Faith required for POTUS?

[jonks]

Huckabee feels he's surged because of god, who wants him to win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSQNSlUUoOc&eurl

Romney being consistent:
"I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith, nor should he be rejected because of his faith," - Mitt Romney, at the George Bush Presidential Library and Museum today.

Compare with:
"We need to have a person of faith lead the country," - Mitt Romney, February 17, 2007.

One way to read what Romney is saying in those two quotes as making partial sense is "a person should not be elected because of his faith, nor rejected because of his faith, so long as he has a faith." a.k.a. "Anyone but an atheist". I obviously disagree that a faith is needed at all, but he's entitled to his opinion.

 

[Skitzer]

Issues of Faith should never be considered or even discussed in a Presidential election.

I don't understand the emphasis on this topic. Why do we even want to go there??

As far as Romneys statements ... I'm guessing he made those statements in part because atheists are a minority and he didn't feel he would lose anything by the implications, (If in fact he meant any).

 

[RightIsWrong]

Of course faith is required. Most don't realize though that the faith needed is ours and not theirs.

We elect someone and hope that the faith that we put in them to not FUBAR the country is the right choice.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Romney being consistent:
"I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith, nor should he be rejected because of his faith," - Mitt Romney, at the George Bush Presidential Library and Museum today.

Compare with:
"We need to have a person of faith lead the country," - Mitt Romney, February 17, 2007.

One way to read what Romney is saying in those two quotes as making partial sense is "a person should not be elected because of his faith, nor rejected because of his faith, so long as he has a faith." a.k.a. "Anyone but an atheist". I obviously disagree that a faith is needed at all, but he's entitled to his opinion.

I think in his first quote above he's speaking more about the specific denomination (I.e., in his case Mormon).

I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

I believe later in his remarks he states that atheism it's own religion.

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

Hardcore atheism activists might take on some of the characteristics of religious leaders but I still don't think that holds true enough to declare atheism in itself as a religion.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

I believe later in his remarks he states that atheism it's own religion.

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

Hardcore atheism activists might take on some of the characteristics of religious leaders but I still don't think that holds true enough to declare atheism in itself as a religion.

Hardcore atheism is a religion. They practice it more rigourously then most "Christians"

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

I believe later in his remarks he states that atheism it's own religion.

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

Hardcore atheism activists might take on some of the characteristics of religious leaders but I still don't think that holds true enough to declare atheism in itself as a religion.

Hardcore atheism is a religion. They practice it more rigourously then most "Christians"

No we don't. Or maybe most of us are not what you consider hardcore atheists.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

I believe later in his remarks he states that atheism it's own religion.

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

Hardcore atheism activists might take on some of the characteristics of religious leaders but I still don't think that holds true enough to declare atheism in itself as a religion.

Hardcore atheism is a religion. They practice it more rigourously then most "Christians"

What about softcore atheism? I don't attend meetings, have bumper stickers, or buy books by Dawkins. I just don't believe in god or attend religious ceremonies. Don't confuse terminology. Faith != religion. I can't disprove god's existence any more than you can disprove that there is a soccer ball in orbit around Neptune. The difference is I don't let the ambiguity about the existence of the soccer ball play any role in my life, nor do I conform my behavior to arbitrary standards set by people who share my view about the soccer ball's existence.

Did I mention the soccer ball is invisible and non-corporeal?

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

I believe later in his remarks he states that atheism it's own religion.

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

Hardcore atheism activists might take on some of the characteristics of religious leaders but I still don't think that holds true enough to declare atheism in itself as a religion.

Hardcore atheism is a religion. They practice it more rigourously then most "Christians"

Yeah but by practice you are implying that it takes effort and that atheists spend energy "not believing", that's just not the case.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

The best illustration of this issue was the scene in the movie "Contact", when Jodie Foster's honest scientist loses to Tom Skerritt's hypocritical, populist manager...

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson
The best illustration of this issue was the scene in the movie "Contact", when Jodie Foster's honest scientist loses to Tom Skerritt's hypocritical, populist manager...

Well we saw what happened to him. God punishes the hypocrite! Not sure why the dozens of others around him had to go to, but I guess god killed em all and will sort em out later 🙂

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

I believe later in his remarks he states that atheism it's own religion.

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

Hardcore atheism activists might take on some of the characteristics of religious leaders but I still don't think that holds true enough to declare atheism in itself as a religion.

Hardcore atheism is a religion. They practice it more rigourously then most "Christians"

No we don't. Or maybe most of us are not what you consider hardcore atheists.

