Fat Tax. Its being pushed again....

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Harvey
Aww... Id da widdle boy gonna cwy if he has to pay a little more for his sugar fix? 🙁

Bwahahahaha! :laugh:

Is this appropriate behavior from a "Senior Moderator"?

Personally, I disapprove of any tax on foods, and see this as a backdoor attempt to implement regressive food taxes based on some people's prejudices, hate, and other negative emotions. In other words, typical "screw your neighbor" knee-jerk politics. Who cares if some people starve if we're sticking it to the fatties, right?

We all know about your little crusade against the tobacco companies, Harvey. If you feel so strongly, why don't you work on legislation to get them out of the food industry, as opposed to punishing us (or worse still, punishing the poor) as a way to punish them? Or did that never occur to you?

Oh BTW, if you want to take a stab at making any "sugar fix" and other such dietary comments about me, how about we talk about your health? 'Cause I got 10% body fat and a 6-pack at pushing 36 years old. How 'bout you? See, we can all be a bit relative in our health comparisons, now can't we? Maybe you hate the fatties and the smokers and see them as unhealthy and costing us more, so what if I start feeling the same way about people who don't exercise religiously? Or maybe we start evaluating the health cost burdens of our senior citizens? Would that be fair?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk
This is why I'd like to see that everyone in the US have separate individual health policies. When you choose to eat too much or smoke, you deserve to pay higher premiums. Nobody else should have to suffer from your choices.

So instead of family plans - everything is individual? Because the way I see it, you will all be pooled anyway so what is the difference if it's "individual" or not?

But I do like the idea that risk factors should be taken into account in premiums. That's the way it is with all other insurance so why not health insurance? The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

It's a free country and you don't have to take that. If I were you I'd quit!!!


Welcome back.

BTW, I'm still here, so deal with it. 😉

No, I don't have to take it. However that fact doesn't change the issue about grouping by risk instead of employment. Car insurance works by risk group - why not Health insurance?

And thanks - yeah I see there are some even worse than you here now 😉

Ahh, so then let's extend this idea. People who support the war should have to pay higher taxes, no?

If they decide to change the helath care system perhaps they should base it on how often people actually go to the doctor then, why just pick on the overweight people?

Oh, people who engage in outside sports should have to pay extra too. How about people with allergies, why should I have to pay extra because they have defective genes? Or people prone to cancer, heart disease,and the list goes on.

Where do we stop?

Nope. There is a difference between Health Care and Health INSURANCE. And I'm not just picking on overweight people. There are many risk factors that can and should be taken into account. Another one being smoking. I still smoke(unfortunately) and thus I'd be placed in that risk category.

Where do other insurances stop? Car insurance - Age, claims, type of vehicle, driving record, etc. Life insurance has risk categories too. Why should health insurance be different than the rest?

 

[Vic]

I don't have a problem with people who support the war paying higher taxes. In fact, that's how it used to work, with war bonds.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk
This is why I'd like to see that everyone in the US have separate individual health policies. When you choose to eat too much or smoke, you deserve to pay higher premiums. Nobody else should have to suffer from your choices.

So instead of family plans - everything is individual? Because the way I see it, you will all be pooled anyway so what is the difference if it's "individual" or not?

But I do like the idea that risk factors should be taken into account in premiums. That's the way it is with all other insurance so why not health insurance? The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

Would that same litmus test apply to someone with HIV or other diseases? They certainly cost more money to care for.

So they should either be denied health coverage or never hired in your eyes?

Who said anything about being denied anything? If you crash your car over and over and over - you'll still likely be able to find someone to cover you - but you'll pay a hefty premium. So yes, if you lead a risky lifestyle then you will have a higher premium. Also, yes switching insurance may be get you caught with increased premiums due to pre-existing conditions. Does each car company start you out at a cheap rate even though you have a horrible driving record? Heck no, your risk is calculated long before you get coverage.

I think people still haven't figured out that INSURANCE is just that - insurance against major monitary loss. The Health insurance system has warped that concept in the past few decades where now it's more like a warranty/maintence plan instead of insurance. We need to get it back to INSURANCE.

But in order to do so you would have to engage in some excessive screening. Not everyone wears their poor lifestyles on their sleeves like your coworker.

