Fed Pledges Top $7.4 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Sweet goddamn Christ. I remember a handful of people screaming how we HAD to have the 700 B bailout. Well, since that time we've also had the auto companies come for a handout in addition to stagnant if not downward trending markets because the bailout ultimately did very little.

Now the Feds have pledged over 7 TRILLION dollars to keep the wheels rolling. This has actually went beyond any point of anger and is now in the realm of humorous fantasy. At this point its clear the Feds will just throw out however much monopoly money is asked of it.

And to top it off, they wont tell us what they are getting in return or where the money they hand out is going. Amazing. Next week I hope to see unicorns.....

Article

Fed Pledges Top $7.4 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit (Update1)

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. government is prepared to lend more than $7.4 trillion on behalf of American taxpayers, or half the value of everything produced in the nation last year, to rescue the financial system since the credit markets seized up 15 months ago.

The unprecedented pledge of funds includes $2.8 trillion already tapped by financial institutions in the biggest response to an economic emergency since the New Deal of the 1930s, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The commitment dwarfs the only plan approved by lawmakers, the Treasury Department?s $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program. Federal Reserve lending last week was 1,900 times the weekly average for the three years before the crisis.

When Congress approved the TARP on Oct. 3, Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson acknowledged the need for transparency and oversight. Now, as regulators commit far more money while refusing to disclose loan recipients or reveal the collateral they are taking in return, some Congress members are calling for the Fed to be reined in.

?Whether it?s lending or spending, it?s tax dollars that are going out the window and we end up holding collateral we don?t know anything about,? said Congressman Scott Garrett, a New Jersey Republican who serves on the House Financial Services Committee. ?The time has come that we consider what sort of limitations we should be placing on the Fed so that authority returns to elected officials as opposed to appointed ones.?

Too Big to Fail

Bloomberg News tabulated data from the Fed, Treasury and Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and interviewed regulatory officials, economists and academic researchers to gauge the full extent of the government?s rescue effort.

The bailout includes a Fed program to buy as much as $2.4 trillion in short-term notes, called commercial paper, that companies use to pay bills, begun Oct. 27, and $1.4 trillion from the FDIC to guarantee bank-to-bank loans, started Oct. 14.

William Poole, former president of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, said the two programs are unlikely to lose money. The bigger risk comes from rescuing companies perceived as ?too big to fail,? he said.

The government committed $29 billion to help engineer the takeover in March of Bear Stearns Cos. by New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co. and $122.8 billion in addition to TARP allocations to bail out New York-based American International Group Inc., once the world?s largest insurer. Yesterday, Citigroup Inc. received $306 billion of government guarantees for troubled mortgages and toxic assets. The Treasury Department also will inject $20 billion into the bank after its stock fell 60 percent last week.

?No question there is some credit risk there,? Poole said.

Exposure

Congressman Darrell Issa, a California Republican on the Financial Services Committee, said risk is lurking in the programs that Poole thinks are safe.

?The thing that people don?t understand is it?s not how likely that the exposure becomes a reality, but what if it does?? Issa said. ?There?s no transparency to it so who?s to say they?re right??

The worst financial crisis in two generations has erased $23 trillion, or 38 percent, of the value of the world?s companies and brought down three of the biggest Wall Street firms.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average through Friday is down 38 percent since the beginning of the year and 43 percent from its peak on Oct. 9, 2007. The S&P 500 fell 45 percent from the beginning of the year through Friday and 49 percent from its peak on Oct. 9, 2007. The Nikkei 225 Index has fallen 46 percent from the beginning of the year through Friday and 57 percent from its most recent peak of 18,261.98 on July 9, 2007. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. is down 78 percent, to $53.31, on Friday from its peak of $247.92 on Oct. 31, 2007, and 75 percent this year.

?Snookered?

Regulators hope the rescue will contain the damage and keep banks providing the credit that is the lifeblood of the U.S. economy.

Most of the spending programs are run out of the New York Fed, whose president, Timothy Geithner, is said to be President- elect Barack Obama?s choice to be Treasury Secretary.

The money that?s been pledged is equivalent to $24,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. It?s nine times what the U.S. has spent so far on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Congressional Budget Office figures. It could pay off more than half the country?s mortgages.

?It?s unprecedented,? said Bob Eisenbeis, chief monetary economist at Vineland, New Jersey-based Cumberland Advisors Inc. and an economist for the Atlanta Fed for 10 years until January. ?The backlash has begun already. Congress is taking a lot of hits from their constituents because they got snookered on the TARP big time. There?s a lot of supposedly smart people who look to be totally incompetent and it?s all going to fall on the taxpayer.?

