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Far right in EU gaining Populrity

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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock

OK - you are ASSERTING that this is a possibility. OK, that's one opinion - yours. Do you have any collaborating evidence, expert opinions, or attitudinal surveys of EU citizens that would back that up and make it worth anything more than one line of a discussion?

In 1997, 66% of the EU15 described themselves as racist in a poll. The far-right attitudes have spread since then, so I wouldn't be surprised if the number is nearing 90% now. The treatment of minorities in Europe is quite troubling (from the treatment of the Chinese in Italy to Muslims everywhere to the Roma). When political parties that have slogans such as "The Swiss are becoming Negroes" and have campaign posters of brown-skinned devils feasting upon the blood of white girls become the most popular party in the country certainly contributes to my opinion. 95% of voters in Slovenia voting against restoring rights to minorities. The exaggerated fear of non-white population growth. The list just goes on and on.

"I would never say that this is the beginning of a new Holocaust. But this is how it starts." - Barbara John, Germany's former commissioner for foreigners.

What do you have?

Please post detailed links about ANY practices that the British engaged in that fit the definition of "genocide" in and around WWII. Not "other atrocities", because that is not our topic of convo here, but the planned removal of another race or creed from the face of the earth. Please let me know where this transpired, and which groups were the victims or intended victims.

How Britain Denies Its Holocausts

Which "undesireables"? Which rights, exactly? The rights that I was referring to are the rights of free speach, the openness of borders, the ability of international organizations to monitor the situation internally within the country...I see it difficult to understand how those rights could be removed for just one group within the country...

They are known as "The Erased." I suggest you read up on it. They were stripped because of their ethnicity.


Read about it, huh? You propose to base your statements about an undeclared political revolution in the EU upon your supposed knowlege of the EU citizens based upon what you KNOW about them (from Mongolia) after reading about them on the internet...what are you, like 19? The news on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it...expecially without the context of actually knowing the place...

What are you, like 19? Based on your previous "I would have no business what-so-ever commenting on this situation if I didn't live here" and this, it seems like that may be stretching it. I guess you won't be posting in any thread about Iraq, huh? During Apartheid, only a South African could comment on it, right? Or maybe you can think rationally and realize that your position is childish.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Racism appeals to most of the EU, and the far-right are the masters of racism. You talking about the mainstream parties making changes to reclaim lost ground to the far-right is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to the far-right infecting mainstream politics.

Infecting? Racism? Wow - a bit sensationalist. All the mainstream parties have to do is cut off, possibly totally, the flow of immigrants - that one action alone would satisfy the majority of the electorate in most countries. Immigration policy is NOT the same as racism.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
That's what people said 5 years ago, and now the far-right are getting stronger and more organized. The problem cannot be fixed by ignoring it. Europeans continue to ignore what they don't want to confront, thus it becomes a bigger problem. The potential genocide needs to be prevented.

Genocide only seems to work in countries that have no political freedoms...none of the countries you have named has a lack of political freedom, freedom of the press, or closed borders to international aide organizations. ALL of these things would be pre-requisites for anything approaching "genocide". Go look in your history books...these all were present to very large degrees in WWII Germany, in 1970s Cambodia, in Cultural Revolutionary China, and now in Dafur. And WHATEVER the populace feels about immigration, I don't see these basic rights of a free society going away...


Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I wouldn't ask you because it's irrelevant.

No, it's TOTALLY relevant - the coverage of the EU's internal politics is virtually non-existant in the US, or for that matter Asia. I would have no business what-so-ever commenting on this situation if I didn't live here, know people from about the EU, work here, and read the papers here. I would be speaking out my a$$. But as it turns out, I'm not, even if you and I don't agree.

FS


You should tell this to most newsources in the EU which portray anti immigration stopage with racism
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
As well, FS

While I agree with you, this is a one issue stand. If the other parties adopt the anti-immigrant issue, they will win. The thing is, the other parties will not, and have not. They missed there chance to do it in 2002, they have not since than. Instead of denouncing the right, the assumed it was dead due to the 2002 results, and now that we see the immigration problems starting to increase, and work towards a climax (which we have not seen yet) the other parties are still not really taking a stance. The parties you see most vocal, the ones you see reaching out to the people, are the far right parties. Now your idea that it is a one issue problem is correct, but in the (even more apathetic than North America) EU political scene, where voting numbers are typically and not out of average in the 20-40% range of the population, one issue, if left uncontrolled, can be enough to win an election. And with these riots going unchecked, and with people in the EU becomming scared at Islam, and developing Islamhpobia, this one issue, which the far right has a large lead on, could be enough to win an election. So its all good that this is a one issue problem, which to you is enough to dismiss it. Until the other parties becomming dealing with that one issue, this is a problem, one that needs to be address and not one you can dismiss, this is not 2002 anymore, this is 2006, where muslim riots in EU are becomming commonplace, and entire patches of cities are being dedicated to Muslims, and the larger and larger percentage of the EU people are becomming quite displeased with it.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I've been talking about the gain of the far-right in Europe for some time on this forum. It's very troubling. A few years ago many people claimed that the far-right were nothing, that they were insignificant. Now, they are one of the most important elements in European society. They receive a substantial number of votes, participate in government, and infect mainstream politics with their ideals. It's the beginning of yet another genocide in Europe.

