Fair Tax

[GuitarDaddy]

What a name "Fair Tax" :biggrin:

There is nothing fair about the fair tax, it's a totally regressive tax designed by the rich for the rich.

 

[QuantumPion]

So a bum making and spending no money gets a free rebate check every month to leech off of. Great.

That's assuming said bum buys no food, clothes, shelter, booze, etc, than yes you would be correct.

In the real world, even the most frugal people have to buy food, clothes, etc. and pay tax on them. On average, the prebate cancels out the sales tax for these necessities. But since it is an average, some people will have a net income out of it.

I take it by your attitude that you are against all forms of government welfare and entitlements? E.g. food stamps, shelters, soup kitchens, medicaid, social security, etc etc?

 

[QuantumPion]

What a name "Fair Tax" :biggrin:

There is nothing fair about the fair tax, it's a totally regressive tax designed by the rich for the rich.

Yup, because Warren Buffet's secretary paying more income tax than Warren Buffet himself is totally fair as it is now. Cool story bro.

 

[Hacp]

The reason why the prebate deal came to be is because in order for the fair tax to be revenue neutral, it would have to be something like 25%. That is a very high sales tax for people on fixed incomes and would be burdensome. If you can think of a better way to have a fixed rate sales tax that only applies after you've paid an $x threshold I'd love to hear it.

And a simple way to reduce the tax burden on poorer people would be to reduce government spending, thus having a lower tax rate.

 

[Hacp]

That's assuming said bum buys no food, clothes, shelter, booze, etc, than yes you would be correct.

In the real world, even the most frugal people have to buy food, clothes, etc. and pay tax on them. On average, the prebate cancels out the sales tax for these necessities. But since it is an average, some people will have a net income out of it.

I take it by your attitude that you are against all forms of government welfare and entitlements? E.g. food stamps, shelters, soup kitchens, medicaid, social security, etc etc?

Soupu kitchens, shelter is fine as long as it isn't government funded.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There is no such thing as a fair tax because someone is going to get screwed. It's a matter of who and how much.

 

[Brainonska511]

I still don't think you get it.

He never does.

You are COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY doing away with the IRS and income taxes.

How would you do away with the IRS? You'll still need an agency to collect and count the money. An agency to enforce the law when places try to cheat what they owe. If only there was some sort of revenue service that was internal to the government.....

 

[Jhhnn]

Yup, because Warren Buffet's secretary paying more income tax than Warren Buffet himself is totally fair as it is now. Cool story bro.

Nobody has offered that strawman as being fair or reasonable.

So, uhh, what sort of spending would be taxed? Stocks, bonds, real estate? That's where big earners spend the majority of their money...

Purchases made outside the US, like buying my private jet in Bermuda? My beach house in the Bahamas? Do I pay taxes on the clothes I have custom tailored in London? What if I just sell my Aspen ski lodge to one of my corporate entities, call it a business expense, even though only my cronies and I are the only ones who will ever use it... any tax on that?

Like Guitar Daddy says, it's advocated for the rich, by the rich in an effort to shift the tax burden even further down the scale...

Hacp must think he's rich, or will be some day... Trust Fund?

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Yup, because Warren Buffet's secretary paying more income tax than Warren Buffet himself is totally fair as it is now. Cool story bro.

you're seriously misquoting buffet, and under a fair tax she might actually pay more tax than Buffet, Buffet lives like a pauper and spends nothing.

And if you really believe that little tale of paying less tax than his secretary you are very very gulible. He doesn't even claim that, he claims he pays a lower average tax rate of 17.7% than his secretary because all of his income is structured as long term dividends. But I can assure you even if this is true which I don't doubt his tax for one year @ 17.7% is more than she will make in her lifetime.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yup, and under a fair tax she would still pay more tax than Buffet, Buffet lives like a pauper and spends nothing.

And if you really believe his little tale of paying less tax than his secretary you are very very gulible.

Just for the record, Buffet offered that he paid a lower *total tax rate* than his receptionist, which is entirely believable.

Under a so-called "Fair Tax" proposal, he'd probably pay even less.

 

[Hacp]

Yup, and under a fair tax she would still pay more tax than Buffet, Buffet lives like a pauper and spends nothing.

And if you really believe his little tale of paying less tax than his secretary you are very very gulible.

The government has probably collected more taxes from that man than he's ever spent in his life.

 

[Deudalus]

Edit: You won't get rid of the IRS either, a VAT requires an awful lot of work by the IRS etc

Fern

Explain please.

We already have the system in place to add sales tax to everything we buy. We simply raise the sales tax to a set amount and eliminate the IRS entirely.

 

[Fern]

Explain please.

We already have the system in place to add sales tax to everything we buy. We simply raise the sales tax to a set amount and eliminate the IRS entirely.

I'm a tax CPA, I worked in Price Waterhouse's (now PriceWaterhouse Coopers) Euro HQ in Paris, France. The VAT tax division was the largest in the firm. VAT is far more complicated than many people realize. While YOU might not have to do anything under a VAT only system, EVERY business will. Now, under sales tax, it's only those who do retail sales.

Sales tax is currently a state issue, and they have an awful lot of sales tax auditors. And they have to process an awful lot of monthly sales tax forms, and do an awful lot of monthly collections.

In any case, common sense should suggest that any system, tax or otherwise, generating billions of $'s will require a lot of administration.

