Probably had something to do with it matching up very well to 3DFX's hardware. It's easy to make things run well when you can design the standard to the hardware rather than the other way around.
You assume (somehow) that this nonexistent magical new standard (please tell me you don't want to go back to GLide) is going to make things run "a lot better" on NVIDIA's (undetermined) future hardware, while that same hardware will not take any sort of performance hit when running code from other standards. You'll have to excuse me if I'm slightly skeptical; that's the kind of guy I am. :roll:
No sane developer is going to write their games for a single kind of graphics card, nor are they going to write them to support TWO incompatible 3D standards, especially when one of them only works on one company's hardware (lowest common denominator effect). Why spend all the extra cash when it will only benefit a fraction of your market?
LOL How funny and predictable.
This is the guy who lurks around the board waiting for me to post so he can try to nitpick my posts in search of some secret agenda. :roll:
Instead of "Old Fart" I think I'm going to start calling you "Agent Mulder"
"XFile#34-904: The Case Of The Predictable Rollo
3/17/03: Rollo posted that he felt the 5800Ultra offered acceptable performance, despite the 128bit memory limitations. Although benchmarks largely corroborate his story, is this evidence of some secret nVidia payoff to Rollo?!
9/12/03: Rollo posts that ATI fans may be premature in posting that the 9600Pro is superior to the 5900U based on Shady Days. Could he really be Brian Burke, nVidia PR man?!
7/23/04: Rollo posts that he wouldn't mind if companies backing developers resulted in increased gaming performance! The conspiracy is revealed, Rollo is obviously none other than Jen Hsun Huang, nVidia CEO, feigning a middle class Midwestern existence to trick honest ATI gamers!"
LOL you crack me up Old Fart. Keep reaching.
I agree, I read no further than your post. I think ID software controlling the benchmarks for DOOM3 is doing the same thing. Trying to make thier largest contributor happy.
Your agenda is no secret. nVidia fan boy all the way. You spin every event and technology into an nVidia positive, and an ATi negative. You've reversed most of your postions from last gen to suit the pro nvidia agenda. This is just another example of that. If this were ATi you be all over this calling it "Shady Days Two".
Its obvious. Why not just admit to it?
NVidia tried to do that with NV30 and failed miserably. Instead of making a DX9-compliant card, they made one that complied with their "CineFX" technology and "C for Graphics". We all know how that situation turned out.
The bottom line is it's a dumb idea and it would never work. Glide came out when 3D hardware acceleration was in its infancy. DirectX and OpenGL are the standards today, and there is no good reason to change them. Why do you think it's such a great idea? It would kill off all videocard companies except for nVidia. They would be a monopoly. Is that what you want? I mean, I know it doesn't matter to you anyways seeing as you purchase only nVidia hardware, but come on. Prices would skyrocket.
The only way for it to be possible would be for nVidia to pay off every single game developer to use their new 3D applet.
By the way, Rollo, you never really did explain why you said PS2 was a complete waste, but now suddenly PS3 is the cat's meow.
The last time I checked, there was an immense difference between the visual quality of PS1.1 and PS2, but no difference at all between PS2 and PS3. If it's the 15% performance difference, well then maybe. From what I remember of your post though you said you saw "more difference from going from PS2 to PS3 than there was going from PS1.1 to PS2". Something along those lines anyway.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
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Your agenda is no secret. nVidia fan boy all the way. You spin every event and technology into an nVidia positive, and an ATi negative. You've reversed most of your postions from last gen to suit the pro nvidia agenda. This is just another example of that.
Its obvious. Why not just admit to it?[/quote]
I don't really know what the big secret is. Last generation belonged to ATI. Don't you think it proper for someone to support this fact and acknowledge it by actually realizing it and purchasing an ATI product?