Perhaps is the policies of the left didnt fail the far right wouldnt have much of a leg to stand on.

The interesting thing is there was a genocide in Europe just a decade ago and the left did nothing to stop it until Clinton forced their hands.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Originally posted by: MadRat
Sheesh, can't we have a moderate regionalized government somewhere in the world?

QFT... we see far left policies not quite working in Europe. In America, we see far right policies not working either. Where's the middle ground?

Our government isn't far right...you may think Bush is far right, but he surely doesn't govern like that.

He's an authoritarian corporatist who ignores the law when he sees fit. Sounds pretty far right to me.

Who just happned to erect a welfare program? You wouldnt know a far right candidate if they smacked you on the face with their nightstick.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Racism appeals to most of the EU, and the far-right are the masters of racism. You talking about the mainstream parties making changes to reclaim lost ground to the far-right is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to the far-right infecting mainstream politics.

Racism is not the sole porperty of the right.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Originally posted by: MadRat
Sheesh, can't we have a moderate regionalized government somewhere in the world?

QFT... we see far left policies not quite working in Europe. In America, we see far right policies not working either. Where's the middle ground?

Our government isn't far right...you may think Bush is far right, but he surely doesn't govern like that.

I agree with you 100%. He only puts on a far right facade when he is appeasing that base.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
You could have included the US in that list.
Our country has already gone extreme right wing.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: techs
You could have included the US in that list.
Our country has already gone extreme right wing.

As much as I dislike Bush, The US is more of a welfare state than many would ever admit too.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,864
4,977
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
Racism appeals to most of the EU, and the far-right are the masters of racism. You talking about the mainstream parties making changes to reclaim lost ground to the far-right is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to the far-right infecting mainstream politics.

Racism is not the sole porperty of the right.




Of course not. It is, however, much more prevalent on the right.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Racism appeals to most of the EU, and the far-right are the masters of racism. You talking about the mainstream parties making changes to reclaim lost ground to the far-right is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to the far-right infecting mainstream politics.

Racism is not the sole porperty of the right.

When I'm talking about the far-right, I'm refering to the European racist/supremacist political parties and ideology. Many left-leaning parties in Europe have extremist racist views.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: Genx87
Racism appeals to most of the EU, and the far-right are the masters of racism. You talking about the mainstream parties making changes to reclaim lost ground to the far-right is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to the far-right infecting mainstream politics.

Racism is not the sole porperty of the right.




Of course not. It is, however, much more prevalent on the right.

The extremes of both wings blend into the same

 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms

In 1997, 66% of the EU15 described themselves as racist in a poll.
Please cite a source...anyone can make up poll results. You published no author, no link, no title, no polling company...nothing but your say so. BTW - I have another poll in which 99.999% of the EU citizens describe themselves as totally against racism.. lol.


Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The far-right attitudes have spread since then, so I wouldn't be surprised if the number is nearing 90% now.
Again, your supposition and postulation. Meaning nothing. But nice of you to put a totally non-factual number to it and try to present it as fact - that's what all liars and tabloids do.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The treatment of minorities in Europe is quite troubling (from the treatment of the Chinese in Italy to Muslims everywhere to the Roma). When political parties that have slogans such as "The Swiss are becoming Negroes" and have campaign posters of brown-skinned devils feasting upon the blood of white girls become the most popular party in the country certainly contributes to my opinion. 95% of voters in Slovenia voting against restoring rights to minorities. The exaggerated fear of non-white population growth. The list just goes on and on.

"I would never say that this is the beginning of a new Holocaust. But this is how it starts." - Barbara John, Germany's former commissioner for foreigners.

What do you have?

