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Fans want Moore

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Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There was more truth to Moores Documentary than Bushes reasons for invading and occupying Iraq!

ROFL. You wish.
Where are the WMDs?

The difference, my friend, is that Bush had sources telling him otherwise. Of course, we now know that the intelligence surroudning those sources was faulty. Show me a single FACTUAL document that supports anything Michael Moore presented in his movie.


my memories of moore's film tell me that most of what he presented was video clips so on their own those should be pretty factual. His means of presentation is obviously quite slanted but that doesn't mean it's a lie.
He leads people to false conclusions and creates false impressions. Those are lies. The apologists for Moore would take a right-winger to task for doing the same sort of thing.

Of course, I don't expect the blindered supporters of Moore to be anything less than full blown hypocrites and shallow intellectuals, the very type of people they profess to resent.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There was more truth to Moores Documentary than Bushes reasons for invading and occupying Iraq!

ROFL. You wish.
Where are the WMDs?

The difference, my friend, is that Bush had sources telling him otherwise. Of course, we now know that the intelligence surroudning those sources was faulty. Show me a single FACTUAL document that supports anything Michael Moore presented in his movie.


my memories of moore's film tell me that most of what he presented was video clips so on their own those should be pretty factual. His means of presentation is obviously quite slanted but that doesn't mean it's a lie.
He leads people to false conclusions and creates false impressions. Those are lies. The apologists for Moore would take a right-winger to task for doing the same sort of thing.

Of course, I don't expect the blindered supporters of Moore to be anything less than full blown hypocrites and shallow intellectuals, the very type of people they profess to resent.
Hey I took Moores film with a grain of salt and there where somethings in it that had me rolling my eyes but to say it was all BS is complete BS. Also, you don't have to be a Moore apologist to be able to take the Dub to task for doing what you accuse Moore of doing as it is documented that he did exactly that with Iraq. (Yellow Cake anyone?"

 
Originally posted by: jpeyton

You obviously have some personal interest in the big pharms or you wouldn't be protecting them.

Why are they thriving in the first place? At the expense of the true well being of people...that's how.

If it takes ruining the pharms to change how they help people, so be it.

The industry as a whole has a LONG, LONG way to go if they want to revamp their core business philosophies...which in earnest, they don't want to revamp at all because they are making so much money the current way.

Here is a FACT: since TV advertisements of prescription drugs was approved several years back, the big pharms have spent 5x their R&D budget on media advertisement. Shows you where their priorities really are. They introduce dozens of new drugs every year, but about 10% of them are actual new drugs...most are "me-too" or copycat drugs.

You're correct that I have a personal interest in them..heck here in this liberal cesspool mASSachusetts to make any real money either you are a doctor, lawyer, or you work for Pharma/Biotech ...if you don't then you move fifty miles out of the city, commute and are lucky to make $12 a hour....

What proposed solution to you then suggest?? this is a capatalist society we are built upon, should they give their product away?

If the pharms are ruined do you really think anyone will step in to take their place? and don't even bother saying the government as that will be a good laugh.

We should be lucky that they introduce any new drugs at all to society let alone "only" 10%....I work day in and day out with R&D scientists, I know how successful drugs or even candidates can effect their lives...I know how while the marketing sucks and even they are not fans of the commercials they realize that the ends justify the means and if they want money to continue their work then the TV ads are the best tool to use.

Whatever though, if MM wants to kill pharma then let him...I can always find work, maybe it will turn the tables in massachusetts and finally this suck state will come to its senses, my problem is that Pharma is being equated with evil, again much along the lines of big tobacco and fast food....while you might see things that way, fact is the industry no matter how crappy their marketing and whatever else is they do produce products that help, and their scientists do want to continue their work as they are dedicated to what they do....I would rather see pharma R&D PHDs getting the big bucks over some slimy trail lawyer or the like.
 
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: jpeyton

You obviously have some personal interest in the big pharms or you wouldn't be protecting them.

Why are they thriving in the first place? At the expense of the true well being of people...that's how.

If it takes ruining the pharms to change how they help people, so be it.

