Fair Use of news stories

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
It is all too common in this forum for entire news stories to be posted. Sometimes with a URL to the original article, sometimes without. People seem to think that this falls under the "fair use" provision of the copyright laws. It really doesn't when the entire article is posted.

These are almost certainly copyright vioations. It is also taking advertising revenue from the different news organizations.

Better form to to quote one paragraph (typically the lead paragraph) and providing the link to the main article.

If you disagree, please tell me why posting the entire, copyrighted story (often including the copyright notice) is OK.

Michael
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
No, I am not a mod, nor would I want to be (I did my time modding when I was much younger on BBSes and early internet communities).

Why do I have to be a mod to point out when the law is being broken?

Michael
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
If I read a newspaper article and repeat it verbatim in a public discussion am I infringing on copyright laws?

Anyone who copies and pastes a newspaper article so people can read and discuss it is excercising their right to free speech. They aren't using the piece for financial gain and we aren't causing any damage to the news organization or the writer. I would think a news organization would want their work disseminated broadly. If people like what they read they just might pick up a copy of the newspaper or magazine.

One other point. The articles pasted are free for the asking on the internet at the news sites they're copied from. News organizations making them available without charge would seem to change the parameters.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
DealMonkey - In my time when I modded in the past, I was given guidelines on fair use of news stories. These were prepared by the company lawyer. The guidelines basically said that since the forums were moderated, we had to make sure that entire news stories were not routinely copied.

Anandtech is a commerical site. The forums are modded. Anandtech makes money from hits. By quoting the entire article here, you're taking away the advertising revnue from the people who created and/or paid for the creation of the news article.

Also, it is the correct thing to do to not steal from other sites. There's nothing wrong with a URL to the original.

Michael

from Fair Use

"Sec. 107. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use



Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1)

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2)

the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3)

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4)

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors"

Quoting the entire story almost for sure violates #3.

 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Actually, I remember hearing some contraversy about directly linking before. Something to the effect of, someone wanted to ban direct linking, as it would take away ad revenue gained by having to click through the entire site. (Ex: linking to a news story instead of having to go to the front page of the website to find it). Does anyone else remember this?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
I just want to know how Michael is a Senior Member with 3000 posts.

Dunno. Must have done it without using cut and paste.
 

Vadatajs

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2001
3,475
0
0
Direct linking is ok imho. Posting the whole article isn't, unless it is accompanied by a link and can be accessed for free (read: not NY times, but washington post is ok).

Screw ad revenue.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
I just want to know how Michael is a Senior Member with 3000 posts.
Dunno. Must have done it without using cut and paste.
I think he was demoted for impersonating a copyright attorney in his posts. Also, for saying the word "horseshit" a lot. I hear the mods really hate that ;)
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Interesting you posted about this Michael as I am one of those that you are targeting.

It seems that everything that is "printed" whether it be in actual paper print or other means especially via online or even new ink in a printer cartridge is being targeted as "illegal". Everything is being targeted as "illegal" by these certain people. What is this, how do you describe what these people are doing? They are managing to completely shred the very fabric that held the United States together since 1776. Why are they doing this?

People used to worry about plagiarism and made sure they put footnotes at the bottom. I believe the Non-Commercial use of these News stories for discussion in their entirity with a link back to the source is both a means for discussion under protected free speech and as a protection against being accusued of plagiarism. I know that if I was ever hired to write articles that not only would I not mind that my articles are "broadcast" with the appropriate credits but I'm sure the Employer wouldn't mind the extra free distribution either. Now everyone has to worry that they have broken some cardinal DMCA or Copyright rules. Might as well shut down all Newspapers, Media and the Internet, especially in the United States, dasm.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
0
Michael has framed the debate marvelously, to argue about its legality. But the whole legality issue is moot when the simple fact of the matter is that the vast vast vast majority of us don't give a flying fvck that we're breaking the law or depriving the news sites with whatever revenue they might generate.

Simply stated, we do it because we don't care that we're breaking a law, and we won't get caught for it (unless we're ratted out).
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
I guess I'm probably violating the DMCA when I use an ad/popup blocker on sites too, huh? (tool for the sole purpose of modifying a copyrighted/protected work)

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Michael
It is all too common in this forum for entire news stories to be posted. Sometimes with a URL to the original article, sometimes without. People seem to think that this falls under the "fair use" provision of the copyright laws. It really doesn't when the entire article is posted.

These are almost certainly copyright vioations. It is also taking advertising revenue from the different news organizations.

Better form to to quote one paragraph (typically the lead paragraph) and providing the link to the main article.

If you disagree, please tell me why posting the entire, copyrighted story (often including the copyright notice) is OK.

Michael

I would have to side with Michael on this. Several other political chat forums have been forced to stop entire postings of entire articles.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
I have no idea about the DMCA. This is actually the older copyright law on "fair use". I know that many other forums where I post have this as a rule and the mods pull the whole post if you dump in an entire article.

Michael
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Michael
It is all too common in this forum for entire news stories to be posted. Sometimes with a URL to the original article, sometimes without. People seem to think that this falls under the "fair use" provision of the copyright laws. It really doesn't when the entire article is posted.