I have the fact that the majority of the Britons that I deal with on a day-to-day basis just simply don't describe themselves as racist or act it. My brother (caucasian) just bought a £500,000 house in racially integrated South London - right near the Stockwell tube stop where the Brazilian was mistakenly shot by anti-terror police and right across the street from an entire area of racially mixed council flats.

Think about it - there is NO FSCKING WAY you can get £500,000 for a house in that neighborhood in a prevailingly racist society. Everyone would worry about the value of the house long-term, the safety, etc. But not in London - in fact, South London is probably one of the best real-estate areas to invest in in Briton. The only "racist" thing that I have seen is that my brother and his partner use the back bedroom rather than the front: the basketball courts and playground of the council flats tend to get used late into the evening. But I fear, for your points, that this is rather a practical matter than overt racism...my brother has early office hours.

But as you don't live here, and probably have never visited here, please feel free to channel all of the sensationalist propoganda you like...

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
How Britain Denies Its Holocausts

They are known as "The Erased." I suggest you read up on it. They were stripped because of their ethnicity.

You said in your original post all of this happend around WWII - and yet when I read the link, all I got were stories from the 1800s about British colonial atrocities. Do you actually have ANYTHING to back up your claim of modern atrocities - or again, are these mere suppositions and sensationalism on your part?

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
What are you, like 19? Based on your previous "I would have no business what-so-ever commenting on this situation if I didn't live here" and this, it seems like that may be stretching it. I guess you won't be posting in any thread about Iraq, huh? During Apartheid, only a South African could comment on it, right? Or maybe you can think rationally and realize that your position is childish.

No, I'm 42, and have filled three passports working and living in other countries. I have lived and worked on 4 continents, and have dual US-EU citizenship. I have 750,000 frequent flier miles, and have lived 8 years of my life in hotels - and have the points to prove it. I once cashed in 165,000 United miles to redeem a SINGLE frequent flier ticket for the millenium so I could be on a sailboat on the International Date Line in Fiji for the dawn of 2000 drinking cava with natives - and I still had more in the airmiles account. I know of very few people that have lived their lives on the road abroad more than I. Ever leave Mongolia?

As for Iraq, my experiences with the culture stem from my best friend of 12 years living in Beruit and doing business in Iraq and in Kuwait extensively, and in my personally dating an Arab women from UAE for a year and a half. Her father (of the Farah family - look them up, they built half of Dubai) was a personal friend of Yassir Arafat's and a staunch PLO contributor. Outside of that, I have no direct experiences...other than a minor in Political Science studying terrorism and military history from Purdue University. And if you will note, my comments on Iraq usually stem from the military history point of view, i.e., our inability to fight insurgent warfare successfully.

Now that we have my particulars out of the way, WTF is your backround in EU racism or EU culture?

Future Shock

 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
You could have included the US in that list.
Our country has already gone extreme right wing.

lmao

Laugh all you want.
We now live in a country where the President is claiming the right to interpret laws passed by Congress as he sees fit.
We live in a country where the President can spy on our citizens as he sees fit.
We live in a country where propaganda trumps truth.
We live in a country that has huge deficits.
We live in a country that kills people who violate its laws.
We live in a country that has a military far larger than for self defense.
We live in a country where the government arbitrarily classifies anything it wants to keep secret.
We live in a country where the citizens are less influential in passing our laws than corporations and ideologues.
And lastly we live in country where the Constitution is "just a piece of paper" according to our leader.
Hmmm.
All characteristics of a right wing government.
Just because the consolidation of power is not yet complete doesn't mean we are not living in a far right country.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
You could have included the US in that list.
Our country has already gone extreme right wing.

lmao

Laugh all you want.
We now live in a country where the President is claiming the right to interpret laws passed by Congress as he sees fit.
We live in a country where the President can spy on our citizens as he sees fit.
We live in a country where propaganda trumps truth.
We live in a country that has huge deficits.
We live in a country that kills people who violate its laws.
We live in a country that has a military far larger than for self defense.
We live in a country where the government arbitrarily classifies anything it wants to keep secret.
We live in a country where the citizens are less influential in passing our laws than corporations and ideologues.
And lastly we live in country where the Constitution is "just a piece of paper" according to our leader.
Hmmm.
All characteristics of a right wing government.
Just because the consolidation of power is not yet complete doesn't mean we are not living in a far right country.

You live in a country with welfare that allows immigration....

