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Faith and Reason. My thoughts on God, science and the world

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Rob M. said:
So based on this, I can compare the hunchback, with say... the autobiography of Isaac Newton? Both have real places, historically accurate data, etc, right?

Do you see the fallacies in your argument?

You cannot compare known and admitted fiction to non-fiction, but you can when denograting the Bible? Why not anything else?

See how that works?
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The only people who think the Bible is non fiction are people who believe in the miracles performed in it. And they argue that since you cannot prove the miracles happened ONCE and have never been documented except by anecdotal evidence at the very best.

A rational person will concede that miracles only occur in works of fiction. And, yes, I would say the autobiography of Isaac Newton is comparable to the Hunchback of Notre-Dame because Isaac Newton never wrong an autobiography. Any book claiming as such is, in fact, a work of fiction.
 
smackababy said:
The only people who think the Bible is non fiction are people who believe in the miracles performed in it. And they argue that since you cannot prove the miracles happened ONCE and have never been documented except by anecdotal evidence at the very best.

A rational person will concede that miracles only occur in works of fiction. And, yes, I would say the autobiography of Isaac Newton is comparable to the Hunchback of Notre-Dame because Isaac Newton never wrong an autobiography. Any book claiming as such is, in fact, a work of fiction.
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Oops, I mean to say biography. My bad.

But you understood what I was saying. If all you need is a fictional comparison to falsify a nonfictional one, then we can use that across the board to discredit something we don't like.
 
eskimospy said:
They most certainly do not. Why do you continually try to shift the burden of proof?

If I say that pigs can fly and you tell me that's false, the burden of proof is not on you to disprove my claim. The bible makes countless extraordinary claims. If you believe those to be true it is entirely, 100% on you to prove them.

You still haven't answered my other question. Will you admit that your claim that the universe requires a creator is logically inconsistent with your claim that god does not require a creator?
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I don't understand what you're asking. No, it's not logically inconsistent because the universe not having a beginning doesn't have any bearing on whether or not God does -- you act is if you cannot have one without the other, or how one is somehow dependent on the other.

For instance, of God exists outside of the physical laws as therefore can exists without the physical universe, your question doesn't make much sense.
 
I'm really starting to wonder about you Rob. Non-fiction books are supported by sources and references. Again, the onus is on the author of the book to prove that his work is non-fiction, that's why citations and references are so important. Don't you remember writing a bibliography in school?
 
Rob M. said:
Oops, I mean to say biography. My bad.

But you understood what I was saying. If all you need is a fictional comparison to falsify a nonfictional one, then we can use that across the board to discredit something we don't like.
Click to expand...

Let me ask you this: is the Qur'an non-fiction? Or more so, is everything stated in it true?
 
Rob M. said:
I don't understand what you're asking. No, it's not logically inconsistent because the universe not having a beginning doesn't have any bearing on whether or not God does -- you act is if you cannot have one without the other, or how one is somehow dependent on the other.

For instance, of God exists outside of the physical laws as therefore can exists without the physical universe, your question doesn't make much sense.
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Rob, you claimed that the universe requires a creator because all things that are complex require a creator.
 
I don't understand what you're asking. No, it's not logically inconsistent because the universe not having a beginning doesn't have any bearing on whether or not God does -- you act is if you cannot have one without the other, or how one is somehow dependent on the other.
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yet moments ago if there was a beginning to the universe it was proof of a creator...

So heads you win, tails I lose.
 
JD50 said:
Rob, you claimed that the universe requires a creator because all things that are complex require a creator.
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I don't recall saying all things complex require a creator, I said we have proof that complex things can come from complex things, and these complex things can make simple things.
 
JD50 said:
I'm really starting to wonder about you Rob. Non-fiction books are supported by sources and references. Again, the onus is on the author of the book to prove that his work is non-fiction, that's why citations and references are so important. Don't you remember writing a bibliography in school?
Click to expand...

He was making a broad comparison of fictional books with the Bible. And FYI, there are reference bibles, as I own one, with references in them, and by the way, and I used researching tools, and encyclopedia's when I'm doing my own study.

That's how I check facts. I have a library at home.
 
As to the Koran question, Mohammed was real and born in the 6th century, that's basically all I can recall about it.
 
Rob M. said:
He was making a broad comparison of fictional books with the Bible. And FYI, there are reference bibles, as I own one, with references in them, and by the way, and I used researching tools, and encyclopedia's when I'm doing my own study.

That's how I check facts. I have a library at home.
Click to expand...

Please cite the reference material for the miracles Jesus performed. Here is an easy list: http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/a/Miracles-Of-Jesus.htm

And the references can't be from the book in question (the Bible).
 
