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Originally posted by: dahunan
I didn't mean to be so harsh.. but you made me think of those people who defend the burglar who got shot and then decide that the man protecting his home was the true criminal 😕
Oh no way. I would never think along those lines. Defending yourself is a big deal to me. I could just imagine though, the sort of everyday scuffles that would escalate to full on gun battles if California ever passed such a law. Driving on the freeway is dangerous enough in Southern California, let alone the possibility of armed road ragers. Yikes.
 
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: dahunan
I didn't mean to be so harsh.. but you made me think of those people who defend the burglar who got shot and then decide that the man protecting his home was the true criminal 😕
Oh no way. I would never think along those lines. Defending yourself is a big deal to me. I could just imagine though, the sort of everyday scuffles that would escalate to full on gun battles if California ever passed such a law. Driving on the freeway is dangerous enough in Southern California, let alone the possibility of armed road ragers. Yikes.


Every time a concealed carry law is proposed the ant-gun lobby comes out and starts harping about how the streets will run red with the blood of innocents. Yet, every time their predictions fail to materialize.

Many states have concealed carry laws in place and a few even have open carry. They seem to be getting along just fine.
 
Most people who have a concealed weapon permit are more practiced in the use of a handgun. It takes a good amount of practice to be accurate with a handgun from more than 20 feet away. Even with a two to one numerical advantage, the two perps were probably at an overall disadvantage.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Cool.

(Anyone have any data that shows the number of saved innocent lives from this kind of situation and the number of lives lost to gun accidents and such.)

John Lott suggests 2.1 million defensive uses of guns annually. Granted his findings have been questioned, but then everyones findings are always questioned on both sides. I'd say it's a pretty fair bet, given the number of gun owners/users. I believe his numbers also included gun use as part of a job (police, security, etc) but don't quote me on that. Conversely there have been about 400,000 crimes annually commited with a firearm according to DoJ statstics.
 
Originally posted by: MisterCornell
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MisterCornell
It looks like the concealed carry law in Ohio is already paying dividends.

Yay for him.

Maybe after a few more of these incidents are publicized, the average street thug will think twice about sticking up the average docile looking fellow in a collared shirt and non-baggy pants.

:thumbsup: 😎

Question, this Law obviously was brought about and went into effect before the State was overrun by the Religious Republicans. Now that the State is Red is this Law that is obviously already working well in danger of being repealed by the Religious Right???

I think you've been drinking too much of your own Kool Aid. Your post made no sense, and it almost sounded like someone making a parody of what you usually post.

As far I can tell, the government here in Ohio has been dominated by Republicans for quite some time. They are not, however, particularly conservative Republicans, which is why this law was enacted only recently after very heavy pressuring and lobbying from conservative groups.

I actually can't recall whether or not Bob Taft, the moderate-to-liberal Republican governor of Ohio supported it or not. My guess is that if he did, it was only in response to considereable pressure, because he was against it for quite some time.

Do you have proof that Ohio has been Republican for quite some time?

Do you have proof that Republicans proposed and passed this Law?
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

John Lott suggests 2.1 million defensive uses of guns annually.

That seems awfully high. Who is he anyway? Have his studies been subjected to peer review? Why do I think it's high? People love to show stories of gun owners protecting themselves, yet I still don't hear THAT many stories. But I'd be open to persuasion by a well-done study.

Conversely there have been about 400,000 crimes annually commited with a firearm according to DoJ statstics.

And what about the deaths and injuries from accidents?
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

John Lott suggests 2.1 million defensive uses of guns annually.

That seems awfully high. Who is he anyway? Have his studies been subjected to peer review? Why do I think it's high? People love to show stories of gun owners protecting themselves, yet I still don't hear THAT many stories. But I'd be open to persuasion by a well-done study.

Conversely there have been about 400,000 crimes annually commited with a firearm according to DoJ statstics.

And what about the deaths and injuries from accidents?

From what I understand its hard to get real statistics about handgun deaths because they quite often lump police shootings and suicides in the statistics.

 
Hopefully Illinois will come up with a concealed carry law soon. Not that I own a gun or would apply for the permit, but I think the right to bear arms should include bearing arms in public, not just locked in a safe.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

John Lott suggests 2.1 million defensive uses of guns annually.

That seems awfully high. Who is he anyway? Have his studies been subjected to peer review? Why do I think it's high? People love to show stories of gun owners protecting themselves, yet I still don't hear THAT many stories. But I'd be open to persuasion by a well-done study.

Conversely there have been about 400,000 crimes annually commited with a firearm according to DoJ statstics.

And what about the deaths and injuries from accidents?


