Federal Court Overturns Voter enacted Ban on Affirmative Action

[Jhhnn]

Why don't post a link saying it included all minorities.

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[nehalem256]

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http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34257234&postcount=43

You mean except for men right?

Because women are a majority of the population and yet they benefit from AA ^_^

 

[Jhhnn]

Here is a link showing asian addmission skyrocketing after AA was banned.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/post-prop-209-asian-students-benefit.html?m=1

Here's the original source, showing that Asian admissions improved at the expense of black & hispanic students-

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/35n755gf#page-1

Total minority admissions remained basically unchanged. Keep 'em squabbling among themselves for the crumbs, allow the least objectionable to advance in a classic divide & conquer strategy.

 

[Jhhnn]

You mean except for men right?

Because women are a majority of the population and yet they benefit from AA ^_^

They were nonetheless widely discriminated against in the male dominated workplace, and still are to a lesser extent.

 

[Geosurface]

AA helps minorities who can't complete the coursework to the college's satisfaction Graduate from Med school now....

Yep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmA6Kdy12jU

(particularly around 13:00 mark)

 

[SheHateMe]

Learn what facts are, there are no facts in that article it is just an opinion piece.

Theres no facts in the article yet there is a "Works Cited" section.



And you have still posted nothing to support your claims that SE Asians weren't ever recipients of AA.

 

[zinfamous]

Since the Obamacare ruling, I was under the impression that judges weren't supposed to reverse democratically arrived-at laws. Oh well.

A better analogy would be the state's trying to ban gay marriage.

Putting to majority vote issues/legislation designed to protect the rights of minorities, is, in effect, against the constitution, and roundly rejects the principles for which this country was founded (you use that democracy word again--I suggest you examine more closely the pillars of our legislative process).

You can never expect to protect the civil rights of minorities if such rights are put to majority vote. This is patently absurd, and should be painfully obvious to any patriotic American.

/devil's advocate.

Now, I'm not a big fan of AA, and I think most on either side see its faults, but likewise, recognize the historic necessity of these policies and in some cases, the contemporary need for such institutions. We truly do not live in that utopia where we can expect all people of all classes to judge based on merit alone--the intent of AA being that the only way to bring disenfranchised classes out of poverty and obsolescence, is to create "beacons" within those communities of success and achievement--expected that this good will, when amplified, will create foundations for these communities to build upon. It is, certainly, a very good idea, but it can't fix these problems, not on its own.

 

[zinfamous]

what? where the fuck you pulling that 80% from? I find that highly suspect.

nehalem hates women.

He never shies away from an opportunity to drag them into any discussion, putting his blatant misogyny on full display. Best not to entertain him, really.

 

[Moonbeam]

-Stupid

-Petty

Your anger is causing you to project yourself on to others. Freud would probably say it had something to do with your mom. Anyway, don't let it get you down little buddy. If you want to keep putting arguments in the way of these conversations, I guess kids need to vent sometimes. What is it they say now... oh yeah, You mad bro?

Let's be clear. The point of my first post was to suggest that a day may come when it will be white people as a minority that will be the race most in need of affirmative action and that the irony of that situation will be amusing. Then somebody attacked me as finding racism funny which was completely insane since it's not the racism I found amusing but the irony that it may one day be whites who want protection from it while in the present work to destroy those protections. Now you, for reasons that are now much clearer attacked me as a Jehovah's Witness because of your imbecilic attempt to suggest that what I found amusing was actually funny haha, that the two words are identical in meaning, when amusing refers to a quite appreciation of irony and not a laughable event. You, like the moron you are tried to pretend that I chose to use the word amusing to differentiate my inner state as one of inner amusement rather than externalized laughter.

And the motivation for you attack is now clear. I scared the piss our of you because I know you hate yourself. You should know that childish reaction is more common than you can possibly imagine. And, by the way, being terrified always produces rage. But you aren't very subtle or self reflective so you wouldn't understand any of this, but I'm glad you were able to vent. Keep it up. It's the very path that leads to knowing how you really do feel.

You can start with the Jehovah thingi. What's your emotional connection to that?

 

[Moonbeam]

nehalem hates women.