The industry as a whole has a LONG, LONG way to go if they want to revamp their core business philosophies...which in earnest, they don't want to revamp at all because they are making so much money the current way.

Here is a FACT: since TV advertisements of prescription drugs was approved several years back, the big pharms have spent 5x their R&D budget on media advertisement. Shows you where their priorities really are. They introduce dozens of new drugs every year, but about 10% of them are actual new drugs...most are "me-too" or copycat drugs.

You're correct that I have a personal interest in them..heck here in this liberal cesspool mASSachusetts to make any real money either you are a doctor, lawyer, or you work for Pharma/Biotech ...if you don't then you move fifty miles out of the city, commute and are lucky to make $12 a hour....

What proposed solution to you then suggest?? this is a capatalist society we are built upon, should they give their product away?

If the pharms are ruined do you really think anyone will step in to take their place? and don't even bother saying the government as that will be a good laugh.

We should be lucky that they introduce any new drugs at all to society let alone "only" 10%....I work day in and day out with R&D scientists, I know how successful drugs or even candidates can effect their lives...I know how while the marketing sucks and even they are not fans of the commercials they realize that the ends justify the means and if they want money to continue their work then the TV ads are the best tool to use.

Whatever though, if MM wants to kill pharma then let him...I can always find work, maybe it will turn the tables in massachusetts and finally this suck state will come to its senses, my problem is that Pharma is being equated with evil, again much along the lines of big tobacco and fast food....while you might see things that way, fact is the industry no matter how crappy their marketing and whatever else is they do produce products that help, and their scientists do want to continue their work as they are dedicated to what they do....I would rather see pharma R&D PHDs getting the big bucks over some slimy trail lawyer or the like.
If Moore is as successful hurting the Pharms as he was getting Kerry elected you have nothing to worry about!
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There was more truth to Moores Documentary than Bushes reasons for invading and occupying Iraq!

ROFL. You wish.
Where are the WMDs?

The difference, my friend, is that Bush had sources telling him otherwise. Of course, we now know that the intelligence surroudning those sources was faulty. Show me a single FACTUAL document that supports anything Michael Moore presented in his movie.


my memories of moore's film tell me that most of what he presented was video clips so on their own those should be pretty factual. His means of presentation is obviously quite slanted but that doesn't mean it's a lie.
He leads people to false conclusions and creates false impressions. Those are lies. The apologists for Moore would take a right-winger to task for doing the same sort of thing.

Of course, I don't expect the blindered supporters of Moore to be anything less than full blown hypocrites and shallow intellectuals, the very type of people they profess to resent.

Any false conclusions you come to from the movie are only caused by your own ignorance. But what Moore does isn't really of the most importance anyway - what the president does is.
 
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There was more truth to Moores Documentary than Bushes reasons for invading and occupying Iraq!

ROFL. You wish.
Where are the WMDs?

The difference, my friend, is that Bush had sources telling him otherwise. Of course, we now know that the intelligence surroudning those sources was faulty. Show me a single FACTUAL document that supports anything Michael Moore presented in his movie.


my memories of moore's film tell me that most of what he presented was video clips so on their own those should be pretty factual. His means of presentation is obviously quite slanted but that doesn't mean it's a lie.
He leads people to false conclusions and creates false impressions. Those are lies. The apologists for Moore would take a right-winger to task for doing the same sort of thing.

Of course, I don't expect the blindered supporters of Moore to be anything less than full blown hypocrites and shallow intellectuals, the very type of people they profess to resent.

Any false conclusions you come to from the movie are only caused by your own ignorance.
I'm not coming to false conclusions, Moore is trying to lead people there. Those who come to believe where Moore is leading them by the nose are the ignorant ones. Do you actually believe his tripe?

But what Moore does isn't really of the most importance anyway - what the president does is.
The president is not the subject of this thread. Moore is.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There was more truth to Moores Documentary than Bushes reasons for invading and occupying Iraq!

ROFL. You wish.
Where are the WMDs?