 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
You could have included the US in that list.
Our country has already gone extreme right wing.

lmao

Laugh all you want.
We now live in a country where the President is claiming the right to interpret laws passed by Congress as he sees fit.
We live in a country where the President can spy on our citizens as he sees fit.
We live in a country where propaganda trumps truth.
We live in a country that has huge deficits.
We live in a country that kills people who violate its laws.
We live in a country that has a military far larger than for self defense.
We live in a country where the government arbitrarily classifies anything it wants to keep secret.
We live in a country where the citizens are less influential in passing our laws than corporations and ideologues.
And lastly we live in country where the Constitution is "just a piece of paper" according to our leader.
Hmmm.
All characteristics of a right wing government.
Just because the consolidation of power is not yet complete doesn't mean we are not living in a far right country.

You live in a country with welfare that allows immigration....
For now.....

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
You could have included the US in that list.
Our country has already gone extreme right wing.

lmao

Laugh all you want.
We now live in a country where the President is claiming the right to interpret laws passed by Congress as he sees fit.
We live in a country where the President can spy on our citizens as he sees fit.
We live in a country where propaganda trumps truth.
We live in a country that has huge deficits.
We live in a country that kills people who violate its laws.
We live in a country that has a military far larger than for self defense.
We live in a country where the government arbitrarily classifies anything it wants to keep secret.
We live in a country where the citizens are less influential in passing our laws than corporations and ideologues.
And lastly we live in country where the Constitution is "just a piece of paper" according to our leader.
Hmmm.
All characteristics of a right wing government.
Just because the consolidation of power is not yet complete doesn't mean we are not living in a far right country.

You live in a country with welfare that allows immigration....
For now.....

For now than you are not far right wing than :p
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
I was watching the Skinhead documentary here recently. These people still believe that Hitler is their leader, most of these Aryan Nation racists think Hitler is their father. Interesting. They also for some reason, probably because they're ignorant, think the Swastika represents the white race.

I think its kind of funny yet it makes me angry that these morons think the swastika represents the white race when in fact it originated in Asia. Well it may have originated when the Aryan invaders settled in India and formed hinduism. These hateful morons just keep repeating the same old lines thinking without thinking twice. Also, they believe that Aryan means pure white race when in fact that is not totally true.

But I'm not surprised. People who are racist and have animosity towards others simply because of race, religion, sex or whatever are ignorant and have not introduced their mind to something other than what they were brought up on.

What this has to do with Europe, I don't know.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock

Please cite a source...anyone can make up poll results. You published no author, no link, no title, no polling company...nothing but your say so. BTW - I have another poll in which 99.999% of the EU citizens describe themselves as totally against racism.. lol.

The Opinion Poll was carried out between 26 March and 29 April 1997 in the fifteen Member States at the request of the Employment, Industrial Relations and Social Affairs Directorate (DGV) of the European Commission within the framework of Eurobarometer 47.1. It involved 16,154 people. It was commissioned as part of the European Year Against Racism and coordinated by INRA (Europe). The last poll of this kind was taken in 1988. The data were analysed under the responsibility of Jeanne Ben Brika and Gérard Lemaine (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris), and James S. Jackson (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan).

You can do a Google search and get the entire report. I've posted it on the forums before many times.


Again, your supposition and postulation. Meaning nothing. But nice of you to put a totally non-factual number to it and try to present it as fact - that's what all liars and tabloids do.

Of course, it's just my prediction, just like you are doing. We'll see what happens in 2007 when the next poll is undertaken.

I have the fact that the majority of the Britons that I deal with on a day-to-day basis just simply don't describe themselves as racist or act it. My brother (caucasian) just bought a £500,000 house in racially integrated South London - right near the Stockwell tube stop where the Brazilian was mistakenly shot by anti-terror police and right across the street from an entire area of racially mixed council flats.

So, you basically have nothing - no surveys, no stats, no historical facts, etc. other than irrelevant anectodal evidence. And you were mocking me over the poll? LOL indeed! Hey guess what? My friend's sister's dog's brother's aunt's inbred 1-eyed hyena claimed that everyone in the UK is racist. Or you can use an actual statistic such as the poll where it found that 65% of the UK described themselves as racist, of which almost half of that described themselves as very racist.

Think about it - there is NO FSCKING WAY you can get £500,000 for a house in that neighborhood in a prevailingly racist society. Everyone would worry about the value of the house long-term, the safety, etc. But not in London - in fact, South London is probably one of the best real-estate areas to invest in in Briton. The only "racist" thing that I have seen is that my brother and his partner use the back bedroom rather than the front: the basketball courts and playground of the council flats tend to get used late into the evening. But I fear, for your points, that this is rather a practical matter than overt racism...my brother has early office hours.

There are havens of tolerance even in overwhelmingly bigoted societies. Provide some real evidence. There are 35 racist crimes alone in London every day. The UK is generally better than most of Europe in race relations too.