He never shies away from an opportunity to drag them into any discussion, putting his blatant misogyny on full display. Best not to entertain him, really.

This has been obvious for probably a good year yet people still respond to him. He comes here to feed. Stop doing it.

 

[werepossum]

A better analogy would be the state's trying to ban gay marriage.

Putting to majority vote issues/legislation designed to protect the rights of minorities, is, in effect, against the constitution, and roundly rejects the principles for which this country was founded (you use that democracy word again--I suggest you examine more closely the pillars of our legislative process).

You can never expect to protect the civil rights of minorities if such rights are put to majority vote. This is patently absurd, and should be painfully obvious to any patriotic American.

/devil's advocate.

Now, I'm not a big fan of AA, and I think most on either side see its faults, but likewise, recognize the historic necessity of these policies and in some cases, the contemporary need for such institutions. We truly do not live in that utopia where we can expect all people of all classes to judge based on merit alone--the intent of AA being that the only way to bring disenfranchised classes out of poverty and obsolescence, is to create "beacons" within those communities of success and achievement--expected that this good will, when amplified, will create foundations for these communities to build upon. It is, certainly, a very good idea, but it can't fix these problems, not on its own.

Well said. Banning affirmative action is like overturning Obamacare - if you want it to work, you need to bring something better to the table.

Far too many times I've seen the bad side of affirmative action, where companies hire incompetent blacks because they have to have a certain percentage. That's bad business in my view. If you have to interview and test twenty black welders or five whites to get a good welder, and you have to hire a black welder, don't just assume they are all the same and will be a drain on the company and just hire the first you find, or the best of a handful. Interview the twenty until you find a good, qualified black candidate. Costs more, but in the end you'll have a productive employer who is happier in his job (because he's good at it), happier coworkers (because they don't have to pull his weight), and happier clients/customers (because they get a better quality product.) Assuming you can't find a qualified candidate of a particular racial background is just lazy, and as an employer you'll be happier in the end if you put in the extra work to do a good job of hiring.

And for a sizable company, grow your own. Spend some time and money developing your particular needs in your local school system and you won't have to hunt for qualified minority candidates, they'll be coming to you. Ergo you don't have to waste any time finding a qualified minority hire because you'll be hiring minorities all along, just like anyone else. And if you do a good job, your workforce quality will increase.

 

[zinfamous]

Well said. Banning affirmative action is like overturning Obamacare - if you want it to work, you need to bring something better to the table.

Far too many times I've seen the bad side of affirmative action, where companies hire incompetent blacks because they have to have a certain percentage. That's bad business in my view. If you have to interview and test twenty black welders or five whites to get a good welder, and you have to hire a black welder, don't just assume they are all the same and will be a drain on the company and just hire the first you find, or the best of a handful. Interview the twenty until you find a good, qualified black candidate. Costs more, but in the end you'll have a productive employer who is happier in his job (because he's good at it), happier coworkers (because they don't have to pull his weight), and happier clients/customers (because they get a better quality product.) Assuming you can't find a qualified candidate of a particular racial background is just lazy, and as an employer you'll be happier in the end if you put in the extra work to do a good job of hiring.

And for a sizable company, grow your own. Spend some time and money developing your particular needs in your local school system and you won't have to hunt for qualified minority candidates, they'll be coming to you. Ergo you don't have to waste any time finding a qualified minority hire because you'll be hiring minorities all along, just like anyone else. And if you do a good job, your workforce quality will increase.

Ah, see: so much that. I can't paint a picture of you werepossum, because sometimes you are raging libertarian anarchist and other times you are liberal progressive social reformer.

If I had a labor-oriented business, say, construction--I would skip interview requirements and just hire the first 20 (say I needed 20) Mexicans that came through the door.

call it racial profiling or racism, but god damn: I worked a few summers for our family friend's roofing company, and I never met or saw one of those guys that did not have a superior work ethic compared to anyone else. These guys, all they wanted to do, was do their job, do it well, always punctual, go home, and party at night. Come back again, do it the next day. They actually took pride in their work, and new how to have a good time with life at the same time.