New Deal

President Franklin D. Roosevelt?s New Deal of the 1930s, when almost 10,000 banks failed and there was no mechanism to bolster them with cash, is the only rival to the government?s current response. The savings and loan bailout of the 1990s cost $209.5 billion in inflation-adjusted numbers, of which $173 billion came from taxpayers, according to a July 1996 report by the U.S. General Accounting Office.

The 1979 U.S. government bailout of Chrysler consisted of bond guarantees, adjusted for inflation, of $4.2 billion, according to a Heritage Foundation report.

The commitment of public money is appropriate to the peril, said Ethan Harris, co-head of U.S. economic research at Barclays Capital Inc. and a former economist at the New York Fed. U.S. financial firms have taken writedowns and losses of $666.1 billion since the beginning of 2007, according to Bloomberg data.

?This is the worst capital markets crisis in modern history,? Harris said. ?So you have the biggest intervention in modern history.?

Federal Lawsuit

Bloomberg has requested details of Fed lending under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act and filed a federal lawsuit against the central bank Nov. 7 seeking to force disclosure of borrower banks and their collateral.

Collateral is an asset pledged to a lender in the event a loan payment isn?t made.

?Some have asked us to reveal the names of the banks that are borrowing, how much they are borrowing, what collateral they are posting,? Bernanke said Nov. 18 to the House Financial Services Committee. ?We think that?s counterproductive.?

The Fed should account for the collateral it takes in exchange for loans to banks, said Paul Kasriel, chief economist at Chicago-based Northern Trust Co. and a former research economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.

?There is a lack of transparency here and, given that the Fed is taking on a huge amount of credit risk now, it would seem to me as a taxpayer there should be more transparency,? Kasriel said.

$4.4 Trillion

Bernanke?s Fed is responsible for $4.4 trillion of pledges, or 60 percent of the total commitment of $7.4 trillion, based on data compiled by Bloomberg concerning U.S. bailout steps started a year ago.

?Too often the public is focused on the wrong piece of that number, the $700 billion that Congress approved,? said J.D. Foster, a former staff member of the Council of Economic Advisers who is now a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. ?The other areas are quite a bit larger.?

The Fed?s rescue attempts began last December with the creation of the Term Auction Facility to allow lending to dealers for collateral. After Bear Stearns?s collapse in March, the central bank started making direct loans to securities firms at the same discount rate it charges commercial banks, which take customer deposits.

In the three years before the crisis, such average weekly borrowing by banks was $48 million, according to the central bank. Last week it was $91.5 billion.

Lehman Failure

The failure of a second securities firm, Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., in September, led to the creation of the Commercial Paper Funding Facility and the Money Market Investor Funding Facility, or MMIFF. The two programs, which have pledged $2.3 trillion, are designed to restore calm in the money markets, which deal in certificates of deposit, commercial paper and Treasury bills.

?Money markets seized up after Lehman failed,? said Neal Soss, chief economist at Credit Suisse Group in New York and a former aide to Fed chief Paul Volcker. ?Lehman failing made a lot of subsequent actions necessary.?

The FDIC, chaired by Sheila Bair, is contributing 20 percent of total rescue commitments. The FDIC?s $1.4 trillion in guarantees will amount to a bank subsidy of as much as $54 billion over three years, or $18 billion a year, because borrowers will pay a lower interest rate than they would on the open market, according to Raghu Sundurum and Viral Acharya of New York University and the London Business School.

Bank Subsidy

Congress and the Treasury have ponied up $892 billion in TARP and other funding, or 12 percent.

The Federal Housing Administration, overseen by Department of Housing and Urban Development Secretary Steven Preston, was given the authority to guarantee $300 billion of mortgages, or about 4 percent of the total commitment, with its Hope for Homeowners program, designed to keep distressed borrowers from foreclosure.

Most of the federal guarantees reduce interest rates on loans to banks and securities firms, which would create a subsidy of at least $6.6 billion annually for the financial industry, according to data compiled by Bloomberg comparing rates charged by the Fed against market interest currently paid by banks.

Not included in the calculation of pledged funds is an FDIC proposal to prevent foreclosures by guaranteeing modifications on $444 billion in mortgages at an expected cost of $24.4 billion to be paid from the TARP, according to FDIC spokesman David Barr. The Treasury Department hasn?t approved the program.

