but eh. I don't see Christians killing anyone for the sake of religion.

Have you ever heard of the crusades? How about the murder of a doctor because he/she performs abortions? Christians are just as delusional as the rest of them.

The Crusades were an act of vengeance and retaliation by Europe for Muslims invading Europe and conquering Spain and half of France. A battle just south of Paris decided the fate of Europe and whether it would be conquered by Muslims or not.

 

[ericlp]

I actually think (partly) why we went to war with Iraq is the convert Iraq into christains. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Iraq PM had to believe in the bible before we choose who would be Iraq's leader. Tho, I know very little about Iraq's government or anything about it's leader.

Were sending them over pretty damn fast. Most of the contractors over there are heavily tied to religion IE faith based charity. But this makes sense to me since, if you read the bible most wars are fraught over religion. Millions of dead people because god thought it was a good idea!

Look, what 90% of Americans believe in God, so wouldn't you think that if were bringing democracy to your country then part of the price is bringing over the bible (better read it) or we'll kill more of your kind... Oh, thats not working? Well, well secretly throw your own religion against it self and out of control (Civil War). Depressing? Yeah, I think so. Thanks Bush! Damn born again creep.

From the so called command and chief...

RICHARD CIZIK, Natl Association of Evangelicals: The secularist believes that we're undoing the American experiment, that we are trampling upon the separation of church and state. The secularist, you see, wants to relegate religious belief to the margins of public life, and the evangelical, with his pietistic influence, says, "Absolutely not. I'm going to bring those religious values right into the center of all of life."

NARRATOR: On September 14th, 2001, Bush gathered with spiritual and political leaders from around the nation at the National Cathedral. The president had declared a national day of prayer and remembrance for the victims of the September 11th terrorist attacks. In the wake of those attacks, as he brought the nation into the war on terror, Bush's public expression of religion took on a new tone, no longer speaking merely about personal salvation but of biblical themes of good and evil.

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We are here in the middle hour of our grief. Americans do not yet have the distance of history, but our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks and rid the world of evil.

JIM WALLIS, Editor-in-Chief, Sojourners Magazine: After September 11th, Bush's role changed dramatically, his notion of himself, and his place in history.

NARRATOR: Jim Wallis is the editor of the liberal evangelical magazine Sojourners and has written extensively on the president's use of religion since 9/11.

JIM WALLIS: He had been sort of a self-help Methodist, meaning someone whose faith had made a difference in his personal life-- solved some drinking issues, and some family issues, kind of a 12-step God. Then September 11th came, and the self-help Methodist became now almost a Messianic American Calvinist speaking of "the mission of America."

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: In every generation, the world has produced enemies of human freedom. They have attacked America because we are freedom's home and defender, and the commitment of our fathers is now the calling of our time.

RICHARD LAND, Southern Baptist Convention: As an evangelical Christian, I was completely in sync with the way the president put this in context for the nation. Romans 13 says God instituted civil government to punish those who do evil and to reward those who do that which is right.

NARRATOR: But in the weeks and months to come, the president's religious language of absolutes made others uncomfortable.

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We will rid the world of the evildoers. We've never seen this kind of evil before. But the evildoers have never seen the American people in action before, either, and they're about to find out. Thank you all very much.

JIM WALLIS: To not acknowledge, see, name evil in the world is bad theology. And yet Jesus says in the Gospel of Matthew, "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, your adversary's eye, your enemy's eye, and not see the log in your own eye? Why do you see the evil in them but not in yourself?"

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.

JIM WALLIS: To say that they are evil and we are good, and that if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists-- that's also bad theology.

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war. And we know that God is not neutral between them.

RICHARD LAND: The problem with the left is that some of them don't think God has a side. George Bush and most of George Bush's supporters believe God has a side. And we believe that side is freedom. We believe that side is democracy. We believe that side is respect for basic human rights.

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: Ours is the cause of human dignity.

NARRATOR: A year after 9/11, Bush again drew his message from the Bible.

Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: This idea of America is the hope of all mankind. That hope drew millions to this harbor. That hope still lights our way. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness will not overcome it.