Actually people may like to hear the stories, but media doesn't broadcast them. It's a combination of liberal bias and liability I think. You have to work very hard to come up with coverage.

Lott wrote the (so far) most comprehensive study of private firearm ownership in America. Many of his peers support his findings, many claim bias, etc. Do a google on him, you'll get thousands of hits. If you disregard both the NRA and the gun control sites (tossing out both sides), most in the middle claim he's close to accurate. Even if you cut it in half (which is ridiculous) there's still far more defensive gun uses in America than criminal (again, allowing for job related uses).

Injuries is covered in crimes for the most part...if it wasn't accidental, it was a crime (or it was totally justifiable, in which case who cares). Accidents account for another 100,000 a year roughly, with about 1000 being fatal I believe. In other words, 500,000 total bad gun things, a couple million good...or hell, cut it in half if you want, call it 2 to 1 good to bad. Hell, cut it in half again if you want. Still even odds good to bad...and if you cut it by 75% like that how much will you add to the crime section when there's no appreciable resistance?
 
Is the public really safer when Joe Smoe has a concealed weapon and uses it? This guy had multiple hurdles to get his permits, hurdles that insured he knew what he was doing. Quite frankly the types of people calling for the concealed weapons laws - that do not require permits - are as much of a menace to society as the criminal that carries one. I bet the cops aren't too happy with alot of people packing weapons out in the public. If you want to wear one, strap on a holster and proudly display it.
 
Originally posted by: MadRat
Is the public really safer when Joe Smoe has a concealed weapon and uses it? This guy had multiple hurdles to get his permits, hurdles that insured he knew what he was doing. Quite frankly the types of people calling for the concealed weapons laws - that do not require permits - are as much of a menace to society as the criminal that carries one. I bet the cops aren't too happy with alot of people packing weapons out in the public. If you want to wear one, strap on a holster and proudly display it.

In my experience no law enforcement official has EVER declared a problem with a cpl holder. Ever. That's because, for the most part, cpl holders do NOT commit crimes. If you go through all that work, you're not a criminal. In fact, in national studies a law enforcement officer is actually more likely to commit a felony than is a cpl holder. Hell, in Washington state alone I can list 4 high profile murders by officers (one a chief of police), and yet not one by a cpl holder (at least that was ever reported as such). Given the liberal medias bias against citizens with guns you'd think such a thing would be jumped on if it happened. I have heard some Sheriff's who don't like being responsible for giving them out due to time, money and liability issues...but they don't have a problem with honest citizens protecting themselves and those around them.

Neither gun owners, nor law enforcement (or regular citizens for that matter), like the idea of open carry. Open carry is a magnet for trouble. People get scared, they act stupidly, they make assumptions about your authority, etc. It creates confusion and chaos. Criminals will target you for death in the event of activity in your area (rather than risk you shooting them). No, open carry is generally a bad idea in this society (even though I myself am all for it).
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Actually people may like to hear the stories, but media doesn't broadcast them.
How do you explain this story then?

It's a combination of liberal bias and liability I think.
Where is your evidence for liberal bias in the media?

Injuries is covered in crimes for the most part...if it wasn't accidental, it was a crime (or it was totally justifiable, in which case who cares). Accidents account for another 100,000 a year roughly, with about 1000 being fatal I believe. In other words, 500,000 total bad gun things, a couple million good...or hell, cut it in half if you want, call it 2 to 1 good to bad. Hell, cut it in half again if you want. Still even odds good to bad...and if you cut it by 75% like that how much will you add to the crime section when there's no appreciable resistance?

500,000 total bad gun events is reasonable. Still have doubts about the 2 million self-defense scenarios though for the reasons I mentioned above. But I'm not closed to the possibility of it being true.
 
The CCP here in Michigan has been credited with stopping hundreds of violent crimes. And better yet, in some cases killing the criminals before they choke our court system.
 
Originally posted by: irwincur
The CCP here in Michigan has been credited with stopping hundreds of violent crimes. And better yet, in some cases killing the criminals before they choke our court system.

How many gun crimes and gun accidents are there in Michigan over the same period of time?
 
The Media's Intentional Bias Against Guns
By
Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief



The author of the most comprehensive and controversial research on civilian use of firearms against criminals defended his latest work in Washington on Monday.

Dr. John Lott is an economist and former Yale University School of Law researcher best known for his book More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws. In that book, he detailed research arguing "allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes, without increasing accidental deaths."

Lott -- now a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think-tank -- said Monday that he understands why some negative stories about the use of guns get more coverage than stories about people using guns to stop crimes.