Automakers

Bernanke and Paulson, former chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs, have also promised as much as $200 billion to shore up nationalized mortgage finance companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The FDIC arranged for $139 billion in loan guarantees for General Electric Co.?s finance unit.

The tally doesn?t include money to General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC. Obama has said he favors financial assistance to keep them from collapse.

Paulson told the House Financial Services Committee Nov. 18 that the $250 billion already allocated to banks through the TARP is an investment, not an expenditure.

?I think it would be extraordinarily unusual if the government did not get that money back and more,? Paulson said.

?We Haircut It?

In his Nov. 18 testimony, Bernanke told the House Financial Services Committee that the central bank wouldn?t lose money.

?We take collateral, we haircut it, it is a short-term loan, it is very safe, we have never lost a penny in these various lending programs,? he said.

A haircut refers to the practice of lending less money than the collateral?s current market value.

Requiring the Fed to disclose loan recipients might set off panic, said David Tobin, principal of New York-based loan-sale consultants and investment bank Mission Capital Advisors LLC.

?If you mark to market today, the banking system is bankrupt,? Tobin said. ?So what do you do? You try to keep it going as best you can.?

?Mark to market? means adjusting the value of an asset, such as a mortgage-backed security, to reflect current prices.

Some of the bailout assistance could come from tax breaks in the future. The Treasury Department changed the tax code on Sept. 30 to allow banks to expand the deductions on the losses banks they were buying, according to Robert Willens, a former Lehman Brothers tax and accounting analyst who teaches at Columbia University Business School in New York.

?Wells Fargo Notice?

Wells Fargo & Co., which is buying Charlotte, North Carolina-based Wachovia Corp., will be able to deduct $22 billion, Willens said. Adding in other banks, the code change will cost $29 billion, he said.

?The rule is now popularly known among tax lawyers as the ?Wells Fargo Notice,?? Willens said.

The regulation was changed to make it easier for healthy banks to buy troubled ones, said Treasury Department spokesman Andrew DeSouza.

House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank said he was angry that banks used the money for acquisitions.

?The only purpose for this money is to lend,? said Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat. ?It?s not for dividends, it?s not for purchases of new banks, it?s not for bonuses. There better be a showing of increased lending roughly in the amount of the capital infusions? or Congress may not approve the second half of the TARP money.

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
And the Home Builders are asking for thier handout too.....

Article

Builders Make Plea for Federal Aid
Critics Warn That Propping Up Housing Demand Will Only Prolong Market's Woes

Struggling U.S. auto makers left Washington empty-handed after weeks of pleading for a handout, but that hasn't deterred home builders from stepping up to lobby Congress for help.

But any federal assistance would require policy makers to figure out how to stimulate demand for housing -- the problem at the root of the global financial meltdown -- without artificially propping up home values.

The builders' lobby is ramping up its sales pitch for a $250 billion stimulus package called "Fix Housing First," arguing that financial markets won't recover until home prices stop falling. They are calling for a generous tax credit for home purchases and a federal subsidy that would lower a homeowner's mortgage rate.

Congress resisted a similar effort to pass a larger tax credit earlier this year, instead creating a $7,500 credit for new-home purchases that had to be paid back over 15 years, effectively extending an interest-free loan.

Builders are promoting the campaign with full-page newspaper advertisements, but face an uphill battle, with critics suggesting the proposal is too expensive and that it too heavily promotes home purchases rather than addressing loan modifications for delinquent homeowners.

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
This reminds me of that Futurama episode wherein the Professor accidentally destabilizes space-time by using chronitons to create a team of atomic supermen to take on the Harlem Globetrotters. The plot is convoluted, but at some point, in order to stop time-space from destroying civilization as we know it, the Professor and "Bubblegum" Tate of the Globetrotters propose to build a "bad-ass gravity pump" to reposition some stars and fix the problem. The only issue remaining is that building the pump would require all of the world's money. A short blip forward in time, Nixon hands over a check reading "All the world's money" and the gravity pump gets built.

Long story short, it's kinda like that.

:p
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Where are LK and Evan to tell us that this is sound monetary policy and that we just don't understand like they do?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,493
7,547
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Sweet goddamn Christ. I remember a handful of people screaming how we HAD to have the 700 B bailout. Well, since that time we've also had the auto companies come for a handout in addition to stagnant if not downward trending markets because the bailout ultimately did very little.