Of course you do. Be reasonable. This generation is a bit different. ATI and NV are very close. NV has picked up some serious ground in ALL areas over the 5xxx series. Being that both ATI and NV are so close in performance this gen, performance no longer becomes a competition. There are other things to look for such as features. Some might say the features NV offers are useless. Fine. Its subjective and it's relative. It is only natural for someone to want the best thing out there. And a person who switches back and forth from ATI to NV to ATI to NV is probably the most non biased user there is. He goes with what he feels is best at the time. So, you complaining about Rollo reversing his positions is in a sense complaining that he is not biased. I don't understand what you want here.
I don't really know what the big secret is. Last generation belonged to ATI. Don't you think it proper for someone to support this fact and acknowledge it by actually realizing it and purchasing an ATI product?
Of course you do. Be reasonable. This generation is a bit different. ATI and NV are very close. NV has picked up some serious ground in ALL areas over the 5xxx series. Being that both ATI and NV are so close in performance this gen, performance no longer becomes a competition. There are other things to look for such as features. Some might say the features NV offers are useless. Fine. Its subjective and it's relative. It is only natural for someone to want the best thing out there. And a person who switches back and forth from ATI to NV to ATI to NV is probably the most non biased user there is. He goes with what he feels is best at the time. So, you complaining about Rollo reversing his positions is in a sense complaining that he is not biased. I don't understand what you want here.[/quote]
I agree with most of what you say. A couple of things I dont. Rollo was on his anti ATi rant last gen as well. Yes I know he owned a 9700/9800P. That does not change the fact of the anti ATi/Pro nvidia stuff that has been posted for some time. This is not about whether ATi or nVidia is in the lead this or last gen. The facts speak for themselves.
Its about constant spinning of everything to suit a Pro nVidia agenda even if it means reversing what he posted last year.
I dont know why I'm on this rant. I guess the constant fan boy stuff gets to me more than it should, The AMD Intel stuff is not even this bad.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
I agree with most of what you say. A couple of things I dont. Rollo was on his anti ATi rant last gen as well. Yes I know he owned a 9700/9800P. That does not change the fact of the anti ATi/Pro nvidia stuff that has been posted for some time. This is not about whether ATi or nVidia is in the lead this or last gen. The facts speak for themselves.
Its about constant spinning of everything to suit a Pro nVidia agenda even if it means reversing what he posted last year.
I dont know why I'm on this rant. I guess the constant fan boy stuff gets to me more than it should, The AMD Intel stuff is not even this bad.
Most everybody in the video card forum is easily agitated. Its a weird phenomena. I dont think a single thread in here has made it past 5 posts before the napalm falls on it. I could be wrong about that number but I don't see civility in here all that much. I myself have always liked nvidia better than ATI for various reasons of my own. Sometimes it is very necessary to put a spin on things because we are left with no choice. Because the other guy is spinning yarns of his/her own. For every word typed in a post, there is always a way to pick it apart, somehow. Anandtech Video Forum is synonomous with Anandtech Debaters Forum. It is all one great big diffused debate that can never be finished, won, or lost. So all we are really doing is, passing time.
/blabber
I've always appreciated your honesty. Hehe, yeah, it gets ugly here way too often. Its OK to have a brand bias. You may well have good reason. Its another to be very biased one way, with MANY posts to prove it, yet claim to be neutral.Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I agree with most of what you say. A couple of things I dont. Rollo was on his anti ATi rant last gen as well. Yes I know he owned a 9700/9800P. That does not change the fact of the anti ATi/Pro nvidia stuff that has been posted for some time. This is not about whether ATi or nVidia is in the lead this or last gen. The facts speak for themselves.
Its about constant spinning of everything to suit a Pro nVidia agenda even if it means reversing what he posted last year.
I dont know why I'm on this rant. I guess the constant fan boy stuff gets to me more than it should, The AMD Intel stuff is not even this bad.