"Suppose you're the director of a news bureau, and you have two stories. In one case, there's a dead body on the ground, a sympathetic person, a victim," Lott began. "In the other case, let's say, a woman has brandished a gun, the would-be attacker has run away, no shots are fired, no dead body on the ground, no crime actually committed.

"I think virtually anybody who would look at that would find the first news story to be considered a lot more newsworthy than the second," he continued.

The research Lott conducted appears to support this thesis. In an examination of New York Times stories from 2001, Lott found 104 articles related to the use of guns by criminals, totaling 50,745 words. He excluded court case coverage, crimes committed with bb or pellet guns, guns recovered at crime scenes but not used in the crime under investigation, wrongful shootings by police and the illegal transportation or sale of guns.

By contrast, the national "newspaper of record" wrote 163 words about the defensive use of a gun by a citizen in only one story. The results were similar for USA Today, which reported 5,660 words on criminal use of guns but no reporting on the use of guns to stop crimes, and the Washington Post, which devoted 46,884 words to the criminal use of firearms and 953 words to their defensive use by law-abiding citizens.

Paul Waldman, associate director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, said there is "no question there is a bias in media coverage of issues relating to crime and guns," but he argued that the bias is toward newsworthiness, not against guns.

"It has a bias for the event over the non-event, the thing that actually happened as opposed to the thing that never happened, for the violent over the placid, for the dramatic over the mundane," Waldman said.

"That, I think, is the most important reason why there's so much more news about things like murders, when guns are actually used, than when they are not used or when they are used in a way that doesn't actually result in anyone's death or injury," he said.

Lack of newsworthiness apparently not the deciding factor
But in his latest book, The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong, Lott asserts that supposed lack of newsworthiness does not explain why the establishment media fail to report when already noteworthy crimes-in-progress are stopped by armed citizens.

"My guess is, for example, few people would realize, and understandably so, that about a third of the public school shootings were stopped by citizens with guns well before the police were able to arrive," Lott said Monday.

"If you go through and do news searches on those cases, you'll find that only about 1 percent or fewer of the stories on those specific cases will mention that a gun was used to stop the attack," he said. "That particular part of the story seems to be systematically left out of the coverage."

Lott pointed to a January 2003 attack at Virginia's Appalachian Law School in which Peter Odighizuwa, a disgruntled student, allegedly shot and killed the school's dean, a professor and a fellow student on campus before being subdued by two armed students.

Upon hearing gunfire, students Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges ran to their vehicles, retrieved their handguns, returned and pointed them at Odighizuwa. They then ordered the attacker to drop his gun, which he did, and students then tackled the disarmed gunman and, after a short scuffle, restrained him until police arrived several minutes later.

"If you do a... computerized search of news stories around the country, you'll find in the one week after the attack well over 200 separate stories about the incident," Lott said. "However, only four mention the students having a gun in any way, and only two of those four mention that the students actually used their guns to stop the attack."

The Washington Post, for example, wrote that: "students pounced on the gunman and held him until help arrived." New York's Newsday explained that: "The attacker was restrained by the students." Other accounts erroneously reported that: "students tackled the man while he was still armed."

"Given that something is already newsworthy, why is it that this one particular aspect of the event is left out?" Lott asked.

"I think it's hard to explain it on the basis of newsworthiness. I would guess that saying students 'subdued' an attacker, or 'restrained' him, or 'pounced on' the attacker," he argued, "is probably going to be less gripping to readers than if you were to say that they used a gun to do it."

False impression from reporting on children killed with guns
Lott also argues that reporting on children accidentally killed with firearms is also misleading.

"The impression that we would get... is that surely we're talking about young kids who die from accidental gunshots in the home, and that we're talking about something that is essentially at epidemic type rates," Lott said. "[But] in 1999, the last year for which data was available when I did the book, there were 31 accidental gun deaths in the United States involving kids under age 10.

"If you break down these 31 cases, there were actually six cases in the United States in that year where a child under 10 either accidentally shot themselves to death or another child," he added.

Again, Waldman acknowledged the apparent bias but attributed it to the desire to grab an audience's attention, not a bias against guns.

"Kids are used by journalists as kind of an easy device to lend emotion and drama to their news," he said.

"You wonder why children getting shot gets more attention than other kinds of death," Waldman continued. "I think it's because it's tragic and violent and dramatic all at the same time, and these are all things that news is drawn to."

But Lott believes the unbalanced media coverage contributes to public acceptance of the false statistic created by anti-gun groups that "nine children are killed by guns every day."

According to data in the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, achieving the "nine children a day" number would require including "children" as old as 24 years of age, depending on the year chosen for analysis. More than 50 percent of that nine per day are young adults who successfully attempt suicide.

