FAQ: Cooling a mobile Athlon64 on a K8N (socket 754)

[jbbm63]

Hello all --

Trying to go the inexpensive route in an attempt to upgrade my current video box that was getting too slow for what I use it for, I grabbed a surplus ASUS K8N for CAD50$ and then headed off to eBay in the hopes of finding a cheap processor to go with the new mobo. The cheapest socket 754 Athlons were/are mobile units and that is what I went with (mobile Atlon64 3200), thinking that such a beast would be a good purchase due to their low temp design.

THEN, after buying a surprisingly inexpensive Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 pro at a local dealer (CAD26-29$), I realized that the CPU does not have the protective foam "nipples" (sorry, can't think of a better word here) like the old Athlon XPs had, nor can one easily buy a HSF shim for a socket 754 processor.

(The only unit I found is the MSI Mobile Pad, selling for 9.99USD at shop.msicomputer.com. Of course, they do not ship to Canada.)

To add insult to injury, it seems that most/all '754 HSF don't even reach the CPU's core due to the different packaging of the CPU (no heat spreader, thus thinner). And if they do, there is a chance of cracking the CPU's core (this brings back a few memories...).

I am starting to think I made a mistake and for the time being, I feel I am stuck. So the question is... hmm... the questions are:

(1) does anyone around here know if the Freezer64 Pro's baseplate (what makes contact with the CPU) reach the core of the Mobile A64?

(2) if it does, is there anything special I can do to avoid crushing the core? Do I really have to find a way to procure & put on an MSI pad (nothing more than an aftermarket copper heatspreader), or is this just a bad idea?

(3) If the HSF does not reach the CPU, is the distance small enough that I could just buy some sort of aftermarket thermal pad (like found on eBay for less than USD2$) and stick it on the core or is it just a bad idea?

(4) should I just bite the bullet and simply look for a "real" Athlon64 with heat spreader?

I must say that this is the first time in 20+ years of building my own boxes (and modifying my Macs -- CPU upgrades, etc.) that I managed to, er, "paint myself in a corner"... Oh, well, I guess everyone pulls a boneheaded move, sooner or later... I guess I was due.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.

 

[Ketchup]

I would look on eBay or at the For Sale portion of this forum for the MSI pad. Any of the other options you listed could seriously damage your core.

 

[jbbm63]

ketchup79 -- thanks for the answer.

I now wonder if the MSI Mobile Pad (https://shop.msicomputer.com/App/StoreFront/ProductDetail.aspx?ID=1021) is a good idea after all. What makes me leery (sp?) of it now is that they say " Support AMD mobile CPU up to 40W heat transition design". The only AMD 64bit processor that matches this is the Turion. Comparatively, the AMA3200BEX5AR Athlon64, which is what I bought, is rated at 89W heat dissipation by AMD!!! (Can't find a link to this info at the moment, sorry)

Had MSI not mentionned the 40W limit, I would have looked into purchasing a pad, despite it not being officially sold in canada (I wonder why). But now I am scared that the pad would kill the CPU by making it overheat big time.

I wonder if there is anyone out there that has tried the MSI Mobile Pad with something else than a Turion, to share his/her experiences...

 

[myocardia]

The only thing you can do with a mobile chip is to buy a heatsink that uses screws to attach itself to the motherboard, like this one: Scythe Ninja.

 

[Ketchup]

I have seen other people in this forum use the MSI Pad in the past on their mobile A64's and it seems to work fine. I would love to take the mobile chip out of my Gateway laptop and see what it would do in my desktop. I was playing around with Rightmark CPU Clock Utility and found that my Mobile A64 3400 (Newark core) will run full load with only 1.15 volts! I can only imagine what speeds it could run at in my desktop.

 

[homestarmy]

If you look at the mobilepad, it is a copy of the original design by AMD. There's no reason it wouldn't work with processors rated above 40w, unless it is just a completely poor design. From the looks of it, it is copper, so it should be fine.

Now how to get it... I'd help, but I don't know if I have the time with school and all, and shipping to me and then you would be a lot .

 

[jbbm63]

Homestarmy --

"here's no reason it wouldn't work with processors rated above 40w, unless it is just a completely poor design": I would agree with your statement because how can anyone f*ck up something so simple as a small piece of machined copper?

But then, I do have some doubts. Assuming that the MSI Mobile Pad has a little thermal pad that will touch the CPU's die, would the limitation on cooling effectiveness of the MSI pad be created by the [thermal pad | copper | thermal pad] "sandwich"? I mean, the pad is an intermediary between the HSF and the CPU core sandwiched between two layers of thermal compound, could those two layers cause trouble?