Most everybody in the video card forum is easily agitated. Its a weird phenomena. I dont think a single thread in here has made it past 5 posts before the napalm falls on it. I could be wrong about that number but I don't see civility in here all that much. I myself have always liked nvidia better than ATI for various reasons of my own. Sometimes it is very necessary to put a spin on things because we are left with no choice. Because the other guy is spinning yarns of his/her own. For every word typed in a post, there is always a way to pick it apart, somehow. Anandtech Video Forum is synonomous with Anandtech Debaters Forum. It is all one great big diffused debate that can never be finished, won, or lost. So all we are really doing is, passing time.
/blabber
I tend to go gen to gen. Whatever is best at the time. I used 3dfx back in the day like everyone else. The GF2 period I went back and forth between ATi 64 and GF2 and finally settled on the GF2 Pro. Then GF3, GF4 Ti4600. Last round went to ATi 9700P then a 9800P. Its very close at the high end this time. If I were to buy right now, the GT gets the nod.
I agree with most of what you say. A couple of things I dont. Rollo was on his anti ATi rant last gen as well. Yes I know he owned a 9700/9800P. That does not change the fact of the anti ATi/Pro nvidia stuff that has been posted for some time. This is not about whether ATi or nVidia is in the lead this or last gen. The facts speak for themselves.
Its about constant spinning of everything to suit a Pro nVidia agenda even if it means reversing what he posted last year.
I dont know why I'm on this rant. I guess the constant fan boy stuff gets to me more than it should, The AMD Intel stuff is not even this bad.
[/quote]The problem Old Fart, is that I wasn't "nVidia biased" then or now. I've always bought the cards by both companies. If ATI would have actually produced something new this year chances are pretty good I would have bought one, as well as a nV40, at some point.
I wasn't posting anti ATI sentiments over the last two years when I was primarily using a 9700P/9800P, I was posting anti-fanATIc sentiments. Big difference there. Trying to interject some reason (e.g. the 9600Pro isn't a better card to own than a 5900U because of Shady Days) doesn't make you a nVidiot, it makes you someone who realizes that a benchmark on one vaporware program does not a compelling argument make.
Yes I pointed out ATIs brilinear repeatedly, but not because I cared much about the visual anomalies in some games that it produced. I did it because of the literally hundreds of posts last year fanATIcs made ranting and raving about nVidia's terrible crime of trying to give their users better performance in the same fashion, and because I thought it was particularly dishonest of ATI to ask reviewers to turn off nVidia's brilinear and leave theirs on.
You are right that I seemingly reversed my position on DX9 from over a year ago, and now consider DX9c a compelling reason to buy nVidia this generation.
There weren't any games last year that offered reason to prefer ATI for DX9 last year?
There is one big game (Far Cry) out now using SM3, and 11 more in development, some of which will be out within the next year.
Beyond that, I want to be part of an installed user base that drives the industry forward, rather than just buying another R300 core and saying in 3dfx fashion, "They'll give us those features when we need them"?
I also look forward to Doom 3 more than any other game this year. I didn't even play HL through, but I've played all of Carmacks games through, most multiple times. There will be a multitude of games based on this engine I'll end up buying as well if history is any teacher. If gameplay isn't great on my NU, I'll buy a GT or U just to play this game.
That kind of says it all Old Fart. No conspiracy. ATI just dropped the ball this year by trying to sell me the same core for the third year in a row. Better framerates at levels where the games are running smooth anyway isn't going to convince me to spend $500 on their 9800Ultra.
Must be some other guy who goes by Rollo with all the one sided anti ATi pro nVidia posts then.
They did. Its the R420. You would find some excuse not to like it no matter what. Even if it had newer tech, you would find it "boring" and find an excuse to go nvidia anyway.
I think it may have started out that way. Somewhere along the line, you turned into what you didn't like. nVidiot is no better than a FanATIc
This is typical. You are all over "Shady Days" when Valve and ATi are together, but have no issue with Crytek and nVidia putting out an nVidia sponsored patch that is beta, breaks other cards, requires a DX version that is unavailable. You further go on to say nVidia should have a proprietary API to shut out other mfgrs. Now that would be moving forward!