You said in your original post all of this happend around WWII - and yet when I read the link, all I got were stories from the 1800s about British colonial atrocities. Do you actually have ANYTHING to back up your claim of modern atrocities - or again, are these mere suppositions and sensationalism on your part?

I didn't know that British atrocities during the 1940s and 1950s were from the 1800s. Perhaps you should read it again. The article mentions the Bengal famines and the Mau Mau uprising, among other things.

No, I'm 42, and have filled three passports working and living in other countries. I have lived and worked on 4 continents, and have dual US-EU citizenship. I have 750,000 frequent flier miles, and have lived 8 years of my life in hotels - and have the points to prove it. I once cashed in 165,000 United miles to redeem a SINGLE frequent flier ticket for the millenium so I could be on a sailboat on the International Date Line in Fiji for the dawn of 2000 drinking cava with natives - and I still had more in the airmiles account. I know of very few people that have lived their lives on the road abroad more than I. Ever leave Mongolia?

As for Iraq, my experiences with the culture stem from my best friend of 12 years living in Beruit and doing business in Iraq and in Kuwait extensively, and in my personally dating an Arab women from UAE for a year and a half. Her father (of the Farah family - look them up, they built half of Dubai) was a personal friend of Yassir Arafat's and a staunch PLO contributor. Outside of that, I have no direct experiences...other than a minor in Political Science studying terrorism and military history from Purdue University. And if you will note, my comments on Iraq usually stem from the military history point of view, i.e., our inability to fight insurgent warfare successfully.

Now that we have my particulars out of the way, WTF is your backround in EU racism or EU culture?

Future Shock

Wow, you sure like talking about yourself. You are funny! I never seriously asked about your pariculars because it's irrelevant. Anecdotal evidence has no point in a legitimate conversation about such a topic.

Do you want a plaque for saying useless stuff in a discussion? I am 82, lived and worked on 6 continents and the Mir space station, and have 12 adopted children whose names all start with X.

I am a minority who has gone to Europe and seen and experienced the barbarity of European society upon minorities. But that doesn't matter because it is of no point in a normal discussion of the issues - personal experiences don't mean anything. According to your childish way of discussion, shouldn't you be a minority or shut up because you don't know what you're talking about? Or maybe you should learn how to have a legitimate debate over an issue with real facts and figures instead of your life story.
 

chcarnage

Golden Member
May 11, 2005
1,751
0
0
Wow, that took time. Turns out that I'm seldom in the mood of posting in ATPN during weekends in military service periods ;) But now prepare for a detailed reply:

Much of this information from The Guardian is outdated or plain wrong. Too much for a serious newspaper.

Austria
Freedom party (FPO)
Key figures: Jörg Haider (FPO's de facto leader and governor of Carinthia),
Susanne Riess-Passer (FPO leader and vice chancellor, Austrian sports minister)
Led from 1986 to 2000 by Nazi sympathiser Jörg Haider, the FPO came second in the 1999 general elections on an anti-immigration and anti-EU ticket, winning 27% of the vote and 52 seats in parliament under the PR system. Soon after the vote, Austria weathered the wrath and sanctions of the EU after the rightwing People's party agreed to form a coalition government with the FPO.
FPO members currently hold six posts in the Austrian cabinet, but growing tensions between Mr Haider and FPO moderates are threatening to split the party. However, the FPO is still strongly supported in parts of its southern electoral heartlands - Mr Haider's achievements are likely to endure for some time.
Special report: Austria

Haider is a far right, anti-immigrant, disgusting politician to me. I could write down some anecdotes why this bastard annoys me but I don't have the time to do it now (It suffices to say that he is a strong opponent of bilingual town signs where the Slovenian minority traditionally is strong. I give the Austrians credit for a law that requires them to be bilingual there, though). But he likes to put himself into the spotlight and he is not representative for the moderate wing of the FPÖ which is present in some the other regions. For a good part of his career, Haider was mainly influent in his home province (he avoided direct contact with the national level when he thought that he is more powerful in regional politics-Austria's regions are not politically homogenous).

Recent developments made it difficult to predict the future of the right and the far right in Austria. In 2002 the FPÖ's result went down to 10 percent. As junior partner in the government coalition they also were less influent than some members had hoped. The tensions between Haider and other party members have finally led to a split. Haider founded the extreme right BZÖ (Alliance Future Austria) while the remaining part of the FPÖ stays in the coalition. Surprisingly the FPÖ also adopted a less moderate language and is flirting with the national right, too. At the moment it's sort of a contest of who's the "real" national right party that doesn't benefit neither of the parties: The latest predictions for the 2006 elections are about 8% for the FPÖ and 3% for the BZÖ (meaning that they won't pass the 4 percent hurdle).