The difference, my friend, is that Bush had sources telling him otherwise. Of course, we now know that the intelligence surroudning those sources was faulty. Show me a single FACTUAL document that supports anything Michael Moore presented in his movie.


my memories of moore's film tell me that most of what he presented was video clips so on their own those should be pretty factual. His means of presentation is obviously quite slanted but that doesn't mean it's a lie.
He leads people to false conclusions and creates false impressions. Those are lies. The apologists for Moore would take a right-winger to task for doing the same sort of thing.

Of course, I don't expect the blindered supporters of Moore to be anything less than full blown hypocrites and shallow intellectuals, the very type of people they profess to resent.

Any false conclusions you come to from the movie are only caused by your own ignorance.
I'm not coming to false conclusions, Moore is trying to lead people there. Those who come to believe where Moore is leading them by the nose are the ignorant ones. Do you actually believe his tripe?

But what Moore does isn't really of the most importance anyway - what the president does is.
The president is not the subject of this thread. Moore is.

I didn't mean you specifically coming to false conclusions - I meant people in general.

And the president came up b/c people said - the president lied - oh moore lied - etc.... and the film is about the president so I think it's valid to bring up. Don't go all content-police on me.

As far as believing things as they are presented - some parts of the film can't really be refuted b/c they are they are in plane view to be seen. One just needs to be aware and active during the film as to filter out the less fact-based and opinionated parts.
 
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ntdz
Bush won the official "People's choice award." Michael Moore is accepting his little statue while Bush is making policy.

There are people who still believe Bush is making policy? :laugh:
Just like there are people who believe Moore actually made a factual documentary. :laugh:

As opposed to a non-factual documentary? Hehe.

Dictionary.com:

1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

Yeah, but you'll note that Moore's movie is INELIGIBLE for any awards in the Documentary category. That would surely lead one to conclude that Moore's movie is (GASP!) NOT a documentary.

Jason
 
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: Geardo
MM should be in GITMO, his movie was a blatant propaganda peice designed to defeat George Bush, and the War in Iraq!
Dub's campaign was a blatant propaganda piece designed to dupe the fools and divert attention from his failure in Iraq.

Congratulations to Michael Moore. I am glad he is taking on HMO's now. I hope he continues to expose America's biggest liars and crooks.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over their own eyes since 1980

Then he would have to make a movie about dems....
 
Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: Geardo
MM should be in GITMO, his movie was a blatant propaganda peice designed to defeat George Bush, and the War in Iraq!
Dub's campaign was a blatant propaganda piece designed to dupe the fools and divert attention from his failure in Iraq.

Congratulations to Michael Moore. I am glad he is taking on HMO's now. I hope he continues to expose America's biggest liars and crooks.


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over their own eyes since 1980

Then he would have to make a movie about dems....

hahahahaha - I'd love to hear an argument for this being the case. I'm not fond of either party but if you want paint the dems as more "in the pockets of big business" that's hilarious.
 
Originally posted by: Tommunist
I didn't mean you specifically coming to false conclusions - I meant people in general.
Why should a movie that claims to be truthful and a documentary lead people to false conclusions?

And the president came up b/c people said - the president lied - oh moore lied - etc.... and the film is about the president so I think it's valid to bring up. Don't go all content-police on me.
Myself and others have asked those who make that claim many times to prove that Bush lied.

I've never seen anyone ever do it. A lie implies you know the truth beforehand. Feel free to prove that Bush actually knew the true facts before any of his supposed "lies."

As far as believing things as they are presented - some parts of the film can't really be refuted b/c they are they are in plane view to be seen. One just needs to be aware and active during the film as to filter out the less fact-based and opinionated parts.
Which "facts" can't be refuted in the film because they were in "plane" (sic) view?
 
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Yeah, but you'll note that Moore's movie is INELIGIBLE for any awards in the Documentary category. That would surely lead one to conclude that Moore's movie is (GASP!) NOT a documentary.

Jason

Just curious. I didn't bother to read any links, but why is it ineligible for documentary awards?

 
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Yeah, but you'll note that Moore's movie is INELIGIBLE for any awards in the Documentary category. That would surely lead one to conclude that Moore's movie is (GASP!) NOT a documentary.

Jason

Just curious. I didn't bother to read any links, but why is it ineligible for documentary awards?