Fair enough. But now you've become one of them. If you dont like Brilinear type optimizations, at least hold both companies to the same standard instead of defending one, and slamming the other for doing essentially the same thing.
And did those cards just evaporate this year? People still own them. Have any new games come out?
Again. From the guy who said not to buy a card based on future games when ATi had a leg up. By your old logic, it doesn't matter since new cards will be out by then anyway. Now all of a sudden your card has to be future proof.
Its called a R420. Even calling it R300 is your little way of putting in a dig. R300 = 9700. R420 = X800. At least use the right terminology. Funny when nVidia was behind the technology curve with nV30, you went on about how the core tech didn't matter as long as you got the same performance (nV3x vs R3xx). Now that nVidia has a leg up, you conveniently reverse that to suit the pro nVidia agenda.
I'm looking forward to D3 as well. I've also played all of IDs game except for Doom original. This is not relevant to this discussion, but most of them with the exception of RTCW were pretty lame SP games. No story, just decent shooters. HL on the other hand had a great SP experience which is why it is still regarded today as one of the top SP games ever. Back to the topic....
$500 9800U? Never heard of it. Nothing would convince you. You are "solidly in the nVidia camp". You can deny it all you like, Your posts clearly prove otherwise.
I'm not the only one around here that has made this observation.
Old Fart:
I guess I'll have to forget about calling you "Agent Mulder" and call you "Nostradamus":
Makes sense to me. Old Fart, can you pick some stocks for me?
I also said both those cards shaders were far too weak for PS2 games, and that by the time there were PS2 games, those cards PS2 performance would seem like a joke. Time proved me right. Check out some Far Cry benchmarks of 9800/5900 vs X800/6800 if you don't believe me.
The nV30 was more advanced than the R300 in some ways, less in others. Carmack couldn't even use an R300 on Doom3 due to it's feeble instruction limits. These days, no one can use an X800 to develop, because why would you code in crappy partial precision DX9b when you could use DX9c /SM3 and do your job much easier? Yet again, ATI leaves developers hang with their primitive 2002 tech, while nVidia gives them tools that can produce games that will be relevant in the next couple years. Might have something to do with why "TWIMTB" is on most game boxes and I've yet to see a GITG logo?
LOL- I forget the name of this logical fallacy, but the gist of it is "many people can share a common misperception". (i.e. if the 3 Stooges all think gravity will stop working tomorrow, and I disagree, they're not right because all three of them think this)
I guess I'll have to forget about calling you "Agent Mulder" and call you "Nostradamus":
Behold, ladies and gentlemen, a man who has never met me, yet can see into my future and tell me what I "would" do.
Makes sense to me. Old Fart, can you pick some stocks for me?
I consider the useful life of a card one year. If you think using two year old cards is good, enjoy your sacrifices.
Based on the information I had at the time, I didn't think there would be many PS2 games out within a year of the release of the 9800/5900 generation of cards. Time proved me right, it wasn't an issue with those cards for that year.
I also said both those cards shaders were far too weak for PS2 games, and that by the time there were PS2 games, those cards PS2 performance would seem like a joke. Time proved me right. Check out some Far Cry benchmarks of 9800/5900 vs X800/6800 if you don't believe me.
It's called the 9800U as far as I'm concerned. A tweaked memory controller and more pixel pipelines is not some gpu renaissance.
The nV30 was more advanced than the R300 in some ways, less in others. Carmack couldn't even use an R300 on Doom3 due to it's feeble instruction limits. These days, no one can use an X800 to develop, because why would you code in crappy partial precision DX9b when you could use DX9c /SM3 and do your job much easier? Yet again, ATI leaves developers hang with their primitive 2002 tech, while nVidia gives them tools that can produce games that will be relevant in the next couple years. Might have something to do with why "TWIMTB" is on most game boxes and I've yet to see a GITG logo?
