Are you really that callous spidey, or just trying to appear tough? I'd cry you a river if someone blew your face off because you went to the store at the wrong time. Your attitude reminds me of why I'm ashamed at times to belong to the human race.
WOW I KNOW THAT GUY!!! That is my brother's girlfriend's cousin. I know it's not exactly a close relationship....but still that is weird to see it be pointed out by someone else.
BTW....He is in stable condition with just a broken jaw.
BTW....He is in stable condition with just a broken jaw.
NFS4
No Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,636
- 47
- 91
<< I dont think they acted wrongly, there info was wrong thay thought it was a badguy reaching for a gun.. 95% of all agents would of done the same thing. >>
They TOLD him to get out of the car (can't do that w/o taking off your seatbelt)...looks like they WANTED a reason to fire. And an ASSAULT rifle to the face?? Sounds a bit excessive to me. But hey, what do I know.
<< was shot while reaching to unfasten his seat belt to comply with an agent's order to get out of the car. >>
pyonir
Lifer
- Dec 18, 2001
- 40,856
- 321
- 126
<< it is a shameful tragedy and i am sure the two agents that acted wrongly will be dealt with
I dont think they acted wrongly, there info was wrong thay thought it was a badguy reaching for a gun.. 95% of all agents would of done the same thing. >>
i actually know a few agents. 95%?! are you kidding me? wrongly maybe was the incorrect word to put here. prematurely fits better. lethal force was not permitted from the information in the article. therefore the agent acted prematurely in shooting the victim.
<< .and bad aim to boot! Go back to the shooting range a$$hole!!!! >>
bad aim? law enforcement agents are taught to incipacitate. sitting in a car i am sure the agent didn't have much to shoot at other than his head. how do you figure that is bad aim? a bad decision to shoot yes, bad aim no.
bunker
Lifer
- Apr 23, 2001
- 10,572
- 0
- 71
<< I can't believe the FBI hasn't somehow reassured the family that the medical bills will be taken care of... man, they shot him while he was complying with orders to get out of the car (according to the family's attorney). >>
They're trying to cover their rears in the event of a civil suit. Offer to pay the bills now and it's like saying yeah, we screwed up, take us to court and take all our money.
Don't get me wrong, I think they should pay for everything and then some. I'm just pointing out the most likely reason for them not offering $$ now.
Ever heard of Ruby Ridge? How about Waco? You people are idiot's, if you think the FBI is out their protecting you!
lets examine, shall we?
there are three scenarios. either
a.) you made this statement out of nowhere, and has nothing to do with the topic, or
b.) this is related to the topic in one of two ways:
1.) ruby ridge and waco are like this incident or,
2.) this incident is like ruby ridge and waco
so, either:
a.) that statement has nothing to do with the questions other people have been posing, or
b.) you're saying that those in ruby ridge and waco were just your average person, and the fbi just decided to target them out of nowhere, or
c.) you're saying this person did do something to provoke getting shot at.
which is it?
btw i could give a f*cking hoot about ruby ridge and waco.
lets examine, shall we?
there are three scenarios. either
a.) you made this statement out of nowhere, and has nothing to do with the topic, or
b.) this is related to the topic in one of two ways:
1.) ruby ridge and waco are like this incident or,
2.) this incident is like ruby ridge and waco
so, either:
a.) that statement has nothing to do with the questions other people have been posing, or
b.) you're saying that those in ruby ridge and waco were just your average person, and the fbi just decided to target them out of nowhere, or
c.) you're saying this person did do something to provoke getting shot at.
which is it?
btw i could give a f*cking hoot about ruby ridge and waco.
not trying to be tough. fact of life...poop happens.
our whole society is hell bent on blaming someone. Sometimes accidents happen. It is tragic and sad but surely doesn't warrant some sort of outrage or blind blanket statements like Bigdude is trying to make.
'nother term for this event - wrong place, wrong time.
our whole society is hell bent on blaming someone. Sometimes accidents happen. It is tragic and sad but surely doesn't warrant some sort of outrage or blind blanket statements like Bigdude is trying to make.