It was considered to be propaganda

 
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Yeah, but you'll note that Moore's movie is INELIGIBLE for any awards in the Documentary category. That would surely lead one to conclude that Moore's movie is (GASP!) NOT a documentary.

Jason
One would conclude incorrectly. Fahrenheit 9/11 is not eligible for a Documentary Oscar because Moore released it to television too soon, before some Academy cut-off. It has absolutely nothing to do with the documentary quality or factual accuracy of the film.

Indeed, contrary to the incessant slurs of some Bush apologists here, there have been no material factual errors indentified in the film. Moore's presentation is obviously slanted; his facts are sound.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
I didn't mean you specifically coming to false conclusions - I meant people in general.
Why should a movie that claims to be truthful and a documentary lead people to false conclusions?

And the president came up b/c people said - the president lied - oh moore lied - etc.... and the film is about the president so I think it's valid to bring up. Don't go all content-police on me.
Myself and others have asked those who make that claim many times to prove that Bush lied. I've never seen anyone ever do it.
I firmly believe there is absolutely nothing that would persuade some of you Bush lied. There is already a mountain of evidence. His apologists flatly refuse to accept it. I suppose one might "prove" Bush lied by convicting him in a court of law. That obviously will not happen when Republicans control all branches of government. Even if he was convicted, however, based on past experience the Bush apologists would dismiss the conviction as a partisan attack. Their brains will not allow them to accept negative information about their Worship in Washington.


A lie implies you know the truth beforehand. Feel free to prove that Bush actually knew the true facts before any of his supposed "lies."
A lie is any statement or act intended to deceive. There is no doubt Bush and his administration routinely made statements and took actions to deceive the American public, Congress, the U.N., and the rest of the world. His apologists would be far more credible if they stopped denying the obvious deluge of lies, and started trying to justify them as a necessary means to an end. At least then we could engage in a meaningful discussion about whether the lies were justified. Instead, we are forced to repeatedly deconstruct the same disingenuous denials, diversions, and attacks.


As far as believing things as they are presented - some parts of the film can't really be refuted b/c they are they are in plane view to be seen. One just needs to be aware and active during the film as to filter out the less fact-based and opinionated parts.
Which "facts" can't be refuted in the film because they were in "plane" (sic) view?
As I said in my post above, there have been no material factual errors confirmed in Fahrenheit 9/11. While there is no end of attacks by the Bushies, all have been convincingly refuted. His presentation was biased, his facts solid.


Edit: typo
 
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Yeah, but you'll note that Moore's movie is INELIGIBLE for any awards in the Documentary category. That would surely lead one to conclude that Moore's movie is (GASP!) NOT a documentary.

Jason

Just curious. I didn't bother to read any links, but why is it ineligible for documentary awards?

It was considered to be propaganda
Try again kiddo.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
I didn't mean you specifically coming to false conclusions - I meant people in general.
Why should a movie that claims to be truthful and a documentary lead people to false conclusions?

And the president came up b/c people said - the president lied - oh moore lied - etc.... and the film is about the president so I think it's valid to bring up. Don't go all content-police on me.
Myself and others have asked those who make that claim many times to prove that Bush lied. I've never seen anyone ever do it.
I firmly believe there is absolutely nothing that would persuade some of you Bush lied. There is already a mountain of evidence. His apologists flatly refuse to accept it. I suppose one might "prove" Bush lied by convicting him in a court of law. That obviously will not happen when Republicans control all branches of government. Even if he was convicted, however, based on past experience the Bush apologists would dismiss the conviction as a partisan attack. Their brains will not allow them to accept negative information about their Worship in Washington.


A lie implies you know the truth beforehand. Feel free to prove that Bush actually knew the true facts before any of his supposed "lies."
A lie is any statement or act intended to deceive. There is no doubt Bush and his administration routinely made statements and took actions to deceive the American public, Congress, the U.N., and the rest of the world. His apologists would be far more credible if they stopped denying the obvious deluge of lies, and started trying to justify them as a necessary means to an end. At least then we could engage in a meaningful discussion about whether the lies were justified. Instead, we are forced to repeatedly deconstruct the same disingenuous denials, diversions, and attacks.