I like to play shooters? It's relevant to to the topic because the D3 engine is one of the reasons I prefer nVidia this generation. If the 9800Ultra was the card to have for Doom3, it's likely I'd own one, and it's likely you would still be calling me a nVidia fanboy.
Err, sure thing Old Fart. Actually, I am solidly behind the nV40 this gen, as I don't see any reason anyone would prefer a X800 to it. I'll be back in ATIs camp again when they make something new, instead of trying to re-sell the same stuff I bought from them the last two years.
I'm not the only one around here who has made the observation that I just like new tech video cards, no matter who makes them? So the fact that some other people agree with you is supposed to prove something?
LOL- I forget the name of this logical fallacy, but the gist of it is "many people can share a common misperception". (i.e. if the 3 Stooges all think gravity will stop working tomorrow, and I disagree, they're not right because all three of them think this)
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
ant fan boy stuff gets to me more than it should, The AMD Intel stuff is not even this bad.
Most everybody in the video card forum is easily agitated. Its a weird phenomena. I dont think a single thread in here has made it past 5 posts before the napalm falls on it. I could be wrong about that number but I don't see civility in here all that much. I myself have always liked nvidia better than ATI for various reasons of my own. Sometimes it is very necessary to put a spin on things because we are left with no choice. Because the other guy is spinning yarns of his/her own. For every word typed in a post, there is always a way to pick it apart, somehow. Anandtech Video Forum is synonomous with Anandtech Debaters Forum. It is all one great big diffused debate that can never be finished, won, or lost. So all we are really doing is, passing time.
/blabber
[/quote]I think this is really the bottom line. I do find enjoyment in reading and postig in these threads because a lot of you know what you are talking about, and are PASSIONATE about it. I learn a lot here. As far as the sensitivity of people is concerned, well spending 400 dollars on a card and then having someone else tell them they are an idiot, well it makes sense. What if you walked into a friends house and said he was a fool for spending 400 dollars on a Sony tv because the equivalent panasonic model offered such and such features. He/she'd probably be very hurt. Admittedly we are very different, because this is a hobby. But nonetheless, it'd be nice to see some more encouragement of the hobby through constructive support of both platforms. We sometimes need to appreciate they who buy the 'other' card because they support the industry we all love.
Farcry was available duing the 9800 Pro's reign (March 03 - June 04). Apparently it doesn't count for their side.
SM3 is good stuff, but even with SM3 my GT can't come close to my XT in Farcry, price/performance wise. When the feature actually makes it so that the 6800s are the better card for the money in a game, I'll change my mind about it.
they should not be so lazy...ohhh 10 whole minutes!! what a tragedy!
i bet many people took longer making posts bitching about reinstalling than it would take to do the actual reinstall!
as for me i simply made a new profile and loaded up the last map i was on through console, but then again i am smarter than the machine i play on too..
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
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Sounds perfectly fair. But you say "in FarCry" and then "a game". Did you mean just Far Cry? Or all games currently available. Not to nitpick, just wanted to know if you base your advice to others on purchasing X800's on Far Cry only. And I really wish you would stop time traveling backwards and quoting things that happened back in march03 and such. Things move too fast in the graphics world. You have to look at whats happening right now. And maybe a little into tomorrow.
Never mind those facts Shadowhawk. You are now "solidly in the nVidia camp".
Didn't you know those SM3 games were coded on ATI cards, and will play best on ATI cards? Unless you kneel before their two year old core design and chant," The best in 2002! The best in 2003! The best in 2004! The best till ATI says different!" you too will be labelled a "nVidiot" and forced to testify as to your bias.
Oh yeah I forgot. After you're done chanting the above 1000X, you must chant,"It's real trilinear! nVidia's optimizations must be disabled for true comparison!" 1000X and reserve yourself 10 copies of HL2, and 3 X800XTs.
Only then can you be a non-biased gamer.
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