I disagree however with the citation of the EU reactions as proof how extremist the FPÖ is, because the EU sanctions were totally wrong in my opinion. Also, the EU was inconsequent (or changed its policy against non-centrist governments) because Italy didn't have to deal with EU interventions after 1999 with a coalition that was, in my opinion, similar to Austria's.


Germany
Republican party (REP), German People's Union (DVU), National Democratic party (NPD)
Key figures: No dominant leaders.
The far right in post-war Germany has manifested itself largely as a neo-Nazi youth protest movement, with plenty of unpleasant rallies by disaffected and racist youths from both the east and west of the country. However, none of Germany's three minor far right parties has made headway at national level. In the 1998 parliamentary elections, the REP and DVU mustered just 1.8% and 1.2% respectively - way off the 5% hurdle over which votes can translate into seats under Germany's dual PR/first past the post electoral system. However, these parties have had limited successes at local level, and since the Kohl era, anti-immigrant policies have made it on to the national agenda.

Okay, first to the only thing the Guardian got right: This three parties are extremist right. The REPs are slightly less than the other two, the NPD takes the lead and doesn't try to hide its anticonstitutional and racist nature. All organisations are under observation of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution and an effort to make the NPD illegal nearly succeeded few years ago.

Contrary to the statement of the Guardian, those protests indeed took place mainly in the east of Germany in economically weak regions (mostly former East Germany federal states), economy being a main reason why this parties are relatively popular there. But their influence is limited by two facts. First, every other German party doesn't form governments with the three right extremist parties on principle. This automatically makes them a part of the opposition whereever they get elected. Also because of this, the idea of a seamless political spectrum from left to extreme right must be rejected. It is more like a separated political biotope. Second, their bilance at local and regional level isn't impressive at all. Of the 16 provinces, the NPD currently is present in one parliament (Saxony: 9 / 124 seats), so is the DVU (Brandenburg: 6 / 88). The REP is absent. On a local level, their results vary but still, they're in the opposition everywhere.

It is also not correct that these parties have "no dominant leaders". In fact they have rather steep hierarchies and tend to be the project of very few individuals. The DVU owes its president 4.3 mil ?, this permits him to lead in an authoritarian style. Even in relatively successful phases, there's no regional autonomy in these organisations. It's all top-down there.

And finally, there is no tendency towards right-wing extremism in Germany. I don't dispute that there was a wave of media attention for this issue, even on an international level, because NPD demonstrations produce unappetising pictures. But look at the results of the Bundestag election of 2005 yourself:

NPD: 1.6% - REP: 0.6% - DVU: did not run

All parties were far from passing the 5 percent hurdle and don't influence politics on the national level in any way. The claim that there is a tendency is disproved by the fact that the three parties were founded between 1964 and 1987, too - they are not new by any means.

Also, I'm curious which anti-immigrant policy the Guardian is talking about, because I don't remember a particular law. From 1991-2001 there was more immigration than emigration in Germany (I don't have newer numbers).


Italy
Northern League, National Alliance
Key figures: Umberto Bossi (pictured: leader, Northern League),
Gianfranco Fini (leader, National Alliance)
The xenophobic Northern League and the post-fascist National Alliance entered a rightwing coalition with Silvio Berlusconi's governing party following general elections in 2001. Defying international criticism, Mr Berlusconi gave three cabinet posts to the Northern League, despite the fact that it only polled 4% of the vote, and one key post to Gianfranco Fini. With policies such as authorising coastguards to shoot human traffickers and the belief that the EU is run by paedophiles, the Northern League's inclusion in government prompted widespread concern across Europe.

Bossi and Fini still are the presidents of their respective parties and both parties still are junior partners of Berlusconi's (Forza Italia) government. It is not certain if their coalition will lose the next election but it is clear that these parties are stagnating. I'm not going to write much about the Northern League because they are very anti-immigration in my opinion, too. The famous suggestion to shoot at the boats of illegal immigrants came from Bossi. This is a quote from an interview, though. The Lega Nord made no formal attempt to enact such a law.