JIM WALLIS: "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." Well, that's from the Gospel of John. But it's about the light of Christ and the word of God, which is the light that shines in the darkness and has never been overcome. Now, all of a sudden, it's meant to be America as a beacon of light to the world. He changed the meaning of the text. It's no longer about the word of God, the light of Christ, it's about us. It's about we being the hope of the world. That's, again, bad theology.

RICHARD LAND: I can understand that there are a lot of people on the left who think that-- who are uncomfortable with the concept that someone thinks they're doing God's will or that they're on a divine mission. That says more about the left than it does about George W. Bush. George W. Bush is standing squarely in the middle of American history and American tradition in believing in American exceptionalism. Does that mean that America's God's chosen people? No. No. Does it mean that we believe that an angel still rides in this storm, as they did at the founding? Yes. Yes.

JIM WALLIS: This language of righteous empire, of God being on our side and our having this divine mission-- I think this creates a framework for the misuse of religion. And I think the rest of the world hears this and it frightens them, particularly in the Arab world because they are afraid that we see this as a clash of civilizations and that this is a religious war.


After 9/11, Bush called the American invasion of Afghanistan ?a crusade? -- until advisors told him that he was implying it was a ?holy war? or a ?jihad.? He repeatedly referred to the fundamentalist Muslims as ?evil-doers.? Bush said, ?This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil, but good will prevail.? Bush also labeled his enemies as the ?axis of evil,? a term that was theologically and morally loaded. If the ?axis of evil? were so evil, terrorists would also have attacked other democracies across the globe. (The Nation, December 4, 2003)

 

[robtk3]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: robtk3

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Hmm...I was referring to Islam, but eh. I don't see Christians killing anyone for the sake of religion.

Have you ever heard of the crusades? How about the murder of a doctor because he/she performs abortions? Christians are just as delusional as the rest of them.

The Crusades were an act of vengeance and retaliation by Europe for Muslims invading Europe and conquering Spain and half of France. A battle just south of Paris decided the fate of Europe and whether it would be conquered by Muslims or not.

Are you suggesting Christians are more righteous because they acted out of revenge? Isn't turning the other cheek the Christian way? I don't think any of them are righteous when they kill because "God wills it". Religion is just a tool of oppression used by men in funny hats to control the masses and economies. A few posters here have got that much right.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Topic Title: Fighting over religion is, IMO, stupid. *rant*..

Welcome to P&N

Not only is the U.S. dominated by Religion but it's two party system has become religious.

Reagan and Bush are God for the right.

Clinton and Clinton is god for the left.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Topic Title: Fighting over religion is, IMO, stupid. *rant*..

Welcome to P&N

Not only is the U.S. dominated by Religion but it's two party system has become religious.

Reagan and Bush are God for the right.

Clinton and Clinton is god for the left.

Um no. Neither Clinton is leftwing. The left don't have much use for the Clintons.

Back on topic:
Fighting over religion is fun, lots more insults to fling.

 

[Arcex]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Topic Title: Fighting over religion is, IMO, stupid. *rant*..

Welcome to P&N

Not only is the U.S. dominated by Religion but it's two party system has become religious.

Reagan and Bush are God for the right.

Clinton and Clinton is god for the left.

If those are our only choices may I recommend the Church of the Mighty Arcex? You do have weekly dues to pay but everyone is guaranteed to make it into Heaven. If for some reason you don't make it into Heaven you will receive a 100% refund. Now how many religions give you a deal like that?

 

[robtk3]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: robtk3

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
Hmm...I was referring to Islam, but eh. I don't see Christians killing anyone for the sake of religion.

Have you ever heard of the crusades? How about the murder of a doctor because he/she performs abortions? Christians are just as delusional as the rest of them.

The Crusades were an act of vengeance and retaliation by Europe for Muslims invading Europe and conquering Spain and half of France. A battle just south of Paris decided the fate of Europe and whether it would be conquered by Muslims or not.

BTW The first crusades were sanctioned by the pope in order to recapture Jerusalem because the Byzintine empire was concerned about Muslim expansion. Now we have Muslims concerned about Christian expansion in the middle east. With our military bases and the puppetering of their leaders is it any wonder they hate the US? They hate us because of our freedom is BS. They hate the freedom we take pissing on their culture in order to secure the oil reserves.