This is hardcore:

Link

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Fern
I agree with your assumption about the latter remark (i.e., no atheist). However, IMO that position takes a great deal of "faith" as well.

Fern

There is no credible evidence to suggest there is any higher power whatsoever, so I disagree that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which no evidence exists.

There is all kinds of credible evidence to suggest a higher power exists so yours is a faith that no such evidence exists. And from this faith that no such power exists comes your religion. You don't just not believe in God, you disbelieve in Him. You are sure he does not exist if you are an Atheist.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is all kinds of credible evidence to suggest a higher power exists

Really? What?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is all kinds of credible evidence to suggest a higher power exists

Really? What?

Well, for example, what happens when you sit down and think deeply about the fact that there is no meaning and let go of it.

Like any scientific proof, you have to actually do the experiment, no?

 

[Lemon law]

If Faith=religion=GWB&co.=total moral depravity, we have a powerful argument that no person of faith should ever even be allowed to run for POTUS.

At least an atheist has no one to blame but themselves if they happen to be morally depraved.

And God told me to do it because I am like Godly, always spins better than the devil made me do it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
If Faith=religion=GWB&co.=total moral depravity, we have a powerful argument that no person of faith should ever even be allowed to run for POTUS.

At least an atheist has no one to blame but themselves if they happen to be morally depraved.

And God told me to do it because I am like Godly, always spins better than the devil made me do it.

It's people who are good that do all the real damage.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Skitzer
Issues of Faith should never be considered or even discussed in a Presidential election.

I don't understand the emphasis on this topic. Why do we even want to go there??

As far as Romneys statements ... I'm guessing he made those statements in part because atheists are a minority and he didn't feel he would lose anything by the implications, (If in fact he meant any).

I take it you aren't old enough to remember, or even know about, JFK and the problems he had because he was Catholic.

He also gave a speech about his faith.
I believe his key line was along the lines of:
I am not a Catholic running to be President,
I am a guy running to be President who happens to be Catholic.

Of course he made it sound much better 🙂

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is all kinds of credible evidence to suggest a higher power exists

Really? What?

Well, for example, what happens when you sit down and think deeply about the fact that there is no meaning and let go of it.

Like any scientific proof, you have to actually do the experiment, no?

I don't think that a feeling you get while.. uhmm... meditating (I guess?) is very good evidence of a higher power. You know as well as I do that no objective evidence exists that points to the existence of a higher power.

And no, atheism requires no faith whatsoever... that's the whole point. You can say it's a religion, but then you're playing semantic games with the definition.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Huckabee is an idiot, and a threat to this nation.

Romney is also an idiot, but not quite as large of a threat.

Faith is not required in any way, shape, or form for anything. It is meaningless beyond one's own flesh and should NEVER be allowed as a consideration for anything. And obviously the founders felt the same way when it comes to government:

Article VI

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There is all kinds of credible evidence to suggest a higher power exists

Really? What?

Well, for example, what happens when you sit down and think deeply about the fact that there is no meaning and let go of it.

Like any scientific proof, you have to actually do the experiment, no?

I don't think that a feeling you get while.. uhmm... meditating (I guess?) is very good evidence of a higher power. You know as well as I do that no objective evidence exists that points to the existence of a higher power.

And no, atheism requires no faith whatsoever... that's the whole point. You can say it's a religion, but then you're playing semantic games with the definition.

Do you have faith that you are correct here? I think you do. You have taken the position, for example, that if there is no proof that a light is on then it is off. The fact is you have no idea whether God is real or not but you are assuming not in the lack of positive evidence, evidence, naturally, that you can comprehend.

But the more interesting question, I think, is what your attitude can tell you about what you feel. Does it upset you that people have faith, that they believe they are going to heaven and you are going to hell? I think in every atheist there is this kind of animosity, a rage that others escape into irrational thinking like good little sheep. No? Are you hostile to God because he abandoned you and took up with the childish naive. I sure am. Those lucky bastards get a free ride.

Edit: I guess I should add that if you haven't done the work that those who know God say is required to know him too, there is nothing anybody can say. You would be like a child arguing with an adult saying something like there is no such thing as sex. The child is wrong but he can't know that he is.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Do you have faith that you are correct here? I think you do. You have taken the position, for example, that if there is no proof that a light is on then it is off. The fact is you have no idea whether God is real or not but you are assuming not in the lack of positive evidence, evidence, naturally, that you can comprehend.

But the more interesting question, I think, is what your attitude can tell you about what you feel. Does it upset you that people have faith, that they believe they are going to heaven and you are going to hell? I think in every atheist there is this kind of animosity, a rage that others escape into irrational thinking like good little sheep. No? Are you hostile to God because he abandoned you and took up with the childish naive. I sure am. Those lucky bastards get a free ride.

