FDA to reevaluate the use of opiate medications

[Darwin333]

I shouldn't have jumped, but it's a difficult thing to know what's best for someone and have your hands tied by stupidity. It really doesn't sit well. We do a rather good job of profiling though. After awhile one gets to know who is going to ask for what and if they are going to abuse it. I did get hoaxed recently though. We had a couple who was stealing blanks between rx pads and did a first rate job of making counterfeit prescriptions. It was always for Oxycontin (the street value of Oxys is about a dollar per MG.) Over the course of a year they got close to 2 mil worth until this past week when we noted something that allowed us to realize what was going on. They are on the run now I believe and warrants are out. These people should be flogged.

Yes they should be flogged but as I said, doctors should not be hamstrung in how they treat patients to the severe detriment of that patients lifestyle because of those assholes. I would honestly rather see the pills sold over the counter than what is in the op implemented. While most will argue that the latter isn't a good solution it sure beats screwing over the sick and having providers risk their careers and own livelihoods in order to treat a patient the best way they know....

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Very true and it sort of goes along with my point. They are taking something that nature made and deriving an inferior product from it. All the money stuff you just posted. I assume they make a lot more money selling you 3-4 pills a day than a single pill per day. I also assume they make a lot more money by having the huge variety of pills to sell.

Regardless, it is absurdly fucked up that such an easy and much more effective treatment is barely even known in the Western world when its been used for friggen forever and could be cheaper than dirt. I am all for capitalism and people making money but something is very wrong with this.

I've always thought that one of the most valuable things the government can do is fund basic research and development. If there is a way to produce energy for the equivalent of 10 dollars per BBL we'll never see it because it's against business sense to lower the cost of something when a higher does just fine. Cheaper to buy competing technologies or patents.

Likewise the same with medicines. There are a number of natural entities which show some promise, however the regs and IP law effectively prevents their being researched. Along with energy technology I'd like to see things which are basically unpatentable examined. The results are released licensed free for anyone to make. Then it's a matter of marketing and production and that's where the private sector can take over. It seems a complementary strategy.

 

[Darwin333]

Thebaine is the other one. It's the alkaloid responsible for the stimulate effect that some opiate/opiods have. It's why some prefer Oxy to Morphine.

Thats the one. So Oxy has thebaine in it?

What I would really love to know is why it lasted all day long. Was it the magical natural combination of the three? Perhaps another component that we aren't currently talking about? At first he got a little itchy but didn't have the "loaded" feeling he would get off some of the stronger opiates he was prescribed which would make me think the dosage wasn't extremely high.

 

[nanette1985]

Thats the one. So Oxy has thebaine in it?

What I would really love to know is why it lasted all day long. Was it the magical natural combination of the three? Perhaps another component that we aren't currently talking about? At first he got a little itchy but didn't have the "loaded" feeling he would get off some of the stronger opiates he was prescribed which would make me think the dosage wasn't extremely high.

Poppy seed tea is quite well known. Poppy pods are still easily available. Buying them last time I did it is legal. Making an infusion (not tea) is not legal.

The infusion is not the same every time - it varies in strength and effect by what kind of pods you're getting. what variety, how old, how they were dried, how they're prepared for sale, how you make the infusion. Also how your system responds to them. How familiar your system is to the stuff. What else you have in your system. The skill of the infusion maker. Much like you wouldn't go out to the garden and brew up your own digitalis from foxglove and expect to treat your heart problems.

I grew up in a traditional Mennonite community and my grandmother knew all sorts of remedies. We grew poppies on our farm and dried them for my grandmother. I don't have her knowledge or her skill but I know she did a lot of good. And it's not a good idea to mess around with things like that if you don't know what you're doing. like your friend. Hope he's doing okay.

 

[CycloWizard]

So I guess this means you're adamantly opposed to voter ID laws.

That's one of the worst non sequiturs I've ever come across. I can't even guess which chasm of logic you leaped to link the two.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That's one of the worst non sequiturs I've ever come across. I can't even guess which chasm of logic you leaped to link the two.

What's nice about his approach is that it doesn't depend on whether the contention cited is true or not. I think we eliminated corruption as an issue except for the few who are active criminals receiving money from those they supply with prescriptions. Still it has nothing to do with anything he said, it's so inane it's elegant. Well to some I guess.

 

[xj0hnx]

Thats the one. So Oxy has thebaine in it?