 

[RESmonkey]

But the Crusades were a long time ago. And there is more 'order' among Christians (they have many charities, help out, etc.). Small murders don't amount to anything like mass murders (bombings, etc.). And if you say it isn't common, it is. Almost day after day some islamic fanatic bombs India (ever see that on american TV channels? nope).



BTW, I'm not not Christian.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
But the Crusades were a long time ago. And there is more 'order' among Christians (they have many charities, help out, etc.). Small murders don't amount to anything like mass murders (bombings, etc.). And if you say it isn't common, it is. Almost day after day some islamic fanatic bombs India (ever see that on american TV channels? nope).



BTW, I'm not not Christian.

No, you just don't know about them.

 

[Pabster]

Look through the prism of history.

Religion has been the root cause of nearly all war and evil, going back to the beginning of time as we know it.

 

[robtk3]

There is more "order" among Muslims as well but a small percentage choose to be fanatical. By the same token, there is a small percentage of Christians that choose to be fanatical. If you could gather all the abortion doctors in the country in one room a Christian fanatic would be more than happy to give his own life to wipe out that room. My point is I don't see one religion being superior to another. The number of deaths caused by one or the other mean nothing. One death is many deaths.

BTW, I'm not Christian, Muslim, Jewish, bald or left handed.

 

[BoomerD]

But MY god is better than YOUR god, and if you don't agree and convert to mine, I'm gonna blow up you country and kill you all...


Sure seems pretty stupid when it's worded like that, doesn't it?

 

[Lemon law]

What is this crap that the Christians have not engaged in any monkey business since the crusades? The ethnic violence in Yugoslavia is just one recent example of wonderful Christian love being practiced by the Bosnian Serbs on Moslems. See the mass graves to understand all the love.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Craig234
I don't think most religious wars are about religion; I think they're about contests for power and wealth, the usual reasons, by groups who happen to have religious affiliations and structures.

It's a bit like if the Hatsfields were protestant and the McCoys catholic, and it got called a 'religious feud'.

You don't know how right you are.

Take a look at the map

This article uses Iraq as an example and how the US military and leadership neglected consanguinity and is paying the price.

Excerpt from article:

WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. ? Compared with the rest of the world, the United States is a young country. Its people left many of their traditional social structures behind, crossed vast oceans, and started anew. So to understand the lives of the majority of people around the world, who live within institutions that have shaped human existence for centuries, Americans need to make a special effort to see things from a very different perspective.

All too often, the US carries out foreign policy with little comprehension of the societies it confronts. This can lead to unintended - often destructive - results.



One central element of the Iraqi social fabric that most Americans know little about is its astonishing rate of cousin marriage. Indeed, half of all marriages in Iraq are between first or second cousins. Among countries with recorded figures, only Pakistan and Nigeria rate as high. For an eye-opening perspective about rates of consanguinity (roughly equivalent to cousin marriage) around the world, click on the "Global Prevalence" map at www.consang.net.

But who cares who marries whom in a country we invade? Why talk to anthropologists who study that arcane subject? Only those who live in modern, individualistic societies could be so oblivious. Cousin marriage, especially the unique form practiced in the Middle East, creates clans of fierce internal cohesiveness and loyalty. So in addition to sectarian violence in Iraq, the US may also be facing a greater intensity of inter-clan violence than it saw in Vietnam or the ferocious Lebanese civil war.

The US can't deal with a problem it doesn't recognize, let alone understand.

Anthropologist Stanley Kurtz has described Middle East clans as "governments in miniature" that provide the services and social aid that Americans routinely receive from their national, state, and local governments. No one in a region without stable, fair government can survive outside a strong, unified, respected clan.

But still, what does this have to do with marrying cousins? Cousin marriage occurs because a woman who marries into another clan potentially threatens its unity. If a husband's bond to his wife trumped his solidarity with his brothers, the couple might take their property and leave the larger group, weakening the clan. This potential threat is avoided by cousin marriage: instead of marrying a woman from another lineage, a man marries the daughter of his father's brother - his cousin. In this scenario, his wife is not an alien, but a trusted member of his own kin group.

 

[Craig234]

1prophet, thank you for that information - you are right, I did not know that about Iraq. It's amazing how little we can know about a country that has been the central issue in our foreign policy for 5 years. That's a rare article that adds new (to most Americans), important insight.