Of the remaining shooting victims 17 to 24 years of age, 70 percent were actively involved in criminal activity at the time of their deaths.

The rate of true "children" dying from accidental gun deaths in law-abiding homes is "essentially zero," Lott argued, when only accidental shootings by and of children under 10 years of age are considered.

"You're talking about something that's akin to children in those homes dying from lightning strikes," Lott explained. "To the extent to which these rare [accidental shootings of children] occur, they overwhelmingly take place in... households where someone with a criminal record, an adult, is accidentally firing the gun."

Statistics Lott gathered from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on the causes of accidental deaths in children less than 10 years of age in 1999 (the latest year for which data were available when the book was being written) support his contention:

Motor vehicle crashes -- 1260
Accidental residential fires -- 484
Pedestrians killed by vehicles -- 370
Drowning in bathtubs -- 93
Bicycle accidents -- 81
Accidental discharge of a firearm -- 31
Accidental discharge of a firearm by a child under 10 years of age -- 6
Looking at the data from 1995 through 1999, Lott discovered only five to nine cases per year in which a child shot him or herself or another child.

"Whether it's five or nine or six or 31, obviously it would be far better if it were zero, but I think some perspective is needed here," he argued. "You have to consider that there are some 90 million Americans who own guns, that you're talking about 40 million kids in this age group.

"It's pretty hard to think of virtually any other item that's as commonly owned in American homes that's anywhere near as remotely dangerous, that has as low of an accidental death rate," Lott said. "You have as many kids, or more, who literally die being caught up in combines on farms each year as you have children accidentally killing other kids."

Lott criticized for lack of peer review on latest research
Carlisle Moody, chairman of the economics department at the College of William and Mary, said research such as that Lott included in The Bias Against Guns should pass three tests.

"If an article actually passes the peer review test, it has been vetted in about the most careful way that science has found to do these sorts of things," he said.

Lott acknowledged that while some of the data included in The Bias Against Guns did come from previously published peer-reviewed journals, most did not. He said he did not submit his latest research for peer review because he has seen the process produce biased results in the past.

"I'm not sure I'm convinced that refereeing prevents political views and other things from kind of going in there and showing themselves in different places," Lott said.

He pointed to a recent paper that used subscription to the third-most popular gun magazine in the U.S. as a measure of gun ownership. When subscription rates for the most popular and second-most popular magazines were used instead, the findings of the research were altered dramatically.

"If I was a referee, I would ask, Why only look at one magazine here? Why not the largest or the fifth largest?" Lott said. "The fact that it had not would make me pretty suspicious and unlikely to go ahead and publish the paper."

That study was not only published, Lott explained, but has also won awards from academic organizations despite its obviously flawed pretext.

Lott 'way ahead of the competition' on other two factors
"The second question that you should ask is," Moody continued, "'Did the authors make the data available for other researchers to rummage around in?'"

"The third thing we should ask is... 'Were the requisite controls used?'" Moody said, explaining that controls isolate the effect of, in the case of Lott's studies, the possession of concealed handguns by ordinary citizens on violent crime rates. Such controls would eliminate the effects of other factors, such as poverty or incarceration, on crime.

Moody criticized Lott for not submitting his latest work for peer review but said his compliance with the other two points more than compensates.

"On the other two criteria, he is way ahead of his competition," Moody said. "He makes the data available, which means he is probably not cheating. I've checked him out; he's not cheating, and he uses all the requisite controls. "He does it right, and so, I tend to believe the results that John has published in the back of the book.

"If you wish to be informed on the debate concerning guns and public policy," Moody concluded, "you must have read John's book."

I thought this was a good read.
 
If they pull a gun on you, you may die anyway if you dont have enough money to give them. Hell you could give them what theywant, let they take off and then shoot them in the back. It is kind of gutsey to go for a gun when they are pointing a gun at you. All it takes is one trigger pull and you could be dead. A safe person, I would think, would have a gun with the safety on and never get off a shot.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Actually people may like to hear the stories, but media doesn't broadcast them.
How do you explain this story then?

It's a combination of liberal bias and liability I think.
Where is your evidence for liberal bias in the media?

Injuries is covered in crimes for the most part...if it wasn't accidental, it was a crime (or it was totally justifiable, in which case who cares). Accidents account for another 100,000 a year roughly, with about 1000 being fatal I believe. In other words, 500,000 total bad gun things, a couple million good...or hell, cut it in half if you want, call it 2 to 1 good to bad. Hell, cut it in half again if you want. Still even odds good to bad...and if you cut it by 75% like that how much will you add to the crime section when there's no appreciable resistance?