Ketchup79 did say that there are some people around here that have used the MSI Mobile Pad with non-Turion Mobile Athlon64 without apparent problems. So maybe my concerns are ill-founded, though I'd still like to hear directly from someone who actually uses a Mobile Pad with a non-Turion.

Myocardia: isn't there a chance this HSF could crush the core, or is the use of screws they key to avoid destroying your CPU?

One last thing: Ketchup79 (and Myocardia): did you essentially say that this new ArcticCooler 64 Pro is not a good design for a mobile A64?

Again, all, thanks for the info.

 

[CKXP]

OP can you return the AC Freezer 64? a Thermalright XP-90 will make proper contact with your S754 mobile....i have one installed on my 3700+ mobile newark

 

[jbbm63]

CKXP --

I guess I could return the AC Freezer 64 Pro, I am in enough good terms with the clone shop's owner to do an exchange for a Thermalright XP-90... But looking at this HSF's pictures on the frozencpu.com & ncix.com websites, the retention clip(s) don't seem to be very ajustable. They look like if one cannot go the "gentle route" to attach them to the retention bracket around the CPU. Did you take any special precaution / use any secret handshake to install the HSF without breaking to CPU core?

Furthermore, what fan do you use with your XP-90?

Cheers.

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: jbbm63
CKXP --

I guess I could return the AC Freezer 64 Pro, I am in enough good terms with the clone shop's owner to do an exchange for a Thermalright XP-90... But looking at this HSF's pictures on the frozencpu.com & ncix.com websites, the retention clip(s) don't seem to be very ajustable. They look like if one cannot go the "gentle route" to attach them to the retention bracket around the CPU. Did you take any special precaution / use any secret handshake to install the HSF without breaking to CPU core?

Furthermore, what fan do you use with your XP-90?

Cheers.

here's the fan that i'm using Panaflo L1A 92mm ,the XP-90 is fairly easy to install...a little nerve racking at first, but should go without any problems.

i usually "hook" one side of the retention bracket first, once it's hooked it will still have enough slack that you can guide HS over the die without making contact with it. once it's centered, lay the HS on top of die and "gentle" press down the clips with your fingers to snap the two remaining clips into place, or you can use a jeweler's flat head screw driver(there are notches in the clips that will allow you to do that)

 

[jbbm63]

CKXP --

thanks for the info. You did not mention what kind of thermal coupling you use between the HSF & the CPU: a smidgen of, say, ArcticSilver or some "pre-made" thermal pad like one can find on eBay (e.g.: http://cgi.ebay.ca/5-CHOMERICS-T725-CPU...QQcategoryZ46322QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)?

I also wonder if a SilenX 2000rpm 36cfm fan (14dB!!!) might not be an acceptable alternative to the Panaflo, as I am aiming for *quiet* (14dB is lower than 27dB)...

I must say I still am a wee bit uncomfortable for a HSF to touch the CPU core directly without any form of "protection" for the latter (like the "foam nipples" of the older Athlon XPs, or some sort of shim *or* the MSI Mobile Pad). This is why I am still looking towards to more feedback before making a move, as I don't want to waste a perfectly good CPU. The MSI heat spreader ("MSI Mobile Pad") is still an intriguing (sp?) possibility because of that.

Cheers.

 

[pkrush]

If you really want some protection against core crushing, get yourself a sheet of crafter's foam (soft foam sheets, about 2-3mm thick) and a hole punch. Punch several small dots of the material out, stack them 2 layers high, and glue them to the corners of the CPU. This will at least help prevent you from crushing your core. Another option is to look on one of the extreme overclocking forums (Xtremesystems, etc.). Many people there have removed the heatspreader from their desktop chip (for better cooling) and you might be able to buy one of these heatspreaders off a standard processor from them. It should fit fine.

 

[kenji4life]

Originally posted by: pkrush
If you really want some protection against core crushing, get yourself a sheet of crafter's foam (soft foam sheets, about 2-3mm thick) and a hole punch. Punch several small dots of the material out, stack them 2 layers high, and glue them to the corners of the CPU. This will at least help prevent you from crushing your core. Another option is to look on one of the extreme overclocking forums (Xtremesystems, etc.). Many people there have removed the heatspreader from their desktop chip (for better cooling) and you might be able to buy one of these heatspreaders off a standard processor from them. It should fit fine.

Very good advice.

Also I'd like to add that the silenx/panaflo both seem like good solutions, however you should be able to slow the panaflo down with lower voltage to achieve the same db as the silenx,
still yet, 27 db is on the very low end of 'audible' whatsoever in ambient room/computer levels, assuming the ratings are even and true.