 

[werepossum]

Ah, see: so much that. I can't paint a picture of you werepossum, because sometimes you are raging libertarian anarchist and other times you are liberal progressive social reformer.

If I had a labor-oriented business, say, construction--I would skip interview requirements and just hire the first 20 (say I needed 20) Mexicans that came through the door.

call it racial profiling or racism, but god damn: I worked a few summers for our family friend's roofing company, and I never met or saw one of those guys that did not have a superior work ethic compared to anyone else. These guys, all they wanted to do, was do their job, do it well, always punctual, go home, and party at night. Come back again, do it the next day. They actually took pride in their work, and new how to have a good time with life at the same time.

But I'm a RAGING liberal progressive social reformer! The one thing I never am, is moderate. Although if you notice, I seldom endorse government forcing employers to do these things, I just think it's good practice.

The construction companies will flat out tell you they could not survive without Mexicans. That is of course not true, but it is true that Mexicans have a work ethic that is far beyond our own, on average. Though of course, the term "Mexicans" here includes people from Honduras, Chile, etc. - many of whom would take great exception to be called Mexicans.

It's ironic and sad that we have this invasion of very willing unskilled and semi-skilled workers just when we're outsourcing the very jobs they need. Instead, they just drive down salaries. If we still had our old system of tariffs and our old manufacturing base with our invasion of illegals, we'd have the strongest economy in the world, even with the associated welfare costs. Or we would until we taught them about entitlement and positive rights.

 

[zinfamous]

But I'm a RAGING liberal progressive social reformer! The one thing I never am, is moderate. Although if you notice, I seldom endorse government forcing employers to do these things, I just think it's good practice.

The construction companies will flat out tell you they could not survive without Mexicans. That is of course not true, but it is true that Mexicans have a work ethic that is far beyond our own, on average. Though of course, the term "Mexicans" here includes people from Honduras, Chile, etc. - many of whom would take great exception to be called Mexicans.

It's ironic and sad that we have this invasion of very willing unskilled and semi-skilled workers just when we're outsourcing the very jobs they need. Instead, they just drive down salaries. If we still had our old system of tariffs and our old manufacturing base with our invasion of illegals, we'd have the strongest economy in the world, even with the associated welfare costs. Or we would until we taught them about entitlement and positive rights.

well, actually, when I say Mexicans, I mean Mexicans. I haven't really interacted with many Cubans or Dominicans or other Hispanics, so I'm not trying to generalize, just what I have known.

It's likely a product simply of where I am, as immigrants will localize in certain regions. I tended to be around Mexicans more often. Though I think pride and loyalty are general traits of all Hispanics. I observed a few years ago that I never see any homeless Hispanics, are any ever begging for money anywhere. Same with Asians. I think much it has to do with family--I don't see them ever letting a family member, however distantly related, subsisting on the street--and self-worth. Even friends will keep friends off of the street for a small bit of sacrifice (Shared living space).

 

[werepossum]

well, actually, when I say Mexicans, I mean Mexicans. I haven't really interacted with many Cubans or Dominicans or other Hispanics, so I'm not trying to generalize, just what I have known.

It's likely a product simply of where I am, as immigrants will localize in certain regions. I tended to be around Mexicans more often. Though I think pride and loyalty are general traits of all Hispanics. I observed a few years ago that I never see any homeless Hispanics, are any ever begging for money anywhere. Same with Asians. I think much it has to do with family--I don't see them ever letting a family member, however distantly related, subsisting on the street--and self-worth. Even friends will keep friends off of the street for a small bit of sacrifice (Shared living space).

Used to be that way for everyone. In the liberal women's groups' seminal studies of British poverty during the early 1900s, one question was why people continued to live in the ghettos where general health was so poor and child mortality so high. The answer was always that their family and friends were there. It wasn't sentimentality, it was a recognition that if hard times fell, friends and family were there and would do without a bit of what precious little they had to make sure you had food and heat. One could move away and have better quarters and better food, but among strangers if hard times hit you'd be out on your ear.

It's the same with most people today I think, except where drugs and thievery and mental illness break the chain of trust. If you're honest and trustworthy and you're around family or even good friends, you'll be taken in as long as you're actively trying to get back on your feet.