As far as believing things as they are presented - some parts of the film can't really be refuted b/c they are they are in plane view to be seen. One just needs to be aware and active during the film as to filter out the less fact-based and opinionated parts.
Which "facts" can't be refuted in the film because they were in "plane" (sic) view?
As I said in my post above, there have been no material factual errors confirmed in Fahrenheit 9/11. While there is no end of attacks by the Bushies, all have been convincingly refuted. His presentation was biased, his facts solid.
Chicken?
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There was more truth to Moores Documentary than Bushes reasons for invading and occupying Iraq!

ROFL. You wish.
Where are the WMDs?

The difference, my friend, is that Bush had sources telling him otherwise. Of course, we now know that the intelligence surroudning those sources was faulty. Show me a single FACTUAL document that supports anything Michael Moore presented in his movie.


my memories of moore's film tell me that most of what he presented was video clips so on their own those should be pretty factual. His means of presentation is obviously quite slanted but that doesn't mean it's a lie.
He leads people to false conclusions and creates false impressions. Those are lies. The apologists for Moore would take a right-winger to task for doing the same sort of thing.

Of course, I don't expect the blindered supporters of Moore to be anything less than full blown hypocrites and shallow intellectuals, the very type of people they profess to resent.

Any false conclusions you come to from the movie are only caused by your own ignorance.
I'm not coming to false conclusions, Moore is trying to lead people there. Those who come to believe where Moore is leading them by the nose are the ignorant ones. Do you actually believe his tripe?

But what Moore does isn't really of the most importance anyway - what the president does is.
The president is not the subject of this thread. Moore is.



Bush is the subject of the film which this thread is about.

Not a whole lot off topic, wouldn't you agree?
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
I didn't mean you specifically coming to false conclusions - I meant people in general.
Why should a movie that claims to be truthful and a documentary lead people to false conclusions?

And the president came up b/c people said - the president lied - oh moore lied - etc.... and the film is about the president so I think it's valid to bring up. Don't go all content-police on me.
Myself and others have asked those who make that claim many times to prove that Bush lied.

I've never seen anyone ever do it. A lie implies you know the truth beforehand. Feel free to prove that Bush actually knew the true facts before any of his supposed "lies."

As far as believing things as they are presented - some parts of the film can't really be refuted b/c they are they are in plane view to be seen. One just needs to be aware and active during the film as to filter out the less fact-based and opinionated parts.
Which "facts" can't be refuted in the film because they were in "plane" (sic) view?

1. It could lead someone to false conclusions b/c not all the information is there and some parts are opinion. I don't recall saying it was a documentary but I'm too lazy to go look.

2. He lied b/c he purposely selected the intel he wanted and disregarded intel that opposed his goals. It's going to be impossible to conclusively prove this but the fact that this is the MOST secretive administration in the history of the US leads me to believe that he was not telliong the whole truth about this.

3. Any time there is actual video of someone saying something (assuming there weren't some sort of hollywood effects going on) - that would be plain view.

4. Grow up about the spelling errors man - if I knew you were going to take the red pen to anything I type I would have read it over after quickly typing it. If you want to turn this into a string of personal attacks we can do that but I'd like to think I'm above that most of the time. I know you get all up in arms when people attack W but history will paint him and his administration as one of the worst our nation has seen.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Yeah, but you'll note that Moore's movie is INELIGIBLE for any awards in the Documentary category. That would surely lead one to conclude that Moore's movie is (GASP!) NOT a documentary.

Jason
One would conclude incorrectly. Fahrenheit 9/11 is not eligible for a Documentary Oscar because Moore released it to television too soon, before some Academy cut-off. It has absolutely nothing to do with the documentary quality or factual accuracy of the film.

Indeed, contrary to the incessant slurs of some Bush apologists here, there have been no material factual errors indentified in the film. Moore's presentation is obviously slanted; his facts are sound.

As per typical, Bow, you haven't got your facts straight yet:

http://bowlingfortruth.com/fah...it911/first8months.htm

David Koppel:

The movie lauds an anti-Bush riot that took place in Washington, D.C., on the day of Bush?s inauguration. Moore continues:

?No President had ever witnessed such a thing on his inauguration day. And for the next eight months it didn?t get any better for George W. Bush. He couldn?t get his judges appointed; he had trouble getting his legislation passed; and he lost Republican control of the Senate. His approval ratings in the polls began to sink.?