The guy at the end of the hallway might have an irregular heartbeat or be a cocaine addict. There are privacy issues at stake here. Someone might have a high occurrence of cancer in their family, does this automatically mean that they get charged extra even though they may never develop cancer?

Even with insurance, medical bills are still the #1 reason people file for bankruptcy in this country. Not to mention that insurance companies are a for profit business and spend every second of every day trying to deny claims.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk
This is why I'd like to see that everyone in the US have separate individual health policies. When you choose to eat too much or smoke, you deserve to pay higher premiums. Nobody else should have to suffer from your choices.

So instead of family plans - everything is individual? Because the way I see it, you will all be pooled anyway so what is the difference if it's "individual" or not?

But I do like the idea that risk factors should be taken into account in premiums. That's the way it is with all other insurance so why not health insurance? The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

Would that same litmus test apply to someone with HIV or other diseases? They certainly cost more money to care for.

So they should either be denied health coverage or never hired in your eyes?

Who said anything about being denied anything? If you crash your car over and over and over - you'll still likely be able to find someone to cover you - but you'll pay a hefty premium. So yes, if you lead a risky lifestyle then you will have a higher premium. Also, yes switching insurance may be get you caught with increased premiums due to pre-existing conditions. Does each car company start you out at a cheap rate even though you have a horrible driving record? Heck no, your risk is calculated long before you get coverage.

I think people still haven't figured out that INSURANCE is just that - insurance against major monitary loss. The Health insurance system has warped that concept in the past few decades where now it's more like a warranty/maintence plan instead of insurance. We need to get it back to INSURANCE.

But in order to do so you would have to engage in some excessive screening. Not everyone wears their poor lifestyles on their sleeves like your coworker.

The guy at the end of the hallway might have an irregular heartbeat or be a cocaine addict. There are privacy issues at stake here. Someone might have a high occurrence of cancer in their family, does this automatically mean that they get charged extra even though they may never develop cancer?

Even with insurance, medical bills are still the #1 reason people file for bankruptcy in this country. Not to mention that insurance companies are a for profit business and spend every second of every day trying to deny claims.

Will there be screening - yes. Just like other insurances. How far or to what extent will they break down the risk categories - I don't know but it seems to me that it'd get expensive for them to have too many categories so you'd likely have a point rating type system. Also, there are no privacy issues here because Insurance already sees your medical history(through the bills they get😛 )

Exactly - they system is screwed up because it has become a Health maintence/warranty system instead of INSURANCE. Your car insurance doesn't pay for oil changes, wiper blades, or tires - why does health "insurance" pay for everything? It shouldn't - it should be INSURANCE. They'd have much less expense on having to deny claims if they'd get back into the INSURANCE business instead of care management business. It'd make Doctors happier, patients happier, and probably save the INSURANCE company money in the long run.

 

[SickBeast]

If they're gonna tax booze and smokes, they might as well tax junk food.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Will there be screening - yes. Just like other insurances. How far or to what extent will they break down the risk categories - I don't know but it seems to me that it'd get expensive for them to have too many categories so you'd likely have a point rating type system. Also, there are no privacy issues here because Insurance already sees your medical history(through the bills they get😛 )

Exactly - they system is screwed up because it has become a Health maintence/warranty system instead of INSURANCE. Your car insurance doesn't pay for oil changes, wiper blades, or tires - why does health "insurance" pay for everything? It shouldn't - it should be INSURANCE. They'd have much less expense on having to deny claims if they'd get back into the INSURANCE business instead of care management business. It'd make Doctors happier, patients happier, and probably save the INSURANCE company money in the long run.

Sure some of your medical history, but not necessarily is it all encompassing, for instance being a coke head won't be on there, that crap is out of your system in a week.

Yeah but say you go to the doctor and he notices a spot on your neck and has a sample sent off for a biopsy(paid for by insurance) and they detect skin cancer early which then in turn leads to a quicker recovery and "easier" treatment, this saves them (the Ins) money in the long run.

I mean this is what a lot of the costs are attributed to, screenings and tests, etc. People are encouraged to get these done and they are sometimes pretty expensive. If someone couldn't afford to pay out of pocket for a screening and end up getting some advanced form of disease X, it will cost much more to the system ultimately.