 

[jbbm63]

pkrush --

thanks for the info. I must admit that my jaw did drop at the idea that some would remove the heatspreader off their CPU -- some people must have a lot of spare money to risk destroying their CPU when removing the heatspreader, though I guess the risk must be limited if you know what you are doing. This being said, this did peek my curiosity. Are there different "grades" of heatspreader, depending on the CPU speed or are they all the same (within the same cpu brand)?

I also wonder if one simply puts on a smidgen of thermal grease on both sides of the heatspreader and simply "drops" it onto the CPU, or if you have to "lock" it in place with some adhesive?

kenji4life --

I already have 4 cooling fans in my video box (2 in, 2 out), plus the PSU's fan, this is why I am aiming for quiest as possible. I have bought 4 SilenX 80mm 11db fans to replace the current ones, so if I can get a CPU fan to match the rest, I might actually have a sane home office where I can hear myself think. Of course, this might just be an over-reaction to working in a noisy computer room during the day.

I will also have a look at the Xtremesystems + other forums to see if anyone has used the MSI Mobile Pad (I am still considering this as a fallback in case I could not procure any other CPU core "protection") and how it compares to the "official" heatspreaders. This and how easy it is to get an "orphaned" heatspreader.

Cheers.

 

[jbbm63]

post-scriptum (it always happens after you click on "reply"/"save"/whatever...) --

just in case pkrush's suggestion of using crafter's foam to create "foam nipples" (isn't there a better name for these?) to protect the CPU core might end up being my only reasonnable solution:

(1) can this foam be bought at any fabric store? (anyone in Canada know if this could be found at BouClair or FabricLand/FabricVille ?)
(2) any special glue to use and/or avoid when it is time to glue the "nipples" (dots?!?) on the CPU?

Cheers.

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: jbbm63
CKXP --

thanks for the info. You did not mention what kind of thermal coupling you use between the HSF & the CPU: a smidgen of, say, ArcticSilver or some "pre-made" thermal pad like one can find on eBay (e.g.: http://cgi.ebay.ca/5-CHOMERICS-T725-CPU...QQcategoryZ46322QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)?

I also wonder if a SilenX 2000rpm 36cfm fan (14dB!!!) might not be an acceptable alternative to the Panaflo, as I am aiming for *quiet* (14dB is lower than 27dB)...

I must say I still am a wee bit uncomfortable for a HSF to touch the CPU core directly without any form of "protection" for the latter (like the "foam nipples" of the older Athlon XPs, or some sort of shim *or* the MSI Mobile Pad). This is why I am still looking towards to more feedback before making a move, as I don't want to waste a perfectly good CPU. The MSI heat spreader ("MSI Mobile Pad") is still an intriguing (sp?) possibility because of that.

Cheers.

Do you have any Athlon XP's sitting around? If so, take one out, look at the foam "nipples" and push them in with your fingernail. See how little resistance they really have. They are not really offering any protection.

Then mount a HS/F on that Athlon XP and see the extreme force put down on it. Then think of how little those foam items are actually taking of that.

 

[jbbm63]

homestarmy & others have made a good point in that maybe I might not absolutely need a heatspreader after all... The question seems to be, now, which HSF would truly work? The Thermalright XP-90 has been suggested by CKXP, whilst myocardia suggested the Scythe Ninja. Just to add to the confusion, I discovered this afternoon that there is a HSF *designed for the mobile A64* !!! It's the Thermaltake CL-P0312 (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/2005/coolers/itbu/cl-p0312/cl-p0312.htm), which does not seem available anymore... or outside of the UK. Considering the number of mobile A64 being sold on eBay and elsewhere, I really wonder why it's not more readilly (sp?) available.

Anyway, I might go with the ThermalRight, as it is available locally. But before I do that, I'd like to confirm that the ArcticCooling Freezer64 Pro does not do the job (i.e. no contact with the CPU core, essentially), as it is cheaper than the ThermalRight solution.

Cheers.

 

[stephencollier]

Has it been confirmed that the Asus K8N can use a Mobile Athlon 64?

I bought the K8N, but it can't even boot up with a Sempron (or any E6 revision chip), unless it gets a BIOS update. So, I'm hitting ebay and wondering if I really can use a mobile Athlon 64 on the cheap.

So do these mobile processors always work in the desktop boards?

 

[CKXP]

So do these mobile processors always work in the desktop boards?

NO...depending on the revision some boards will require a BIOS update, i had a EPoX EP-8NPA SLI that would not work with my 3700 Newark(rev. E5), i replaced the EpoX with a DFI Infinty N4x that worked right out of the box.

 

[stephencollier]

Thanks for the info. Looks like a CG revision mobile processor should work. You guys think I can get a copper heat pipe HSF that has mountings for all the current sockets and get it slapped on the unlidded CPU?