Federal judge orders jail for those praying at texas graduation ceremony

[sandorski]

Does it take a Vancouver Canuck to get it, i don't really care i just say fucking get that puck in!

ALL the way!

I'm only a Fan, but indeed...Go Canucks Go!

 

[Atreus21]

The Value is Freedom. Imposing a particular Religious Practice is opposed to that Value. Not imposing that Religious Practice gives Everyone the Freedom to whatever Belief they ascribe to.

Again, what you're saying is that your values are superior to others.

 

[sandorski]

Again, what you're saying is that your values are superior to others.

So what? You don't like Freedom?

 

[Blackjack200]

Again, what you're saying is that your values are superior to others.

Actually, it seems like he was suggesting that imposing a religion would hinder freedom without suggesting which is preferrable.

The individual is free (lol) to decide for himself which is more important (superior): freedom or state sanctioned religion.

 

[ElFenix]

I'm only a Fan, but indeed...Go Canucks Go!

this is a much more relevant and interesting conversation than whatever this thread is actually about

 

[Atreus21]

Actually, it seems like he was suggesting that imposing a religion would hinder freedom without suggesting which is preferrable.

The individual is free (lol) to decide for himself which is more important (superior): freedom or state sanctioned religion.

That is definitely a false dichotomy and I never argued that the state should sanction a single religion. Indeed, what I said was that, for all practical purposes, it already has.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I'm only a Fan, but indeed...Go Canucks Go!

All fans are Canucks, even us Brits, at least in Afghanistan... heh

And hell YES, Stanley Cup, WIN!

I'll be drinking whatever the medics been brewing if that happens... !

Been a Canucks fan for 19 years, so close every recent year, this year is the year!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

That is definitely a false dichotomy and I never argued that the state should sanction a single religion. Indeed, what I said was that, for all practical purposes, it already has.

I like how you try to plow your disgrace into the ready made ditch...

Does Jesus know how pathetic you are for pretending or does he know the truth of your patehtic being?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

That is definitely a false dichotomy and I never argued that the state should sanction a single religion. Indeed, what I said was that, for all practical purposes, it already has.

So what, that is unconstitutional and you know it, didn't Jesus specifically say to obey the law of the land...

BAD christian, you are going to hell...

I'll see you there with the good people, the uppity people will be in heaven, thank GOD!

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Son, when you grow up, even you will understand that the basic of everything is the status quo, you belive in nothing, everything to disturb the status quo is indeed forced upon that very status quo.

Freedom from religion is the status quo, it's the lemon test, the litmus test and the test applied in US governmet fuctions as per the SCOTUS.

I really don't give a shit whether you get this or not, i just think it's funny to lecture Americans on the interpretation of their own constitution.

This is brought to you by a British Captain in Afghanistan lecturing you on your own constitution...

LOL, a brit trying to claim he's lecturing an American on our Constitution. lol You can believe what you wish but it doesn't mean it's right. The Constitution does not say what you claim. freedom OF is NOT freedom FROM. It's really not that hard to understand - you just have to get over your OMG RELIGION!!11!!.

So let me ask you this to see if you'll finally get your head out of your ass so you can understand this simple concept. A guy walks into a gov't building with a shirt with the Lord's prayer on it. You see this shirt. Do you go tell a cop and have the guy arrested? Hells no, because he has the freedom via the 1st Amendment to wear the shirt and the gov't will not protect you FROM the guy's t-shirt.(wearing a shirt is speech in case you are too dense to figure it out)
Now to the example of the school - IF you didn't have your head up your ass you'd see that I don't want the schools to have scheduled "prayer" but it sure as hell better not disallow people(especially students) from praying or saying "religious words".

 

[ericlp]

Jail time seems a bit extreme...

Don't we have enough people in jail already without placing people in there for using "religious words?"

what? would you rather us just nail their asses to a cross? oooops...

I think the Romans had it right all along.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

LOL, a brit trying to claim he's lecturing an American on our Constitution. lol You can believe what you wish but it doesn't mean it's right. The Constitution does not say what you claim. freedom OF is NOT freedom FROM. It's really not that hard to understand - you just have to get over your OMG RELIGION!!11!!.