Rob M. said:
As to the Koran question, Mohammed was real and born in the 6th century, that's basically all I can recall about it.
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Mohammed was told the direct words of God through the Angel Gabriel. He was the prophet that received the final revelation of God. Do you believe this?
 
Rob M. said:
What's been PROVEN false in the bible? List things proven false, please.
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I'm interested in what you think constitutes "proof" of the falsity of some allegation. Can you supply an example of something you believe was "proven false" in another piece of literature?

Separately, but on a related note, please consider the following scenario:

A person hands me a gaming die -- 6-sided, just like you might see in a casino. He tells me he just rolled a 6, ten times in a row with that die. That is to say, in 10 consecutive rolls, the result was a 6 every time.

I take the die, and I roll. 3. I roll again. 1. I roll again. 5. Again. 3. Again. 4.

I roll and roll and roll and roll, but for all the times I'd rolled it, I was unable to roll a 6. Every roll would come up with something besides a 6.

My question to you is this: how many rolls in a row that do not produce a 6 does it take to make you begin to believe that the person claiming to have rolled 6, ten times in a row, was not telling the truth? A hundred? A thousand? A million?
 
smackababy said:
Mohammed was told the direct words of God through the Angel Gabriel. He was the prophet that received the final revelation of God. Do you believe this?
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Firstly, no I don't believe it. That's not to say it didn't happen, but I just don't believe it. I will explain why:

Correct me if I am wrong, that incident in the cave is based on an interpretation that the Muslims point to from the Bible when Jesus said he would send a helper for his apostles "not many days" after his ascension to Heaven.

Obviously, this "not many days" ended up being over 600 years (if the prophecy applied to Mohammed) after that utterance by Christ, and that was well after his apostles died, so they would not see this promised helper. How could they see this helper in a few days of he was referring to a man born some six centuries or so after that?

So this is why I don't believe that.
 
Rob M. said:
Firstly, no I don't believe it. That's not to say it didn't happen, but I just don't believe it. I will explain why:

Correct me if I am wrong, that incident in the cave is based on an interpretation that the Muslims point to from the Bible when Jesus said he would send a helper for his apostles "not many days" after his ascension to Heaven.

Obviously, this "not many days" ended up being over 600 years (if the prophecy applied to Mohammed) after that utterance by Christ, and that was well after his apostles died, so they would not see this promised helper.

So this is why I don't believe that.
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How long did Jesus say it would be before he returned?
 
Rob M. said:
Firstly, no I don't believe it. That's not to say it didn't happen, but I just don't believe it. I will explain why:

Correct me if I am wrong, that incident in the cave is based on an interpretation that the Muslims point to from the Bible when Jesus said he would send a helper for his apostles "not many days" after his ascension to Heaven.

Obviously, this "not many days" ended up being over 600 years (if the prophecy applied to Mohammed) after that utterance by Christ, and that was well after his apostles died, so they would not see this promised helper. How could they see this helper in a few days of he was referring to a man born some six centuries or so after that?

So this is why I don't believe that.
Click to expand...

It claims it is the literal words of God (at least the Arabic version, I am sure some is lost in translation). So, you don't believe those words of God, but you believe those in your Bible? Oh how about the Book of Mormon? That is also the word of God. Do you not believe his words there either?

Also, you cleverly are trying to avoid the real question. Is the Qur'an fiction? Is the Book of Mormon fiction? Because if either aren't, the words of God were spoken.
 
smackababy said:
It claims it is the literal words of God (at least the Arabic version, I am sure some is lost in translation). So, you don't believe those words of God, but you believe those in your Bible? Oh how about the Book of Mormon? That is also the word of God. Do you not believe his words there either?

Also, you cleverly are trying to avoid the real question. Is the Qur'an fiction? Is the Book of Mormon fiction? Because if either aren't, the words of God were spoken.
Click to expand...

This is the oldest, and poorly executed, trick in the book:

Say the Koran is false, "how do you know?" Say the Mormon one is false, "how do you know?" Have you read them?

Draw your own conclusions. And if two faiths contradict, but claim to have the words of the same God, then someone's lying. That's why Jesus said "you will notice them by their fruits", or in other words, their actions.

Anyone can claim to have the word of God, so that's not evidence -- it's lip service. Just watch them, and you'll clearly know.
 
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Cerpin Taxt said:
Why are you so reluctant to answer my question? Do you not know? Here, I thought you had read the Bible... guess not.
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Obvious bait and switch trap question is obvious.

If I say "I don't know", then you'll counter with a "then how can you know his reference to how many days weren't 600 or so years?"

So I'll respectfully decline to answer the question, because you're not asking in sincerity.
 
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