Now the Feds have pledged over 7 TRILLION dollars to keep the wheels rolling. This has actually went beyond any point of anger and is now in the realm of humorous fantasy. At this point its clear the Feds will just throw out however much monopoly money is asked of it.

And to top it off, they wont tell us what they are getting in return or where the money they hand out is going. Amazing. Next week I hope to see unicorns.....

This is why they will cause the greater depression. Only way it can get worse is if civil unrest breaks out but they are sure trying their damnedest to see it come to fruition.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
No wonder James Baker wants a 'shared' federal administration between the President and Obama before 1/20. When this is all over the President and certain federal 'adminicrats' will be tarred and feathered.

New Fed Collateral Margins

12/16/2005: The margin for group deposited Commercial and Agricultural Loans that are Normal Risk Rated changed from 80% to 75%.

09/22/2006: A 97% margin was established for Bankers Acceptances, Certificates of Deposit, and Commercial Paper with market prices and a duration of 0-5 years.

8/17/2007: Parenthetical clarifications were made.

12/14/2007: Recyclable aluminum cans and plastic bottles accepted at 85% of value. Cardboard suitable for housing at 150% of value.

3/22/2008: IOUs from old college roommates (up to 30 years) at 90%. Estimated change in sofas, car seats and corporate jets accepted as collateral at 115% of value.

5/07/2008: Credit card debt and car loans accepted at a ratio determined by their value versus the market cost of toilet paper.

8/19/2008: Agricultural produce and pencils marketable on street corners at 160% of value.

11/28/2008: Got any dreams? We'll give you 12% on them ...
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Where are LK and Evan to tell us that this is sound monetary policy and that we just don't understand like they do?

What is the cost of doing nothing?

as far as the "greater depression", that's unlikely. The Fed, at this point, is acting as a lender of last resort, which it was envisioned to do, to aid in liquidity. Once the market is rational again these amounts will be repaid.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Where are LK and Evan to tell us that this is sound monetary policy and that we just don't understand like they do?

What is the cost of doing nothing?

as far as the "greater depression", that's unlikely. The Fed, at this point, is acting as a lender of last resort, which it was envisioned to do, to aid in liquidity. Once the market is rational again these amounts will be repaid.

The cost of doing nothing is failed business. The cost of what we are doing could be failed government.

I'll take the loss of a sector of the loss of my country thank you very much.
 

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
1,513
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Where are LK and Evan to tell us that this is sound monetary policy and that we just don't understand like they do?

lols

Don't worry. LK will find some way to justify this madness. He worships the printing press.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Where are LK and Evan to tell us that this is sound monetary policy and that we just don't understand like they do?

What is the cost of doing nothing?

as far as the "greater depression", that's unlikely. The Fed, at this point, is acting as a lender of last resort, which it was envisioned to do, to aid in liquidity. Once the market is rational again these amounts will be repaid.

The cost of doing nothing is failed business. The cost of what we are doing could be failed government.

I'll take the loss of a sector of the loss of my country thank you very much.

The cost of doing nothing is a failed *WORLD ECONOMY*. The cost of what we are doing is a temporary bridge loan.

Trust me, I don't like this situation more than the next guy. I fricking can't stand the idiots who took these bets.

However, I also realize that letting the economy crater affects the whole world and will drive us into a depression quickly.

I think the people here still haven't realized that "capitalism" is another word for human irrationality. Humans are never rational and over correct in all circumstances.

Letting one large bank, such as Citi, fail, would cause a panic (irrationality), further eroding the system and leading to worse circumstances

Everybody would be touched by this. From the janitor to the factory worker. No BUSINESS*ES* would be able to sustain themselves.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Originally posted by: Specop 007
The cost of doing nothing is failed business. The cost of what we are doing could be a failed currency.

I'll take the loss of a sector over the loss of my country thank you very much.

Fixed
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

The cost of doing nothing is a failed *WORLD ECONOMY*. The cost of what we are doing is a temporary bridge loan.

Trust me, I don't like this situation more than the next guy. I fricking can't stand the idiots who took these bets.

However, I also realize that letting the economy crater affects the whole world and will drive us into a depression quickly.

I think the people here still haven't realized that "capitalism" is another word for human irrationality. Humans are never rational and over correct in all circumstances.

Letting one large bank, such as Citi, fail, would cause a panic (irrationality), further eroding the system and leading to worse circumstances

Everybody would be touched by this. From the janitor to the factory worker. No BUSINESS*ES* would be able to sustain themselves.