'nother term for this event - wrong place, wrong time.
our whole society is hell bent on blaming someone. Sometimes accidents happen. It is tragic and sad but surely doesn't warrant some sort of outrage or blind blanket statements like Bigdude is trying to make.
not only blaming someone.... but twisting things to fit agendas.
not only blaming someone.... but twisting things to fit agendas.
"not trying to be tough. fact of life...poop happens."
My old highschool bio teacher told me a story once of a friend of his who went swimming at a quarry. The guy ended up jumping into the water, getting speared onto a sunken metal pole, and losing half his "boys".
So yes, poop does happen.
Though secretly I know the FBI and the trilateral commission were behind that one too, the grey men told me.
My old highschool bio teacher told me a story once of a friend of his who went swimming at a quarry. The guy ended up jumping into the water, getting speared onto a sunken metal pole, and losing half his "boys".
So yes, poop does happen.
Though secretly I know the FBI and the trilateral commission were behind that one too, the grey men told me.
<< The FBI is composed of people, people make mistakes. 'nuff said. >>
People can also be evil.
<< Apparently images of armed law enforcement officers acting in dramatic ways tended to influence others who actually work in the field. >>
Now THAT's scary.
"People can also be evil."
Yes they can, but nothing I read in the story posted suggested they were in this case. However, I would reserve my own judgement before more facts are known.
Knee-jerk reactionism is an epidemic around here.
Yes they can, but nothing I read in the story posted suggested they were in this case. However, I would reserve my own judgement before more facts are known.
Knee-jerk reactionism is an epidemic around here.
I am sitting here wondering what everyones reaction would be if the guy who had gotten shot had been black or a Muslim. Hmmm..........
pyonir
Lifer
- Dec 18, 2001
- 40,856
- 321
- 126
<< I am sitting here wondering what everyones reaction would be if the guy who had gotten shot had been black or a Muslim. Hmmm.......... >>
i can't speak for anyone else, but my reaction would have been the same. i really didn't pay attention to the photo...i had to go back and look after you said that.
<< Yes they can, but nothing I read in the story posted suggested they were in this case. However, I would reserve my own judgement before more facts are known. >>
Sorry, I was thinking about government in general, not this incident in particular.
Trigger happy cops.. heh..
They could have at least waited until they saw evidence that he even had a gun..
They could have at least waited until they saw evidence that he even had a gun..
You know, we simply don't know everything that happened on that scene. We don't know that the FBI agent didn't tell the two passengers in the vehicle to keep their hands in view at all times. We don't know that the passenger didn't make a quick movement to undo his safety belt. We don't know that the agent didn't specifically tell him to reach across with his right hand and undo the safety belt and he did it with both hands. See where I'm going? I'm trained in felony traffic stops. They are very tense situations. You assume the worst, that you are going to get shot at, period. Until you've participated in the training for one, or actually participated in a live one or two (as I have), you can't realize the stress that you are under. When it's your life or someone else who you've believed has committed a violent crime, guess who's life carries less weight under the circumstances. Now go ahead you bleeding heart asses and shoot me down for placing lesser value on a human life, but fact of the matter is, you murder someone or seriously injure someone for personal gain of some kind, you are a lesser human and deserve to be treated as such.
Oh, if you disagree with that last statement, I consider you to be a lesser human for simply trying to say that lesser humans aren't lesser humans when they really are lesser humans. Did you get all that?
Oh, if you disagree with that last statement, I consider you to be a lesser human for simply trying to say that lesser humans aren't lesser humans when they really are lesser humans. Did you get all that?
I dont think anyone here is debating the dangers of traffic stops Rogue. I believe the general consensus is that it was a terrible incident. In fact I have had training in traffic stops. A secondary duty I had for a while was assisting the Military Police, as such we recieive the same training. Yes, they are dangerous and tense situations, as I said, no one said they weren't.