What I would really love to know is why it lasted all day long. Was it the magical natural combination of the three? Perhaps another component that we aren't currently talking about? At first he got a little itchy but didn't have the "loaded" feeling he would get off some of the stronger opiates he was prescribed which would make me think the dosage wasn't extremely high.

Both of the 'codones are Thebaine derivatives. As far as the pod tea, my guess is that the raw alkaloids have a much longer half life than the pharmaceutical derivatives, as well as you getting all the alkaloids versus a single isolated one.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Both of the 'codones are Thebaine derivatives. As far as the pod tea, my guess is that the raw alkaloids have a much longer half life than the pharmaceutical derivatives, as well as you getting all the alkaloids versus a single isolated one.

Thebaine derivatives, but not thebaine. Thebaine has little to no analgesic effects although one of the stereoisomers has some mild pain relieving properties. As you say thebaine itself is stimulatory in nature similar to strychnine and is also poisonous. If given in doses which provide sufficient pain relief the side effect is death. Not used much.

 

[Darwin333]

Poppy seed tea is quite well known. Poppy pods are still easily available. Buying them last time I did it is legal. Making an infusion (not tea) is not legal.

The infusion is not the same every time - it varies in strength and effect by what kind of pods you're getting. what variety, how old, how they were dried, how they're prepared for sale, how you make the infusion. Also how your system responds to them. How familiar your system is to the stuff. What else you have in your system. The skill of the infusion maker. Much like you wouldn't go out to the garden and brew up your own digitalis from foxglove and expect to treat your heart problems.

I grew up in a traditional Mennonite community and my grandmother knew all sorts of remedies. We grew poppies on our farm and dried them for my grandmother. I don't have her knowledge or her skill but I know she did a lot of good. And it's not a good idea to mess around with things like that if you don't know what you're doing. like your friend. Hope he's doing okay.

He is doing outstanding. Relatively pain free and only requires the very very occasional vicodin (maybe a few a month). The poppy tea (not seeds but the actual poppy pods) gave him a year of high quality life that he wouldn't have otherwise had due to, at least in his opinion, the .govs pressure on doctors who prescribe opiates to people who actually need them, the hoops you have to jump through to get them, and then being treated like/looked at like a junkie. The tea (or infusion as you call it, whats the difference btw?) had none of those problems, was more effective, and was cheaper even though he had insurance. As I said before, something is very wrong with that especially when you consider that all of the opiates they prescribe come from the same plant.

 

[Darwin333]

Both of the 'codones are Thebaine derivatives. As far as the pod tea, my guess is that the raw alkaloids have a much longer half life than the pharmaceutical derivatives, as well as you getting all the alkaloids versus a single isolated one.

So basically the pharmacutical industry made synthetic forms of those alkaloids which don't work as well and have vastly shorter half lifes instead of just leaving it the hell alone? Nice....

And isn't codeine basically converted (not sure of the actual name) into morphine by the body? I have heard that from multiple people that seemed to know a lot about the subject but it always confused me. Shouldn't the effects be basically the same if that was the case?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So basically the pharmacutical industry made synthetic forms of those alkaloids which don't work as well and have vastly shorter half lifes instead of just leaving it the hell alone? Nice....

And isn't codeine basically converted (not sure of the actual name) into morphine by the body? I have heard that from multiple people that seemed to know a lot about the subject but it always confused me. Shouldn't the effects be basically the same if that was the case?

It's not quite that way. There is no upper limit on dosing Oxycontin. Yes taking an overdose will lead to respiratory arrest and death, but the body metabolizes and eliminates opiates and opioids faster over time. I've seen people taking doses you'd think would kill a horse and they're walking about. As I noted thebaine isn't just useless, it's the most toxic of the lot and don't think "makes you sick". Think poison. Strychnine, arsenic, cyanide.

Then there's the side effects. From Wiki, and it's correct.

In 2001, the European Association for Palliative Care recommended that oral oxycodone could be taken as a second-line alternative to oral morphine for cancer pain.[9] There is no evidence that any opioids are superior to morphine in relieving the pain of cancer, and no controlled trials have shown oxycodone to be superior to morphine.[10] However, compared to morphine, oxycodone causes less respiratory depression, sedation, pruritus, and nausea. As a result, it is generally better tolerated than morphine.

Some people take morphine and wretch uncontrollably. It's pretty damned nasty when it happens to someone who needs pain relief. If it weren't for some of the synthetics they'd either have to suffer pain or insufferable nausea and vomiting. Fortunately there are other options and enough of them that usually something which works can be found.