So let me ask you this to see if you'll finally get your head out of your ass so you can understand this simple concept. A guy walks into a gov't building with a shirt with the Lord's prayer on it. You see this shirt. Do you go tell a cop and have the guy arrested? Hells no, because he has the freedom via the 1st Amendment to wear the shirt and the gov't will not protect you FROM the guy's t-shirt.(wearing a shirt is speech in case you are too dense to figure it out)
Now to the example of the school - IF you didn't have your head up your ass you'd see that I don't want the schools to have scheduled "prayer" but it sure as hell better not disallow people(especially students) from praying or saying "religious words".

Blah blah blah?

It's government endorsed if it's allowed in a public setting made by the School? Oh, i'm right? You're wrong...

Well, any sane human being knew that all along..

Cheerio! (and no, us Brits don't actually say that but since you are so shock full of stereotypes i wanted to play into it, you won't get it, Brits reading it will).

 

[Svnla]

I am not much into religious so maybe someone can englightning me.

Highschool students pray at the flag pole, saying grace at government meetings, etc are ok but this is not ok?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

This ruling prohibits organized prayer at these events. It only affects the students in one way: if a student is giving a speech, the student cannot invite prayer from the audience. Students can pray all they want, in silence or out loud.

It should be noted that they can't say certain words when speaking - not just "invite prayer from the audience".
These students are NOT representatives of the gov't and to disallow certain words is just plain wrong.

 

[fskimospy]

All religion, in practice, boils down to a set of values. This is right, and that's wrong. Government is doing nothing less in mandating that it's wrong to promote a religion (another set of values) in a public space.

No.

#1 definition of religion in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. (part b, because part a is inapplicable here)
: The service and worship of god or the supernatural.

Does that sound like the same thing as government deciding not to allow displays on public land to you?

Religion requires belief in the supernatural, a values system does not. Religion attempts to explain the world, the universe, whatever, a values system does not. A religion places the values it imparts as unquestionable and eternal truths, secular values systems really don't. Please stop continuing to attempt and equate the two, because they are not the same thing, or even particularly close to the same thing.

 

[woolfe9999]

It should be noted that they can't say certain words when speaking - not just "invite prayer from the audience".
These students are NOT representatives of the gov't and to disallow certain words is just plain wrong.

Yeah, the trouble with allowing students to encourage prayer in a speech at a graduation ceremony is that it's an end around. If school staff is legally forbidden from doing it, all they have to do is encourage/enlist a student speaker to do so. And in that case, it's equally illegal as it must be in all areas of the law. For example, if the police encourage a private citizen to break into your house and search for evidence of a crime, the private citizen is acting as an agent for the state. Accordingly, any evidence obtained is inadmissible as if the police had conducted the search without a warrant. Not so, however, if the private citizen acted on his own initiatve.

In this situation, the student may or may not be acting at the behest of faculty or administration. However, there is absolutely no way to prove it one way or the other. Hence why it isn't allowed.

- wolf

 

[sactoking]

FYI- Judge's asinine ruling struck down at appeal.

 

[waggy]

FYI- Judge's asinine ruling struck down at appeal.

no suprise. but you have a link? I would think a persons right to free speach would trump it. Now i can see the school not sanctioning a prayer but if someone mentions it or something in the speech there shouldn't be shit they or the police can do.

oh and if you take fed dollers you shouldn't do any religion.

WTF people are you insane? in the US you do not have "Freedom FROM religion" lol he has to be trolling.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It should be noted that they can't say certain words when speaking - not just "invite prayer from the audience".
These students are NOT representatives of the gov't and to disallow certain words is just plain wrong.

Certain words, like "wise and beautiful woman"? Well that is most certainly wrong, they should be allowed to say wise and beautiful woman, fuck, arse and fuck, and sucker since it will work in combinations...