Edit: I guess I should add that if you haven't done the work that those who know God say is required to know him too, there is nothing anybody can say. You would be like a child arguing with an adult saying something like there is no such thing as sex. The child is wrong but he can't know that he is.

It's not faith, it's a reasonable assumtion based upon the facts. I would say that the light is whatever the evidence presented to me most probably indicates... if there is no light coming from a lightbulb then any reasonable person would assume it is off. You're right that I have no idea if god is real or not, but lacking any evidence to show that he exists I would not believe in such a thing. The same thing goes for the flying spaghetti monster, the magical space teapot, and the gnomes at the bottom of my garden. If you say that no evidence is required to believe something is true, then you have effectively removed rational thought from the equasion. While you are perfectly welcome to do so, I won't be joining you.

It doesn't upset me that people think that they are going to heaven and I to hell though, no. You are right about one thing however...those who deny reality do bother me very much. I thought long and hard about this though, and I can't say it's jealousy at all... it's pity and contempt. I simultaneously feel sad for them for being caught up in something that is so obviously a lie, and I hate them for their weakness of mind.

I tried for a long time to be religious, my family was Catholic and I briefly dated a girl who I really gave it a shot for. I can't turn off my brain though... sadly enough it just doesn't work that way.

 

[HomerJS]

Romney also said in todays speech...

"Freedom requires religeon."

I kinda thought that freedom we're trying to spread in the middle east is aimed at the secularists in government.

Looks like a conflict to me.

 

[Moonbeam]

eskimospy: It's not faith, it's a reasonable assumtion based upon the facts.

M: I am not sure what facts you mean. I thought we had no facts.

e: I would say that the light is whatever the evidence presented to me most probably indicates... if there is no light coming from a lightbulb then any reasonable person would assume it is off.

M: Well I am talking about a bulb you can't see. I was suggesting there is no reason to prefer off to on in the absence of any data.

e: You're right that I have no idea if god is real or not, but lacking any evidence to show that he exists I would not believe in such a thing.

M: I know, but I also suggested that evidence does exist. You would similarly not be able to substantiate that germs cause disease if you didn't have or couldn't operate a microscope and actually studied the issue with such tools. But people with those tools and the knowledge to use them can. The science of knowing God belongs to the scientists who practice that science.

e: The same thing goes for the flying spaghetti monster, the magical space teapot, and the gnomes at the bottom of my garden.

M: But it really doesn't. One of the greatest piece of evidence for the existence of God is the fact that at all times and all places men will invent him. They don't universally invent the stuff you mentioned.

e: If you say that no evidence is required to believe something is true, then you have effectively removed rational thought from the equasion. While you are perfectly welcome to do so, I won't be joining you.

M: But I am saying that is exactly what you have done. You have decided that the light you can't see is off.

e: It doesn't upset me that people think that they are going to heaven and I to hell though, no. You are right about one thing however...those who deny reality do bother me very much. I thought long and hard about this though, and I can't say it's jealousy at all... it's pity and contempt. I simultaneously feel sad for them for being caught up in something that is so obviously a lie, and I hate them for their weakness of mind.

M: Well I have also thought long and hard about it too and I can tell you I learned almost nothing because you can't analysis with thoughts how you feel. Thought actually is the avoidance of feeling, the way we keep from feeling what we feel. Thought is rationalization. If you want to know what you are feeling and why, you have to actually feel. To feel is to discover your own self hate, to learn that pity and contempt and the hatred of weakness are all about having been put down as a child and made to feel the worst in the world, for being pitied and held in contempt, for being stupid. We react to others who remind us of how we feel about ourselves.

e: I tried for a long time to be religious, my family was Catholic and I briefly dated a girl who I really gave it a shot for. I can't turn off my brain though... sadly enough it just doesn't work that way.

M: How well I know. I could not believe to save my soul. For me without God there could be no meaning, only empty sadness and infinite pain. All the sorrow and misery felt by every soul amounted to cold vacuum in the great scheme of things. Everything is totally empty and without meaning. And the moment I realized there was no hope at all for me, no possibility I could ever escape the total blackness of this truth, the moment I let go and died I was free. When I disappeared I was left only with my heart and the love I had sought from God came pouring out of me. God is a tricky son of a bitch.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: HomerJS
Romney also said in todays speech...

"Freedom requires religeon."

I kinda thought that freedom we're trying to spread in the middle east is aimed at the secularists in government.

Looks like a conflict to me.

Only conflict is that one religion doesn't belong in the world. Others are moderate enough.