 

[stormkroe]

Let's be clear. The point of my first post was to suggest that a day may come when it will be white people as a minority that will be the race most in need of affirmative action and that the irony of that situation will be amusing. Then somebody attacked me as finding racism funny which was completely insane since it's not the racism I found amusing but the irony that it may one day be whites who want protection from it while in the present work to destroy those protections.

Nice back pedal. Your original defense was that you thought the racism was amusing, not funny. Not that you found the irony of the situation amusing.

Now you, for reasons that are now much clearer attacked me as a Jehovah's Witness because of your imbecilic attempt to suggest that what I found amusing was actually funny haha, that the two words are identical in meaning, when amusing refers to a quite appreciation of irony and not a laughable event.

I hope the reasons are much clearer because you were forced to actually read the garbage you hammer all over this forum. If not, I'll clarify. I called you out for being an ass to someone who, in turn, called you out for saying that racism is amusing. You see, while you think of yourself as 'witty' and 'edgy' with your comments, every once in a while you're going to get called out.

And the motivation for you attack is now clear. I scared the piss our of you because I know you hate yourself. You should know that childish reaction is more common than you can possibly imagine. And, by the way, being terrified always produces rage. But you aren't very subtle or self reflective so you wouldn't understand any of this, but I'm glad you were able to vent. Keep it up. It's the very path that leads to knowing how you really do feel.

You can start with the Jehovah thingi. What's your emotional connection to that?

Oh boy, now lets be honest here... have you every scared the piss out of anything in your life? I'll admit I'm scared that apparently kids can take a long long time to grow out childishness. Rather than taking your lumps, you try to skew what you said to mean something less dickish.

As far as Jehovah's Witnesses, they're just one of the many religions I've put a lot of study into. I'd be happy to talk to you about it, though this isn't probably the place. I'm gonna leave it at this, we've taken up too much of the posting already. Have fun with the last word and remember, if you think I'm being unfair, just laugh at my ignorance and don't rage. You'll be a much happier person

 

[Moonbeam]

stormkroe: Nice back pedal. Your original defense was that you thought the racism was amusing, not funny. Not that you found the irony of the situation amusing.

M: Wrong, and I said as much here:

"Oh no, amusing is something quite different than funny and as an idiot, you WOULD think it was THE RACISM I will find amusing."

In other words, no it wasn't the racism I found amusing but the irony if what I suggested may happen comes to pass. I made two points that racism isn't funny and what amused me wasn't racism but the vision of whites appealing to affirmative action in the future.

s: I hope the reasons are much clearer because you were forced to actually read the garbage you hammer all over this forum. If not, I'll clarify. I called you out for being an ass to someone who, in turn, called you out for saying that racism is amusing. You see, while you think of yourself as 'witty' and 'edgy' with your comments, every once in a while you're going to get called out.

M: I wasn't called out at all. Both you and he completely missed my point which, by the way, was obvious. There is nothing amusing or funny about racism but there is something amusing about irony, not funny haha, but amusing.

s: Oh boy, now lets be honest here... have you every scared the piss out of anything in your life? I'll admit I'm scared that apparently kids can take a long long time to grow out childishness. Rather than taking your lumps, you try to skew what you said to mean something less dickish.

M: No you are the one who is dickish because I never meant what you said I did.

s: As far as Jehovah's Witnesses, they're just one of the many religions I've put a lot of study into. I'd be happy to talk to you about it, though this isn't probably the place. I'm gonna leave it at this, we've taken up too much of the posting already. Have fun with the last word and remember, if you think I'm being unfair, just laugh at my ignorance and don't rage. You'll be a much happier person

M: I have no interest in laughing or raging. My interest is in telling you where you went off the rails. I hope that if you reread my post you will now see that what I referred to as amusing would be a future in which whites faced with racial discrimination may see affirmative action in a whole new light. Best wishes.....

 

[chucky2]

By hiring the most qualified people, of course, just like now. It will have transpired by some strange magic of numbers, that they will mostly all be people of color.

Haha, I love your humor. People of color might not find it so, but I like it. :thumbsup:

 

[DCal430]

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Please actually read what you post. It doesn't say any thing that you claim.