Right? I mean, if they disallow certain words, that is just plain wrong, right?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Yeah, the trouble with allowing students to encourage prayer in a speech at a graduation ceremony is that it's an end around. If school staff is legally forbidden from doing it, all they have to do is encourage/enlist a student speaker to do so. And in that case, it's equally illegal as it must be in all areas of the law. For example, if the police encourage a private citizen to break into your house and search for evidence of a crime, the private citizen is acting as an agent for the state. Accordingly, any evidence obtained is inadmissible as if the police had conducted the search without a warrant. Not so, however, if the private citizen acted on his own initiatve.

In this situation, the student may or may not be acting at the behest of faculty or administration. However, there is absolutely no way to prove it one way or the other. Hence why it isn't allowed.

- wolf

Well holy hell, if you put it that way then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to slaughter animals or perform secual acts on parrots either...

Then where would the fun be?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

no suprise. but you have a link? I would think a persons right to free speach would trump it. Now i can see the school not sanctioning a prayer but if someone mentions it or something in the speech there shouldn't be shit they or the police can do.

oh and if you take fed dollers you shouldn't do any religion.

WTF people are you insane? in the US you do not have "Freedom FROM religion" lol he has to be trolling.

You don't have freedom from religion over there? Why that is just pathetic then...

Freedom from all religions or all religions at all times is equal representation, pick your poison son.

I actually thought more of you than i should have, if you don't get how endorsement of christianity by a led prayer is endorsement of religion then... well then you are fucked in your head.

Sure, it's no biggie, and we can continue that, just don't forget that it was your choice to institute a theocracy.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Does your Mum know you're drinking and posting on an internet forum?

 

[waggy]

You don't have freedom from religion over there? Why that is just pathetic then...

Freedom from all religions or all religions at all times is equal representation, pick your poison son.

I actually thought more of you than i should have, if you don't get how endorsement of christianity by a led prayer is endorsement of religion then... well then you are fucked in your head.

Sure, it's no biggie, and we can continue that, just don't forget that it was your choice to institute a theocracy.

NO we do not have "freedom FROM" we have "freedom OF" meaning we can practice it without interference of the government.

you do not have freedom from it which would ban it in most places. you don't want to hear it? leave that place. if its your private business or home though you can tell them to get the fuck out. Now in goverment places its diffrent. There have been conflicting rulings on having prayer in school. the school can't enforce prayer (unless its a religous school) but they won't stop you from doing it (unless it interferes with class).


you are not forced into any religion (well parents can. but at 18 its up to you) by the goverment, school, or work.

 

[DominionSeraph]

What part of the copied text from the OP don't you understand:

Should a student violate the order, school district officials could find themselves in legal trouble. Judge Biery ordered that his ruling be “enforced by incarceration or other sanctions for contempt of Court if not obeyed by District official (sic) and their agents.”

So if a student violates the order, the school officials get arrested. So the students are still discouraged from saying anything because school officials will get in trouble.

Indeed.
What part of "Stupid conservatives ITT are bellyaching about how it is unconstitutional because he's throwing the students into jail, when he's not, and THAT retardation is what my post was countering," don't you understand?
The students themselves are not under threat of going to jail. I shortened that to "not under threat" since they are not under direct threat.

There are other avenues where student behavior, if allowed to proceed unchecked, would threaten a school official with jail time, so there's nothing new with students being under threat of threatening.

Edit: Oops, I guess I shouldn't expect a serious response.

Did you go back and put that in because I didn't respond immediately to your post?????

What.
The.
Hell.

And in the absence of indirectly promoting a particular religion, we indirectly promote the idea that all religions are equally valid, or equally invalid.

Only for consideration.

 

[silverpig]

NO we do not have "freedom FROM" we have "freedom OF" meaning we can practice it without interference of the government.

you do not have freedom from it which would ban it in most places. you don't want to hear it? leave that place. if its your private business or home though you can tell them to get the fuck out. Now in goverment places its diffrent. There have been conflicting rulings on having prayer in school. the school can't enforce prayer (unless its a religous school) but they won't stop you from doing it (unless it interferes with class).


you are not forced into any religion (well parents can. but at 18 its up to you) by the goverment, school, or work.

What I'm sure he meant is you have freedom from government sanctioned religion.