Not necesarily. Thats just what the fear mongers want people to think. To say no business should be allowed to fail is assinine. This certainly isnt the first time something like this has happened, and most likely it wont be the last. The difference is rather then let a sector suffer (banking) we're sharing the pain and shuffling the wealth to a handful of Chosen Ones. Granted, no one knows who the hell those Chosen Ones are because the Feds wont say. Nor will they say what they are getting in return.

All We the People are told is it "has to be done" and we "cant let it fail" so shut the hell up.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

The cost of doing nothing is a failed *WORLD ECONOMY*. The cost of what we are doing is a temporary bridge loan.

Trust me, I don't like this situation more than the next guy. I fricking can't stand the idiots who took these bets.

However, I also realize that letting the economy crater affects the whole world and will drive us into a depression quickly.

I think the people here still haven't realized that "capitalism" is another word for human irrationality. Humans are never rational and over correct in all circumstances.

Letting one large bank, such as Citi, fail, would cause a panic (irrationality), further eroding the system and leading to worse circumstances

Everybody would be touched by this. From the janitor to the factory worker. No BUSINESS*ES* would be able to sustain themselves.

Not necesarily. Thats just what the fear mongers want people to think. To say no business should be allowed to fail is assinine. This certainly isnt the first time something like this has happened, and most likely it wont be the last. The difference is rather then let a sector suffer (banking) we're sharing the pain and shuffling the wealth to a handful of Chosen Ones. Granted, no one knows who the hell those Chosen Ones are because the Feds wont say. Nor will they say what they are getting in return.

All We the People are told is it "has to be done" and we "cant let it fail" so shut the hell up.


Ok, so give me a timeline of what you think would happen if Citibank were allowed to fail. What would happen to lending and business in the next day, week, 2 weeks, month, year, 5 years, and decade.

Incorporate commercial spending, consumer spending, jobs, economic growth. Keep in mind human irrationality, using that to determine both borrowing and lending. Then apply that to the banking system as a whole and the resulting influences upon the first sentances factors.

Then extrapolate that to the global economy, consider the flow of goods and services needed and supplied on a global level.

This ought to be good. I'm sure we'll get a 2-page fully rationalized and outline response. I'm looking forward to a great education from an economics master.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Ok, so give me a timeline of what you think would happen if Citibank were allowed to fail. What would happen to lending and business in the next day, week, 2 weeks, month, year, 5 years, and decade.

Incorporate commercial spending, consumer spending, jobs, economic growth. Keep in mind human irrationality, using that to determine both borrowing and lending. Then apply that to the banking system as a whole and the resulting influences upon the first sentances factors.

Then extrapolate that to the global economy, consider the flow of goods and services needed and supplied on a global level.

This ought to be good. I'm sure we'll get a 2-page fully rationalized and outline response. I'm looking forward to a great education from an economics master.

You've never been able to supply one and your the self proclaimed expert. Funny that.

In fact, NO ONE has ever given what you want. Because frnakly, no one knows and many arent convinced it would be the end times some say it would be.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

The cost of doing nothing is a failed *WORLD ECONOMY*. The cost of what we are doing is a temporary bridge loan.

Trust me, I don't like this situation more than the next guy. I fricking can't stand the idiots who took these bets.

However, I also realize that letting the economy crater affects the whole world and will drive us into a depression quickly.

I think the people here still haven't realized that "capitalism" is another word for human irrationality. Humans are never rational and over correct in all circumstances.

Letting one large bank, such as Citi, fail, would cause a panic (irrationality), further eroding the system and leading to worse circumstances

Everybody would be touched by this. From the janitor to the factory worker. No BUSINESS*ES* would be able to sustain themselves.

Not necesarily. Thats just what the fear mongers want people to think. To say no business should be allowed to fail is assinine. This certainly isnt the first time something like this has happened, and most likely it wont be the last. The difference is rather then let a sector suffer (banking) we're sharing the pain and shuffling the wealth to a handful of Chosen Ones. Granted, no one knows who the hell those Chosen Ones are because the Feds wont say. Nor will they say what they are getting in return.

All We the People are told is it "has to be done" and we "cant let it fail" so shut the hell up.
Yep, all LK is spewing is socialist bullsht. Hell, give at least some of that money back to the people and they might feel a little better about lining the rich schmucks' coffers. Case in point: the AIG schmucks who are getting bonuses off the people's money.

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Ok, so give me a timeline of what you think would happen if Citibank were allowed to fail. What would happen to lending and business in the next day, week, 2 weeks, month, year, 5 years, and decade.