 

[Moonbeam]

I would jail fat people and make they run an exercize bike that generates electricity for the public grid. They get out when they are fit and trim.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Will there be screening - yes. Just like other insurances. How far or to what extent will they break down the risk categories - I don't know but it seems to me that it'd get expensive for them to have too many categories so you'd likely have a point rating type system. Also, there are no privacy issues here because Insurance already sees your medical history(through the bills they get😛 )

Exactly - they system is screwed up because it has become a Health maintence/warranty system instead of INSURANCE. Your car insurance doesn't pay for oil changes, wiper blades, or tires - why does health "insurance" pay for everything? It shouldn't - it should be INSURANCE. They'd have much less expense on having to deny claims if they'd get back into the INSURANCE business instead of care management business. It'd make Doctors happier, patients happier, and probably save the INSURANCE company money in the long run.

Sure some of your medical history, but not necessarily is it all encompassing, for instance being a coke head won't be on there, that crap is out of your system in a week.

Yeah but say you go to the doctor and he notices a spot on your neck and has a sample sent off for a biopsy(paid for by insurance) and they detect skin cancer early which then in turn leads to a quicker recovery and "easier" treatment, this saves them (the Ins) money in the long run.

I mean this is what a lot of the costs are attributed to, screenings and tests, etc. People are encouraged to get these done and they are sometimes pretty expensive. If someone couldn't afford to pay out of pocket for a screening and end up getting some advanced form of disease X, it will cost much more to the system ultimately.

Yeah, and that's why you'll still pay a premium even if you don't rate high on the risk scale - nobody is getting free coverage from an Insurer. Let me ask you this - do you ever speed? Did your insurance company know about it? No, because likely you weren't caught but they still hold the risk because they insured you.

Yes, I understand that preventative care is needed and that can be addressed. However if people are paying less because they now have INSURANCE instead of maintenence/warranty coverage they will be more likely to be able to afford the tests. And if those tests go over the deductable - guess what - INSURANCE steps in. Just like house insurance. Lets say I see a termite in a cabinet. I call an exterminator who I have to PAY to diagnose and rid me of the issue - but if that bill gets too high becasue there was structural damage - my house insurance will cover the costs above the deductable.(just an example since I know many policies do not have termite coverage)

Starting to understand yet? You need to get out of the health management mindset and into an INSURANCE mindset. Yes, we can talk preventative care and it's costs but that's not an insurance issue.


Sorry, for continuing the off-topic nature of this discussion. If need be lets move this to a different thread so people can talk about the fat tax. 🙂

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Sorry, for continuing the off-topic nature of this discussion. If need be lets move this to a different thread so people can talk about the fat tax. 🙂

Welcome back CAD.

I don't know who knocked you off or why but welcome back.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk
This is why I'd like to see that everyone in the US have separate individual health policies. When you choose to eat too much or smoke, you deserve to pay higher premiums. Nobody else should have to suffer from your choices.

So instead of family plans - everything is individual? Because the way I see it, you will all be pooled anyway so what is the difference if it's "individual" or not?

But I do like the idea that risk factors should be taken into account in premiums. That's the way it is with all other insurance so why not health insurance? The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

It's a free country and you don't have to take that. If I were you I'd quit!!!


Welcome back.

BTW, I'm still here, so deal with it. 😉

No, I don't have to take it. However that fact doesn't change the issue about grouping by risk instead of employment. Car insurance works by risk group - why not Health insurance?

And thanks - yeah I see there are some even worse than you here now 😉

Ahh, so then let's extend this idea. People who support the war should have to pay higher taxes, no?

If they decide to change the helath care system perhaps they should base it on how often people actually go to the doctor then, why just pick on the overweight people?

Oh, people who engage in outside sports should have to pay extra too. How about people with allergies, why should I have to pay extra because they have defective genes? Or people prone to cancer, heart disease,and the list goes on.

Where do we stop?

Nope. There is a difference between Health Care and Health INSURANCE. And I'm not just picking on overweight people. There are many risk factors that can and should be taken into account. Another one being smoking. I still smoke(unfortunately) and thus I'd be placed in that risk category.