Part of this is true. Once Vermont Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican party, Democrats controlled the Senate, and stalled the confirmation (not ?appointment?) of some of the judges whom Bush had nominated for the federal courts.



Congress did enact the top item on Bush?s agenda: a large tax cut. During the summer, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives easily passed many of Bush?s other agenda items, including the bill whose numbering reflected the President?s top priority: H.R. 1, the Bush ?No Child Left Behind? education bill. The fate of the Bush bills in the Democratic-controlled Senate, as of August 2001, was uncertain. The Senate later did pass No Child Left Behind, but some other Bush proposals did not pass.



Did Bush?s approval ratings begin to sink? Not really. Moore shows a screen displaying Bush with 53% job approval on May 3, and 45% on September 5. Strangely, the screen shot includes no source for this alleged poll.



University of Minnesota History Professor Steven Ruggles has compiled a chart showing Bush?s approval ratings in 13 major polls throughout his Presidency. According the chart, never during 2001 did Bush?s approval rating fall as low as 45% in any of the polls.



Nor did Bush?s approval ratings really ?sink? after inauguration day. Bush?s popularity ratings rose significantly in April (when his tax cut was the main issue in Congress), and then returned to more normal levels in June. From Bush?s inaugural until September 10, almost all of his approval ratings were in the 50-60% range, with only a few results from an occasional poll either higher or lower.

FROM THE MOVIE:

George Bush spent the rest of August at the ranch where life was less complicated.

This is said to give the impression that Bush wasn?t working for a whole month, and never traveled away from the ranch.

BUT.............

From the Official White House Press Briefing for August travel arrangements;

While in Texas, he will have a working vacation there. I was going to do this at the end of the briefing. Let me give you some information now. But the President will travel for approximately two days a week each week during his visit to Texas. The upcoming week, he will travel one day to build a house in nearby Waco, Texas, to participate in a Habitat for Humanity event.

The following week, the President will travel to Colorado and New Mexico. The week following that, the President will travel roughly three days to Wisconsin and other locations TBD. He?ll also travel to Pennsylvania that week.

The following week, the President will have an event in nearby San Antonio, and you can also anticipate travel over Labor Day weekend to some unnamed cities as of this point.

Now, before you asshats say ?Is that the best you can do??

I must say , yes.

That?s the best I can do with the first 4 minutes of the movie.

Now.............to minute 5.

Here's some further information:
August 1, 2001: Nominated six US Attorneys, two judges for affirmation by Congress.
Placed phone calls to PM Blair and Ahern to discuss matters between
Britain and Northern Ireland.
President announces an agreement on the Patients Bill of Right
President addresses National Urban League Conference
August 2, 2001: President meets with House and Senate education leaders.
August 3, 2001: Placed six more nominations for US Attorneys.
President speaks to press at meeting to discuss his first six months in
office and the agenda for the future.
President attends a ceremony in East Room honoring Lance Armstrong
August 4, 2001: President?s Radio Address
August 7, 2001: Press conference in Waco, TX with pool of reporters
August 8, 2001: President helps build a home with Habitat For Humanity, then addresses
the group on faith-based and community initiatives.
August 9, 2001: Addressed the nation on stem-cell research
August 10, 2001: Announces nomination of two US Ambassadors
August 11, 2001: President?s Radio Address
August 13, 2001: Presidential Ceremony to sign the Agriculture Supplemental Bill
President holds two press conferences with traveling White House pool.

The rest of the month had just as much, if not more, activity. I will omit it here to save space,
but you can find complete information at the following pages:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/20010801.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/20010803.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/20010809.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/20010822.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news...01/08/20010831-15.html

"In a long and paranoid (and tedious) section at the opening of the film" liberal columnist Christopher Hitchens says Moore "makes heavy innuendoes about the flights that took members of the Bin Laden family out of the country after Sept. 11". As Hitchens notes in a recent article, he too had a problem with this, but changed his position when the facts came out. So why didn't Moore? From Hitchens:

I banged on about this myself at the time and wrote a Nation column drawing attention to the groveling Larry King interview with the insufferable Prince Bandar, which Moore excerpts. However, recent developments have not been kind to our Mike. In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights.