Incorporate commercial spending, consumer spending, jobs, economic growth. Keep in mind human irrationality, using that to determine both borrowing and lending. Then apply that to the banking system as a whole and the resulting influences upon the first sentances factors.

Then extrapolate that to the global economy, consider the flow of goods and services needed and supplied on a global level.

This ought to be good. I'm sure we'll get a 2-page fully rationalized and outline response. I'm looking forward to a great education from an economics master.

You've never been able to supply one and your the self proclaimed expert. Funny that.

In fact, NO ONE has ever given what you want. Because frnakly, no one knows and many arent convinced it would be the end times some say it would be.

as I knew what would happen. A fucking cop-out. You're on here as a wannabe expert spewing bullshit but you're "knowledge" is less than veneer thick.
 

Dufusyte

Senior member
Jul 7, 2000
659
0
0
The cost of doing nothing is bad businesses fail. Those who entrusted their money to bad businesses lose. And everyone learns a lesson and gets wiser.

The cost of intervening is: bad businesses stay afloat, people learn that folly is rewarded by bailout, and we continue being irresponsible (plus our children are doomed to pay for it all).
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

The cost of doing nothing is a failed *WORLD ECONOMY*. The cost of what we are doing is a temporary bridge loan.

Trust me, I don't like this situation more than the next guy. I fricking can't stand the idiots who took these bets.

However, I also realize that letting the economy crater affects the whole world and will drive us into a depression quickly.

I think the people here still haven't realized that "capitalism" is another word for human irrationality. Humans are never rational and over correct in all circumstances.

Letting one large bank, such as Citi, fail, would cause a panic (irrationality), further eroding the system and leading to worse circumstances

Everybody would be touched by this. From the janitor to the factory worker. No BUSINESS*ES* would be able to sustain themselves.

Not necesarily. Thats just what the fear mongers want people to think. To say no business should be allowed to fail is assinine. This certainly isnt the first time something like this has happened, and most likely it wont be the last. The difference is rather then let a sector suffer (banking) we're sharing the pain and shuffling the wealth to a handful of Chosen Ones. Granted, no one knows who the hell those Chosen Ones are because the Feds wont say. Nor will they say what they are getting in return.

All We the People are told is it "has to be done" and we "cant let it fail" so shut the hell up.
Yep, all LK is spewing is socialist bullsht. Hell, give at least some of that money back to the people and they might feel a little better about lining the rich schmucks' coffers. Case in point: the AIG schmucks who are getting bonuses off the people's money.

Isn't letting the system fail and the world take the head, socialism? Distributed costs.

I could go on for a day about AIG but you'd still not get it.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Ok, so give me a timeline of what you think would happen if Citibank were allowed to fail. What would happen to lending and business in the next day, week, 2 weeks, month, year, 5 years, and decade.

Incorporate commercial spending, consumer spending, jobs, economic growth. Keep in mind human irrationality, using that to determine both borrowing and lending. Then apply that to the banking system as a whole and the resulting influences upon the first sentances factors.

Then extrapolate that to the global economy, consider the flow of goods and services needed and supplied on a global level.

This ought to be good. I'm sure we'll get a 2-page fully rationalized and outline response. I'm looking forward to a great education from an economics master.

You've never been able to supply one and your the self proclaimed expert. Funny that.

In fact, NO ONE has ever given what you want. Because frnakly, no one knows and many arent convinced it would be the end times some say it would be.

as I knew what would happen. A fucking cop-out. You're on here as a wannabe expert spewing bullshit but you're "knowledge" is less than veneer thick.

Well I'll make it easy.

What happened with the last few banks that have failed? If we draw on history to determine what would happen with Citi......OH HEY!! The sun would come up tomorrow....Amazing.

As i said, for the self proclaimed expert your surely short on facts.

We'll see how many want those Treasury Notes after this.....
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Dufusyte
The cost of doing nothing is bad businesses fail. Those who entrusted their money to bad businesses lose. And everyone learns a lesson and gets wiser.

The cost of intervening is: bad businesses stay afloat, people learn that folly is rewarded by bailout, and we continue being irresponsible (plus our children are doomed to pay for it all).

Ohhh, so it's only bad businesses that fail? What about the good businesses that cannot expand, or ones that have derivative effects from the "bad" business, resulting in a slowdown of the "good" business. Then those people get laid off.

I love how everybody thinks that the world silos "good" and "bad" into simple categories with perfect rationality and reason.