Fern

 

[bobsmith1492]

Two words:

Black market

 

[Zorkorist]

Tax Reform? Are you kidding me?

We just passed Health "Reform," where various beaurocratic agencies steal your money and tell you which Doctor you will see; when you will bend over; and when you will cough.

Tax Reform?

-John

 

[Modelworks]

The government spends more than it brings in , until you solve that there can be no fair tax. If everyone only paid for what they consume the debt would increase even faster than it is now.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's just sickening that good ideas like fair tax, flat tax, are not even in play today.

As Shakespeare said, "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

-John

 

[Deudalus]

I'm a tax CPA, I worked in Price Waterhouse's (now PriceWaterhouse Coopers) Euro HQ in Paris, France. The VAT tax division was the largest in the firm. VAT is far more complicated than many people realize. While YOU might not have to do anything under a VAT only system, EVERY business will. Now, under sales tax, it's only those who do retail sales.

Sales tax is currently a state issue, and they have an awful lot of sales tax auditors. And they have to process an awful lot of monthly sales tax forms, and do an awful lot of monthly collections.

In any case, common sense should suggest that any system, tax or otherwise, generating billions of $'s will require a lot of administration.

Fern

Comparatively though Fern it can't be that bad.

Imagine millions upon millions of Americans filing taxes. Some of those people have CPA's to do them. Some of them do them themselves.

Can we write off this? Can we write off that? The IRS says we can do this and can't do that. Let's have their lawyers argue it out with our CPA and our lawyers.

Either way, many people will spend hours and hours filing their taxes.

They come up with one figure, the IRS comes up with another figure. You have a ton of processing work for people paying quarterly, annually.

Finding out who owes how much penalty for paying X dollars late. Sending people to people's houses that owe back taxes like the 4 cents guy. Then we have tax lawyers, tax litigation, tax arbitration hearings.


While no doubt businesses are going to have paper work and other red tape to deal with, they are already dealing with income tax red tape so they would be trading in one for another.


While there wouldn't be ZERO red tape with a Fair Tax. You have to admit it would be DRASTICALLY simpler than our current tax code and DRASTICALLY cheaper to monitor.

 

[Deudalus]

The government spends more than it brings in , until you solve that there can be no fair tax. If everyone only paid for what they consume the debt would increase even faster than it is now.

Not at all.

In fact the opposite is true. Do some research.

 

[Zorkorist]

Comparatively though Fern it can't be that bad.

Imagine millions upon millions of Americans filing taxes. Some of those people have CPA's to do them. Some of them do them themselves.

Can we write off this? Can we write off that? The IRS says we can do this and can't do that. Let's have their lawyers argue it out with our CPA and our lawyers.

Either way, many people will spend hours and hours filing their taxes.

They come up with one figure, the IRS comes up with another figure. You have a ton of processing work for people paying quarterly, annually.

Finding out who owes how much penalty for paying X dollars late. Sending people to people's houses that owe back taxes like the 4 cents guy. Then we have tax lawyers, tax litigation, tax arbitration hearings.


While no doubt businesses are going to have paper work and other red tape to deal with, they are already dealing with income tax red tape so they would be trading in one for another.


While there wouldn't be ZERO red tape with a Fair Tax. You have to admit it would be DRASTICALLY simpler than our current tax code and DRASTICALLY cheaper to monitor.

I'm pretty sure VAT is not just a straight foward fair-tax like you have advocated Dadelous.

Crazy complex, and everthing I have heard is stay away.

But VAT is not what you are advocating.

-John

 

[Deudalus]

I'm pretty sure VAT is not just a straight foward fair-tax like you have advocated Dadelous.

Crazy complex, and everthing I have heard is stay away.

But VAT is not what you are advocating.

-John

I'm advocating a flat sales tax for everything outside of necessities that we buy.

That means no more income tax.

The flat sales tax would wind up being around 18% with 8% going to the state and 10% going to the feds.

That means if I buy a 100,000 car I would pay 18,000 in taxes on it.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not at all.

In fact the opposite is true. Do some research.

It's your contention, your burden of proof, not vice-versa, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

Saying "Do some research" is a total dodge, and anybody with a lick of sense can see that.

What's a revenue-neutral "Fair Tax" rate? What rate would balance the budget?

 

[Modelworks]

Not at all.

In fact the opposite is true. Do some research.

Do you really think that there are enough taxes off what people consume to pay for schools, police, jails, public programs, military ?

You are dreaming.

 

[Deudalus]

Do you really think that there are enough taxes off what people consume to pay for schools, police, jails, public programs, military ?

You are dreaming.

Absolutely.

Wanna know why?

Mark Cuban buys a 50 million dollar plane for his Mavs team? That's a business expense write it off.

People write off cars, Saints season tickets, Hornet season tickets, memberships to TPC golf course, trips to here, trips to there, gasoline, food, going out to eat dinners with "clients", and tons of other crap.

All of that literally is subtracted from their taxes.

You have NO IDEA how much shit wealthy people write off.

No clue.

 

[Zorkorist]

I'm advocating a flat sales tax for everything outside of necessities that we buy.

That means no more income tax.

The flat sales tax would wind up being around 18% with 8% going to the state and 10% going to the feds.

That means if I buy a 100,000 car I would pay 18,000 in taxes on it.

Yes, and I like it.

It's just ridiculous to pursue fair taxes, when the Government just took over Health care.

The same people that bring you unfair taxes, will now bring you unfair healthcare.

-John