Moore interviews former White House terrorism czar Richard Clarke, who, as Newsmax noted, served as a principal source for Fahrenheit 9/11. However, Clarke has gone on record saying that the central premise of Moore's film is "a mistake." From Newsmax:

In an interview with the Associated Press, Clarke took issue with Moore's criticism that President Bush allowed prominent Saudis, including members of Osama bin Laden's family, to fly out of the U.S. in the days after the 9/11 attacks.

Saying Moore's version of the episode has provoked "a tempest in a tea pot," Clarke called his decision to make the bin Laden family flyout a big part of the film's indictment against Bush "a mistake."

Note the word "HIS". Not president Bush's decision...Richard Clarke's (a published Bush critic) decision. Once again, Moore's own source proves him wrong.

"After 9/11, I think the Saudis were perfectly justified ... in fearing the possibility of vigilantism against Saudis in this country. When they asked to evacuate their citizens ... I thought it was a perfectly normal request," he explained.

In May, Clarke confessed that he, and he alone made the decision to approve the flyouts.

A desperate Moore-fan has to really scramble over this one yet again to find some excuse for Moore to somehow not be lying here. But Clarke leave no room for honest mistake here.

"It didn?t get any higher than me,? he told The Hill newspaper. "On 9/11, 9/12 and 9/13, many things didn?t get any higher than me. I decided it in consultation with the FBI.?

STILL want to give Moore a free pass for missing Clarke's confession in May and still brush this off as an honest mistake that Moore spends a large chunk of time on in his movie? Not a smart move if you want to keep from looking foolish.

Clarke told the 9/11 Commission the same thing in March, after first detailing the episode for Vanity Fair magazine last August - leaving plenty of time for Moore to adjust his film to the facts as recounted by his primary source.

And back to Hitches:

This might not matter so much to the ethos of Fahrenheit 9/11, except that?as you might expect?Clarke is presented throughout as the brow-furrowed ethical hero of the entire post-9/11 moment. And it does not seem very likely that, in his open admission about the Bin Laden family evacuation, Clarke is taking a fall, or a spear in the chest, for the Bush administration. So, that's another bust for this windy and bloated cinematic "key to all mythologies."

But this entire criticism has a huge gaping damming hole in its logic, as if we are to believe Moore's argument that Bush is in an unseemly partnership with the Saudi's, why then didn't they join "the Coalition of the Willing"? Hitchens asks:

Why instead did they force the United States to switch its regional military headquarters to Qatar? If the Bush family and the al-Saud dynasty live in each other's pockets, as is alleged in a sort of vulgar sub-Brechtian scene with Arab headdresses replacing top hats, then how come the most reactionary regime in the region has been powerless to stop Bush from demolishing its clone in Kabul and its buffer regime in Baghdad?

Logic and historical fact crush Moore's argument to pieces, but Moore's appeal is never with facts or logic, but rather emotion, and thus the audience is tempted to go along with his leaps of believability due to their presentation. The truth is much different:

The Saudis hate, as they did in 1991, the idea that Iraq's recuperated oil industry might challenge their near-monopoly. They fear the liberation of the Shiite Muslims they so despise. To make these elementary points is to collapse the whole pathetic edifice of the film's "theory." Perhaps Moore prefers the pro-Saudi Kissinger/Scowcroft plan for the Middle East, where stability trumps every other consideration and where one dare not upset the local house of cards, or killing-field of Kurds? This would be a strange position for a purported radical. Then again, perhaps he does not take this conservative line because his real pitch is not to any audience member with a serious interest in foreign policy. It is to the provincial isolationist.
I could go on and on with this all damn day, but it would waste far too much time and space. The point is, Bow, that YES, there are FACTUAL errors-o-plenty in Moore's film, and his appeal is, as it has always been, to simple emotions and NOT to facts. Moore is not an intellectual, he is an emotionalist, pure as the driven snow.