Things get more complex when judging the National League (Alleanza Nazionale). During the last ten to twelve years, their leaders changed the former postfascist party into a moderate, national conservative thing. It is discutable how deep the change was, as parts of the people at the basis remain the same and some leaders were already active during the disreputable past. The shift in political orientation however gets very clear when looking at Fini who mutated from a Mussolini-admirer into a critic and pro-EU-politician. Fini visited Auschwitz and the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial and openly distanced himself from his past perspective. No matter if one believes this, it IS an oversimplification to categorise the Alleanza Nazionale as far-right.

There may be other parties in the far right that escaped The Guardian's attentive eye *coff*, but they are not important so far.


The Netherlands
Pim Fortuyn's List (LPF), Liveable Netherlands
Key figure: Mat Herben (leader, LPF)
Mat Herben, a former defence ministry spokesman and the current LPF party spokesman, now leads the party that still bears the name of his predecessor, who was shot dead on May 7. In general elections on May 15, LPF came second only to the centre-right Christian Democrat party (CDA), winning 26 parliamentary seats in its first ever election contest. It is now preparing to enter a coalition government with the CDA. However it is doubted whether LPF can survive in the long term without its maverick founder.
Despite standing for zero immigration and stating that Islam was "backward", Pim Fortuyn's politics represented a uniquely Dutch take on the far right. He was openly gay; his deputy, Joao Varela, was himself a black immigrant; and some critics said he was less extreme than other European far right leaders. Fortuyn formed LPF this February after being sacked by the Netherlands' main far right party, Liveable Netherlands, for the strength of his anti-immigration stance.

After internal disputes, the LPF lost 18 of its 26 seats in the 2003 elections. Livable Netherlands lost both seats at the same time.

The interaction with the muslim minority has become a topic in all parties by now even though they naturally have different opinions about it.


Norway
Progress party
Key figure: Carl Hagen (leader, Progress party)
Norway's far right Progress party has propped up a rightwing coalition government since elections last October, in which the Labour government that had dominated Norwegian politics for almost a century was ousted. The Progress party, which wants to cap immigration at 1,000 people a year, won 26 out of 165 parliamentary seats after polling 14.7%.

While the Progress Party increased its percentage of votes in 2005, they no longer are part of the administration.

Portugal
Popular party
Key figure: Paulo Portas (leader, Popular party)
Portuguese parliamentary elections held this March saw the Popular party win 14 seats, after polling almost 9% of the vote. The fiercely anti-immigration party, led by crusading rightwing journalist Paulo Portas, is now part of a rightwing coalition. Mr Portas has pledged to introduce tight immigration limits and to prevent the transfer of further national powers to the EU.

(I'm not that informed about politics in Portugal.)


Switzerland
Swiss People's party (SVP)
Key figure: Christoph Blocher (Leader, SVP)
Although it does attract extreme right support, the SVP is best described as hard right. The party takes a strongly anti-immigrant line but its populist leader, Christoph Blocher, insists he is not racist. After elections in 1999, the party became Switzerland's second-strongest political force, polling a joint top 22.5% and winning 44 seats. However, Mr Blocher's bid to enter government failed when his request for a second SVP cabinet post was rejected by the other coalition leaders.

The SVP is best described as a normal right party. In the late nineties the party succeeded to attract electors from the hard right (although not from the extreme right. I'll write about those parties shortly) and they also used some campaigns of arguable value and provocative content to achieve this. From this era comes the poster canoworms likes to cite so much ("More and more, the Swiss are becoming the negroes"). It was from the section of St. Gallen and was fiercely criticised internally, too. What canoworms doesn't understand is that "to be the negroe" is an old and rarely used figure of speech synonymic to "pull the short straw" and that this slogan is not about immigration. Well its main purpose was to attract media attention and as we see, it worked. (There however never was an SVP poster of "brown-skinned devils feasting upon the blood of white girls")

The SVP is a strong supporter of strict Swiss neutrality and opponent of any military involvement in foreign operations and peacekeeper missions. They are against EU membership and think of themselves as patriots. Where some of the other parties think that the government should spend money (say, integration courses for immigrants) they are more in favor of low taxes. But this stays in a context of a generally liberal perspective (liberal meaning here that the government shouldn't get involved everywhere and keep its activities low). The SVP doesn't ask for the expatriation of immigrants and for zero immigration, but they think that immigrants should integrate themselves and that they should do this with their own efforts.

Positioned right of the SVP are the nationalistic SD (Swiss Democrats). Contrary to the SVP, they want immigrants to leave and no new immigrants. I hesitate a bit to call them outright racist but they sure are xenophobic nuts. After the attack of the "SVP sponge" they now are nearly insignifant and occupy one of the 200 seats in the national parliament. They are present in three of the country's 26 regional parliaments.