These are almost certainly copyright vioations. It is also taking advertising revenue from the different news organizations.

Better form to to quote one paragraph (typically the lead paragraph) and providing the link to the main article.

If you disagree, please tell me why posting the entire, copyrighted story (often including the copyright notice) is OK.

Michael
I would have to side with Michael on this. Several other political chat forums have been forced to stop entire postings of entire articles.
Yep. Limited quoting is generally considered fair use; quoting entire articles is generally not. Unless the site says one can freely copy and redistribute their content, quoting whole articles is likely a copyright violation.

Granted most people don't care, but . . .
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Michael
It is all too common in this forum for entire news stories to be posted. Sometimes with a URL to the original article, sometimes without. People seem to think that this falls under the "fair use" provision of the copyright laws. It really doesn't when the entire article is posted.

These are almost certainly copyright vioations. It is also taking advertising revenue from the different news organizations.

Better form to to quote one paragraph (typically the lead paragraph) and providing the link to the main article.

If you disagree, please tell me why posting the entire, copyrighted story (often including the copyright notice) is OK.

Michael

I would have to side with Michael on this. Several other political chat forums have been forced to stop entire postings of entire articles.
Links please

 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
www.edmunds.com doesn't even allow the posting of press releases in their forums.

This is what their membership agreement says:

"Intellectual Property Rights of Third Parties
You may not submit Postings, including photos or images, that infringe in any manner on the copyright, trademark or intellectual property rights of any person or other entity. You may insert hyperlinks in your Postings for members to access copyrighted material for informational purposes -- but, except for quotes of reasonable length, you may not post such materials in Town Hall itself. You may not use Town Hall to distribute unauthorized copies of copyrighted material, including photos, artwork text, recordings, designs or computer programs."

Michael
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: Michael
I have no idea about the DMCA. This is actually the older copyright law on "fair use". I know that many other forums where I post have this as a rule and the mods pull the whole post if you dump in an entire article.

Michael
That's what the mods are for; moderation. If you feel you can do a better job than they can, I'm sure you can get in contact with them about that. And if you've got modereation suggestions, lambasting every poster who violates your rules probably isn't the best way to get them noticed.

I bet you were the tattletale in 2nd grade too, right?
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
I bet you were the tattletale in 2nd grade too, right?
By the same logic, you must have been a whiny bitch in the 2nd grade too...........

Evidently to the ethically impaired crowd, it doesn't matter that Michael is absolutely correct.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Michael
It is all too common in this forum for entire news stories to be posted. Sometimes with a URL to the original article, sometimes without. People seem to think that this falls under the "fair use" provision of the copyright laws. It really doesn't when the entire article is posted.

These are almost certainly copyright vioations. It is also taking advertising revenue from the different news organizations.

Better form to to quote one paragraph (typically the lead paragraph) and providing the link to the main article.

If you disagree, please tell me why posting the entire, copyrighted story (often including the copyright notice) is OK.

Michael

I would have to side with Michael on this. Several other political chat forums have been forced to stop entire postings of entire articles.
Links please
www.freerepublic.com has been forced by a couple of publisher to keep its users from posting full articles. I am fairly certain www.democraticunderground.com has had similar problems as they maintain a similar rules for posting.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
"for members to access copyrighted material for informational purposes -- but, except for quotes of reasonable length, you may not post such materials in Town Hall itself."

Doesn't sound much of a "Town hall" that I would want to visit. What Country and time is that site stuck in?

Here is another excerpt from the Fair Use Law that wasn't included above for some reason.

"Fair use allows consumers to make a copy of part or all of a copyrighted work, even where the copyright holder has not given permission or objects to your use of the work."

"Courts have previously found that a use was fair where the use of the copyrighted work was socially beneficial. In particular, U.S. courts have recognized the following fair uses: criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, research and parodies."

The "Fair Use" of articles here has been for criticism, comment, research, news reporting, parodies and teaching. Who knows someone may have used the Forum to help get a scholarship too.

I hope this puts that to bed.

I've also been speaking with a well known Journalist.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
dmcowen674 - This forum doesn't meet any of the list. It is not a educational institution. There is no "social benefit" that is derived that could not just as easily be done via an excerpt and link. For the most part, this is not a parody website. Most of that area of fair use is to allow for short excerpts to be quotes for review and critisism.

I know that all it would take is one complaint to the legal department of the NY Times and CNN and Anand would receive a cease and desist letter from their legal department.

konichiwa - I made one post in a thread and then noticed another copy of the same article in another thread. I posted in that one and sent a PM to the mods. They can't decide site direction like that so they probably will contact Anand. Anand has always run a "clean" BBS with language filters and no warez, no coupon codes, etc. I really doubt that he supports breaking the law here.

I also started this thread to discuss it instead of "policing" every thread which isn't my responsibility as I'm not a mod nor an employee of Anandtech.

And, no, I wasn't a tattletale in 2nd grade.

Michael
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
69,422
4,804
126
Michael is making a valid point that I think should be followed here. As long as a working clickable link is provided, those interested will still read the article, so I don't see what the big deal with going after Michael is for.

Wait for him to give an opinion on one of these subjects, then you'll have reason to go after him! ;) :D
 

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