Where do other insurances stop? Car insurance - Age, claims, type of vehicle, driving record, etc. Life insurance has risk categories too. Why should health insurance be different than the rest?

Your talking about RISK.

The more sports your in the bigger the RISK, if you have a history of cancer in the family, the bigger the RISK, if your a gay or have a sexually promiscous lifestyle, the bigger the RISK. Got a lot of speeding tickets, more RISK. You got a DUI, more risk.

Then how about the size of your family? One person has one kid and the next has 9 but they both pay the same family rate. There is definetly more risk but nobody is whining about that? At least not yet, but they will be at this rate.

There is no way to fairly do this, that's why it's the way it is now. If we knew how it was going to come out in the end I'd bet the majority of people it wouldn't be affected much one way or the other, but your opening the door for the insurance companies to poke their noses around in everybodie's private business and they are the only ones who are going to benifit from it because they will use every reason they can get their hands on to charge more and pay less..

I for one am smarter then that.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Infohawk
This is why I'd like to see that everyone in the US have separate individual health policies. When you choose to eat too much or smoke, you deserve to pay higher premiums. Nobody else should have to suffer from your choices.

So instead of family plans - everything is individual? Because the way I see it, you will all be pooled anyway so what is the difference if it's "individual" or not?

But I do like the idea that risk factors should be taken into account in premiums. That's the way it is with all other insurance so why not health insurance? The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

It's a free country and you don't have to take that. If I were you I'd quit!!!


Welcome back.

BTW, I'm still here, so deal with it. 😉

No, I don't have to take it. However that fact doesn't change the issue about grouping by risk instead of employment. Car insurance works by risk group - why not Health insurance?

And thanks - yeah I see there are some even worse than you here now 😉

Ahh, so then let's extend this idea. People who support the war should have to pay higher taxes, no?

If they decide to change the helath care system perhaps they should base it on how often people actually go to the doctor then, why just pick on the overweight people?

Oh, people who engage in outside sports should have to pay extra too. How about people with allergies, why should I have to pay extra because they have defective genes? Or people prone to cancer, heart disease,and the list goes on.

Where do we stop?

Nope. There is a difference between Health Care and Health INSURANCE. And I'm not just picking on overweight people. There are many risk factors that can and should be taken into account. Another one being smoking. I still smoke(unfortunately) and thus I'd be placed in that risk category.

Where do other insurances stop? Car insurance - Age, claims, type of vehicle, driving record, etc. Life insurance has risk categories too. Why should health insurance be different than the rest?

Your talking about RISK.

The more sports your in the bigger the RISK, if you have a history of cancer in the family, the bigger the RISK, if your a gay or have a sexually promiscous lifestyle, the bigger the RISK. Got a lot of speeding tickets, more RISK. You got a DUI, more risk.

Then how about the size of your family? One person has one kid and the next has 9 but they both pay the same family rate. There is definetly more risk but nobody is whining about that? At least not yet, but they will be at this rate.

There is no way to fairly do this, that's why it's the way it is now. If we knew how it was going to come out in the end I'd bet the majority of people it wouldn't be affected much one way or the other, but your opening the door for the insurance companies to poke their noses around in everybodie's private business and they are the only ones who are going to benifit from it because they will use every reason they can get their hands on to charge more and pay less..

I for one am smarter then that.

So you are saying Life insurance isn't "fair", car insurance isn't "fair", and the other insurances aren't "fair"? They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

Health INSURANCE is the least "fair" because it doesn't factor risk and thus allows extremely unhealthy people to ride the backs of the healthy since they pay the same premiums.

You need to break the health warranty/maintenence way of thinking. Insurance that isn't tied to your job is a big positive plus, you'll be pooled with people of the same risk ratings so your premiums and rates won't be affected by those who do not take care of themselves or lead riskier lives.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

And the more risk they can identify the more they can charge. That doesn't translate into saving YOU any money, it translates into MAKING THEM more.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

And the more risk they can identify the more they can charge. That doesn't translate into saving YOU any money, it translates into MAKING THEM more.

That translates into you paying a premium that corresponds with your service level and risk level.

Again, you need to stop thinking of this in it's currently warped fashion. I'm not talking about the health management insurance we have currently - this is about actual INSURANCE.