This is not to say I LIKE Bush; on the contrary I find him to be rather weak as a president in charge of a military operation. His insistence on fighting this war in as politically correct a way as possible is disturbing and has only resulted in the deaths of far too many good soldiers (though statistically speaking, still far less than many other conflicts). His domestic policies are absolutely atrocious as he keeps spending like a liberal Democrat's wet dream only could, gives MORE subsidies to farmers and continuously assaults civilization with his absurd religious proclamations and refusals to fund important science (ie, Stem Cell research) that can save lives and reduce suffering for all mankind. As presidents go, he is a SHAMEFUL excuse of a man, and during the elections I found the Republicans tendency to paint him as Reaganesque (which he most assuredly is NOT) to be offensive in the highest.

Jason
 

I'm afraid I can only trust Moore to present things in an unbiased way about the same amount I can trust a group whose main goal is to discredit Moore to present things in an unbiased way. My guess is the whole truth is somewhere in the middle. If someone without any political agenda wanted to do some real research and present things in an unbiased way I'd be happy to check it out and maybe believe more of it.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tommunist
I didn't mean you specifically coming to false conclusions - I meant people in general.
Why should a movie that claims to be truthful and a documentary lead people to false conclusions?

And the president came up b/c people said - the president lied - oh moore lied - etc.... and the film is about the president so I think it's valid to bring up. Don't go all content-police on me.
Myself and others have asked those who make that claim many times to prove that Bush lied. I've never seen anyone ever do it.
I firmly believe there is absolutely nothing that would persuade some of you Bush lied. There is already a mountain of evidence. His apologists flatly refuse to accept it. I suppose one might "prove" Bush lied by convicting him in a court of law. That obviously will not happen when Republicans control all branches of government. Even if he was convicted, however, based on past experience the Bush apologists would dismiss the conviction as a partisan attack. Their brains will not allow them to accept negative information about their Worship in Washington.


A lie implies you know the truth beforehand. Feel free to prove that Bush actually knew the true facts before any of his supposed "lies."
A lie is any statement or act intended to deceive. There is no doubt Bush and his administration routinely made statements and took actions to deceive the American public, Congress, the U.N., and the rest of the world. His apologists would be far more credible if they stopped denying the obvious deluge of lies, and started trying to justify them as a necessary means to an end. At least then we could engage in a meaningful discussion about whether the lies were justified. Instead, we are forced to repeatedly deconstruct the same disingenuous denials, diversions, and attacks.


As far as believing things as they are presented - some parts of the film can't really be refuted b/c they are they are in plane view to be seen. One just needs to be aware and active during the film as to filter out the less fact-based and opinionated parts.
Which "facts" can't be refuted in the film because they were in "plane" (sic) view?
As I said in my post above, there have been no material factual errors confirmed in Fahrenheit 9/11. While there is no end of attacks by the Bushies, all have been convincingly refuted. His presentation was biased, his facts solid.
Chicken?
I have a deadline I'm trying to meet right now so I'll be brief.

As far as the accusation that Bush lied, all I ask for is actual proof that he knowingly and with malice aforethough presented information he certainly knew to be untruthful. As yet I've seen nobody prove that. Til then, the "Bush LIED" proclamation is purely rhetorical. Provide the actual proof and stop with the semantic arguments on what your opinion of a lie is. We all know what a lie is and trying to spin it elsewise comes off as condescending and quite insulting.

As to the factual errors in F9/11. They have been proven and are elucidated on a number of sites very plainly and very factually. The one about the bin Laden family being flown out is one glaring error and one that Moore had ample time to fix, though he was obviously too concerned with getting his film out at a time when its lies would have the most impact on Bush. Moore doesn'[t care about facts. If he did he would have held his film until the facts were correct.

If you want some info on the material factual errors of F9/11, go here.

Is the site biased? Of course. It's biased against Moore because he's an idiot. Is the content and its accusations against Moore and F9/11 wrong? Read it and decide yourself.

Then go rent FarhenHype 9/11. If I can watch Moore's crap to the end to see his viewpoint, others should be just as open-minded and watch the rebuttal to his film with an open mind, then decide.
 
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