500,000 total bad gun events is reasonable. Still have doubts about the 2 million self-defense scenarios though for the reasons I mentioned above. But I'm not closed to the possibility of it being true.


Remember that gun uses doesn't equate to shootings...merely drawing a firearm is a 'gun use'. How many times do police draw a weapon on someone? Security? Individual? See how quick that can add up?

I'm only 33, been in the biz for 12 years. I've had about half a dozen business 'gun uses' and another three or so private (never had to fire, fortunately). That's 9 just for me. With those kinds of numbers it's easy to see 2 million plus.
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Remember that gun uses doesn't equate to shootings...merely drawing a firearm is a 'gun use'. How many times do police draw a weapon on someone? Security? Individual? See how quick that can add up?
We're not talking about police here. That's a whole other matter. So you can't include them.

I'm only 33, been in the biz for 12 years. I've had about half a dozen business 'gun uses' and another three or so private (never had to fire, fortunately). That's 9 just for me. With those kinds of numbers it's easy to see 2 million plus.
We'd want an objective observer to determine whether you used the guns appropriately and that it made a difference between you being harmed and nothing happening. But hey, if you're right -- which is possible-- that's a good argument for letting people carry around weapons.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: irwincur
The CCP here in Michigan has been credited with stopping hundreds of violent crimes. And better yet, in some cases killing the criminals before they choke our court system.

How many gun crimes and gun accidents are there in Michigan over the same period of time?

Better yet, we should see how many gun crimes and accidents occured before and after such legislation. Just because it's illegal doesn't mean a mugger won't pull out a concealed handgun and hold you up with it.
 
I have no beef with permit holders. I have a beef that anyone can pack. Its a bad recipe for society.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Remember that gun uses doesn't equate to shootings...merely drawing a firearm is a 'gun use'. How many times do police draw a weapon on someone? Security? Individual? See how quick that can add up?
We're not talking about police here. That's a whole other matter. So you can't include them.

I'm only 33, been in the biz for 12 years. I've had about half a dozen business 'gun uses' and another three or so private (never had to fire, fortunately). That's 9 just for me. With those kinds of numbers it's easy to see 2 million plus.
We'd want an objective observer to determine whether you used the guns appropriately and that it made a difference between you being harmed and nothing happening. But hey, if you're right -- which is possible-- that's a good argument for letting people carry around weapons.


Ok, so Lott didn't include law enforcement in his study? I'm asking because I couldn't remember, but I thought he had. That alone would seriously alter his numbers.

As to the second point, that's impossible...so if it's a requirement the study can never be done. A vast majority of 'gun uses' is never reported to any authority, and even when it is no vehicle exists as oversight. Even then it's gonna be the word of the citizen to go on. Who decides appropriateness in those cases? How could you POSSIBLY discern rather the firearm was the deciding factor? Etc. Without establishing for certain the specifics we can know that firearms WERE used for disuasive purpose many many many many times last year (and every year), and in many of those cases the citizen carrying the gun survived and/or avoided becoming a victim of a crime. Beyond that it's impossible to clarify.

So the question is will you require citizens to give up all guns (an impossibility anyway) so that a complete comparison can be made (another impossibility) just to verify, or will you concede that since there is a chance the firearm was the deciding factor and lawful gun owners (for this discussion meaning cpl holders) have not created any crime or problems for the public that the situation is justified? As far as I can envision those are your only options that make a choice. The third option is to refuse to take sides either way of course.
 
Originally posted by: aka1nas
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: irwincur
The CCP here in Michigan has been credited with stopping hundreds of violent crimes. And better yet, in some cases killing the criminals before they choke our court system.

How many gun crimes and gun accidents are there in Michigan over the same period of time?

Better yet, we should see how many gun crimes and accidents occured before and after such legislation. Just because it's illegal doesn't mean a mugger won't pull out a concealed handgun and hold you up with it.


The down side with that method is that correlation is not causation. Crimes have reduced by about 50% since 1973. So if you look at Michigan and see crime went down you could falsely attribute that to concealed carry. A better study is to see at what rate crime was going down in Michigan before cpl, then compare it to what rate crime went down with cpl, then place that against the national averages, then study any other factors that might have influenced crime during the same period.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MisterCornell
It looks like the concealed carry law in Ohio is already paying dividends.

Yay for him.

Maybe after a few more of these incidents are publicized, the average street thug will think twice about sticking up the average docile looking fellow in a collared shirt and non-baggy pants.

:thumbsup: 😎

Question, this Law obviously was brought about and went into effect before the State was overrun by the Religious Republicans. Now that the State is Red is this Law that is obviously already working well in danger of being repealed by the Religious Right???


No, i think the wakos like gun ownership.
 
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