Do you whine about about car insurance in this same fashion? How about your home owner's policy?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

And the more risk they can identify the more they can charge. That doesn't translate into saving YOU any money, it translates into MAKING THEM more.

That translates into you paying a premium that corresponds with your service level and risk level.

Again, you need to stop thinking of this in it's currently warped fashion. I'm not talking about the health management insurance we have currently - this is about actual INSURANCE.

Do you whine about about car insurance in this same fashion? How about your home owner's policy?

Oh grow up, your the one whining about fat guy in the cubicle across the aisle. Does he get a higher salary then you or something?

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

And the more risk they can identify the more they can charge. That doesn't translate into saving YOU any money, it translates into MAKING THEM more.

That translates into you paying a premium that corresponds with your service level and risk level.

Again, you need to stop thinking of this in it's currently warped fashion. I'm not talking about the health management insurance we have currently - this is about actual INSURANCE.

Do you whine about about car insurance in this same fashion? How about your home owner's policy?

Oh grow up, your the one whining about fat guy in the cubicle across the aisle. Does he get a higher salary then you or something?

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

No, I'm not whining. I'm saying the system currently sucks(and pointed out an example) and I'm offering solutions on how to fix it. And no, I make more than he does.🙂

Now again, do you whine about your car insurer, house insurer, ect and their invasion of your private life? They put you into a risk category based on you habits and history - do they not? Does that not translate into "MAKING THEM more"?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

And the more risk they can identify the more they can charge. That doesn't translate into saving YOU any money, it translates into MAKING THEM more.

That translates into you paying a premium that corresponds with your service level and risk level.

Again, you need to stop thinking of this in it's currently warped fashion. I'm not talking about the health management insurance we have currently - this is about actual INSURANCE.

Do you whine about about car insurance in this same fashion? How about your home owner's policy?

Oh grow up, your the one whining about fat guy in the cubicle across the aisle. Does he get a higher salary then you or something?

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

No, I'm not whining. I'm saying the system currently sucks(and pointed out an example) and I'm offering solutions on how to fix it. And no, I make more than he does.🙂

Now again, do you whine about your car insurer, house insurer, ect and their invasion of your private life? They put you into a risk category based on you habits and history - do they not? Does that not translate into "MAKING THEM more"?

Yes, you are whining and then calling me the whiner. You can go back wherever you came from troll.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They all work by factoring risk into the premiums and coverage.

And the more risk they can identify the more they can charge. That doesn't translate into saving YOU any money, it translates into MAKING THEM more.

That translates into you paying a premium that corresponds with your service level and risk level.

Again, you need to stop thinking of this in it's currently warped fashion. I'm not talking about the health management insurance we have currently - this is about actual INSURANCE.

Do you whine about about car insurance in this same fashion? How about your home owner's policy?

Oh grow up, your the one whining about fat guy in the cubicle across the aisle. Does he get a higher salary then you or something?

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The guy in the cube across the office is over 350lbs, eats nothing but crap, doesn't excercise - yet he pays the same insurance premiums that I do. I don't want him in our health insurance pool because he ups the cost because of all his "problems".

No, I'm not whining. I'm saying the system currently sucks(and pointed out an example) and I'm offering solutions on how to fix it. And no, I make more than he does.🙂

Now again, do you whine about your car insurer, house insurer, ect and their invasion of your private life? They put you into a risk category based on you habits and history - do they not? Does that not translate into "MAKING THEM more"?

Yes, you are whining and then calling me the whiner. You can go back wherever you came from troll.

:laugh: OK, so will you answer about the other insurances? Why can they categorize risk but not Health INSURANCE?

Maybe I should just start a new thread on this...


BTW, I'm not a big fan of "sin" taxes. A "fat tax" falls into that category IMO.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I would jail fat people and make they run an exercize bike that generates electricity for the public grid. They get out when they are fit and trim.

Heh. Ironically, this has already been done. Forced exercise on a treadwheel was a common form of punishment in prisons in 19th century Britain. They were usually used to grind grain.

 

[IEC]

Ah yes, another regressive tax, and another step towards socialism. I've got a solution for fat people: get off your lazy arses and stop stress-eating, you lard-eatin' cream-colored dough turds! 😱