The far right is represented by the PNOS (party of nationally oriented Swiss... gotta love the euphemism). These extremists are outright Nazi sympathisers. The federal police office estimates that they have 130 members, thereof 30 active ones. The PNOS holds two mandates at the communal level.

The SVP is now the strongest party in Switzerland, followed by the Social Democrats (26.7%, 23.3%). They now have two ministers in the seven head Swiss administration (that by the way consists of four parties that represent about eighty percent of the electorate), Blocher beeing one of them. Blocher no longer is party president and has some less brilliant rhetoricians as successors. The intensified integration of the SVP in government responsability has led to slightly more moderate communication habits but the SVP still occasionally pull a provocative campaign "by accident" (be it xenophobic or about other subjects), followed by the ritualised apology and internal discussions. This party knows how to play the media, heh.


United Kingdom
British National party (BNP)
Key figure: Nick Griffin (leader, BNP)
Thanks partly to Britain's electoral system, the racist BNP is highly unlikely ever to return an MP to Westminster. Its best ever electoral showing was at this May's local elections, in which BNP candidates won three local council seats (out of a national total of over 6,000) in the deprived and racially divided Burnley. The BNP's Cambridge graduate leader, Nick Griffin, wants to pay non-whites to return to their countries of ethnic origin and to withdraw Britain from the EU.
Special report: The far right in Britain
Special report: race in the UK

"Thanks partly to Britain's electoral system..." With a 3/6000 bilance you won't achieve much in a proportional representation system either, lol. I hear the same drama tune like in most other descriptions.


Maybe some P&Ners from the other side of the pond can give us an opinion? From everything I have read the far right parties are gaining popularity, as well the poll in Denmark that showed the DPP gaining popularity pretty quickly. It seems that EU might be taking a hard swing towards the anti-immigrant/far right.

Like I initially said, this article is a classic example of inaccurate journalism. Speaking more generally, if you see a headline like "dramatic political shift in (insert continental European country)", keep in mind that as far as parties are concerned, politics are more dynamic here. A party can win or lose it all, but it's very likely that when I die, it's still the GOP and the DEMs that compete for power (or Labour and the Tories, respectively). After some years, many newcomers turn out to be only a blip on the radar, and a new successful party is less sensational news than it would be in Britain or the US because the hurdles are significantly lower. Also, a shift in election results doesn't mean that an extrapolation will show the results of the next elections, like everywhere else.

By the way, Switzerland and Norway are not EU members.


Some comments to replies in no particular order:


No centrist governments? There are centrist parties in power, or coalitions of left and right parties (p.e. in Germany)

Genocide. From Portugal to the Ukraine many European nations made great steps towards democracy in the last fifty years and you claim that racistically motivated genocides are unavoidable everywhere. That's as unrealistic as it gets. There are flaws remaining but you fail to see the general tendency. Some of the minorities you named are in trouble but others are not. It's a plain exaggeration to say that muslims are discriminated everywhere.

Eurobarometer. I've written a long reply to the 66% racists claim some time ago. Sadly it seems to have been deleted in the meantime. I'm not going to write the entire thing again but i recommend to update your standard of knowledge with broader and more up to date information: Key Findings from the Eurobarometer and the European Social Survey (1997/2000/2003). You'll be surprised that the EU isn't 90% racist yet and I'd be happy to compare the studies with results from North America but it partly is also a case of the EU knowing more what's happening in their countries than others, at least I'm not aware of continuous statistical examination of these issues elsewhere.

Voting numbers. It is not true that typical voter participation is in the 20-40% range. Percentages in the fourties and fifties are more common.

Muslim riots. They were NOT common in Europe. Worst I've seen was the manifestation in London with the unappetising slogans. But regions with strong minorities or muslim majorities protested peacefully or not at all (Germany / Bosnia-Herzegovina). The violent TV pictures originated somewhere else.
 

walkur

Senior member
May 1, 2001
774
8
81
Excellent post chcarnage...

I would like to add that in the Netherlands in the local elections (for City counsels) the left won a lot of votes and now have the majority. Polls indicate that if NATIONAL elections were held now the result would mirror the local result, thus giving the left a big majority.

In fact according to the latest exit polls, the "Far Right" LPF is reduced to 0 (as in zero) seats in the goverment...

At least for the Netherlands the information the Guardian uses hopelessly out of date.




 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
lately all over the world the trend has been to shift in whatever direction it wasnt heading before

europe is turning to the right
north america is turning to the right
south america is turning to the left
asia is turning to the right (I think)

well.. the world is for the most part turning to the right