I feel bad for the guy, but the simple fact is that in those situations most cops are scared. When scared people are pointing guns you should do everything they say in slow motion. It is simple commons sense. Just place yourself in the officers position, they think they have a mass murder (everyone has the potentional to kill or so they must assume) on their hands and he has weapons within arms reach. If you make a quick move do you think you aren't going to get shot? They don't know who you are until they can get you out and ID you, until then you are the one they should be fearful of.
<< .and bad aim to boot! Go back to the shooting range a$$hole!!!! >>
bad aim? law enforcement agents are taught to incipacitate. sitting in a car i am sure the agent didn't have much to shoot at other than his head. how do you figure that is bad aim? a bad decision to shoot yes, bad aim no.[/i] >>
Yeah. He shot the guy with an M4 carbine, in the head, to incapacitate the guy. A 223 Remington is a small, fast bullet. It does not lend itself towards attempts to incapacitate, especially when fired into the head at close range. IMO, either the guy was a bad shot, or the windshield deflected it quite a bit. Or both. However, I would lay heavy odds the FBI guy was not attempting to "incapacitate" the guy any more then I would if someone broke into my house, unless you want to look at it from the perspective of "well, he's dead, so he is pretty damn well incapacitated."
Spike
Diamond Member
- Aug 27, 2001
- 6,770
- 1
- 81
A 223 Remington is a small, fast bullet. It does not lend itself towards attempts to incapacitate,
Actually, the .223 remington does very well at incapacitating. It is so fast and small that it usually does not fragment and instead travels right through the target as it is designed specifically for high-velocity so that it can penetrate armor. In this case, I very much doubt the agent was trying to do anything but kill the man, but the round itself is very good at not killing.
Look at the battle of Mogadishu (bad spelling, I know), the battle that Black Hawk down was based on (no, I have not seen the movies yet) some of the troops where having problems because they would shot a somali with a m-16 (also uses .223/5.56mm) like 5-6 times before they would go down due to the small size and penetrating factor. The samalis has AK-47's (or AKS) which shoot 7.76mm rounds and have alot more stopping power, but alot less penetration power.
Wow, I just went off on weapons in a thread that is about a FBI blunder... excuse me as it is my bedtime now
Actually, the .223 remington does very well at incapacitating. It is so fast and small that it usually does not fragment and instead travels right through the target as it is designed specifically for high-velocity so that it can penetrate armor. In this case, I very much doubt the agent was trying to do anything but kill the man, but the round itself is very good at not killing.
Look at the battle of Mogadishu (bad spelling, I know), the battle that Black Hawk down was based on (no, I have not seen the movies yet) some of the troops where having problems because they would shot a somali with a m-16 (also uses .223/5.56mm) like 5-6 times before they would go down due to the small size and penetrating factor. The samalis has AK-47's (or AKS) which shoot 7.76mm rounds and have alot more stopping power, but alot less penetration power.
Wow, I just went off on weapons in a thread that is about a FBI blunder... excuse me as it is my bedtime now
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,406
- 19,791
- 146
<< A 223 Remington is a small, fast bullet. It does not lend itself towards attempts to incapacitate,
Actually, the .223 remington does very well at incapacitating. It is so fast and small that it usually does not fragment and instead travels right through the target as it is designed specifically for high-velocity so that it can penetrate armor. In this case, I very much doubt the agent was trying to do anything but kill the man, but the round itself is very good at not killing.
Look at the battle of Mogadishu (bad spelling, I know), the battle that Black Hawk down was based on (no, I have not seen the movies yet) some of the troops where having problems because they would shot a somali with a m-16 (also uses .223/5.56mm) like 5-6 times before they would go down due to the small size and penetrating factor. The samalis has AK-47's (or AKS) which shoot 7.76mm rounds and have alot more stopping power, but alot less penetration power.
Wow, I just went off on weapons in a thread that is about a FBI blunder... excuse me as it is my bedtime now
>>Um, what armor can a 223 penetrate?
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