Facility 1391: Israel's secret prison

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
That is right. The Presence is all knowing because he served with the IDF, shooting children throwing rocks at his depleted uranium shielded, American donated tank. Don't bother arguing with him, you couldn't possibly have any clue by watching the Israel hating, pro-Arab American news channels.

I never claimed to be all-knowing, but I do have a prespective that you can't possibly have unless you lived and served there too. What you know about IDF tactics you get from the media, so you assume that soldiers shoot at rock throwers. What a crock. I went through IDF training, where the preservation of innocent life is stressed above everything else. I myself have seen cases where the media severely twists events to reflect their political point of view. Here's the media for you. Unfortunately, people buy into it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Matrices]

The Presence: The IDF has a history. Maybe you went through the idealistic training course and ended there. But here it is in the words of your Israeli historians:

"The time has come to face the ocean of lies in which we were brought up. In almost every conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes. For many Israelis it was easier to find
consolation in the lie, that the Arabs left the country orders from their leaders. This is an absolute fabrication. The fundamental cause of their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this fear was not at all imaginary. From almost each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab villages between May and July 1948 - when clashes with villagers were the fiercest - a smell of massacre emanates. Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were committed after the battle, sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and while the villages are ?cleansed?.


Source: Israeli military historian Aryeh Yitzakhi, Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael Studies at Bar Ilan University (Tel Aviv) and Senior Lecturer in Military History in Israeli Defence Force (IDF)


Also, if you read Israeli reporter Amira Hass, from the account of the atrocities your friends committed in Jenin April 2002, you will see that her eye-witness reporting revealed that IDF soldiers defecated on photocopiers, destroyed all NGO, civil-society data - computers, disks, projectors - literally smashing the foundations of the Palestinian state, and looted widely.

You must also know as I said of the Refuseniks, and also of the IAF pilots who refuse to carry out Israeli murder. The equation is simple: you are occupying another people. This is not the 19th century where you can mow natives down under the pretext of racial supremacy or White Man's burden or "redeeming" the land for the Jews. Hitler wanted to "redeem" the land for the Aryans (Lebensbraum).

You must understand that as long as you keep stealing and plundering Palestinian land and robbing them of national aspirations, they will resist. They will resist just as you resisted Christian Europe for so many centuries.

In the first Intifada your forces killed more than 300 Palestinian youth who were only throwing stones. How many casualties did you endure - you armed, armored, occupying soldiers? A few dozen? Look up the statistics from Associated Press or Israeli human rights group B'T-Selem (www.btselem.org). It was a massacre. Look up also the statistics for the first two months of the second Intifada. More mowing down of children. Of course when you commit such brutalities you must be prepared for the inevitable revenge. Suicide bombings became a regularity only into the 1990s - after decades of occupation and abuse from your soldiers.

Here is an example of the great "morality" of your army, printed (in excerpt form) in the popular Israeli tabloid Yediot Arhonot:

"What is 'opening a track'? You erase buildings. On both sides. There is no other choice, because the tractor was much wider than their alleys. But I am not looking for excuses or anything. You must 'shave' them. I didn't give a damn about demolishing their houses, because it saved the lives of our soldiers. I worked where our soldiers were slaughtered. They didn't tell all the truth about what happened. they drilled holes in the walls, holes for gun barrels. Anyone who escaped the charges, was shot through these holes.

"I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9, just so that our soldiers won't expose themselves to danger. That's what I told them. I was afraid for our soldiers. You could see them sleeping together, 40 soldiers in a house, all crowded. My heart went out for them. This is why I didn't give a damn about demolishing all the houses I've demolished - and I have demolished plenty. By the end, I built the 'Teddy' football stadium there.

"Difficult? No way. You must be kidding. I wanted to destroy everything. I begged the officers, over the radio, to let me knock it all down; from top to bottom. To level everything. It's not as if I wanted to kill. Just the houses. We didn't harm those who came out of the houses we had started to demolish, waving white flags. We screwed just those who wanted to fight.

"No one refused an order to knock down a house. No such thing. When I was told to bring down a house, I took the opportunity to bring down some more houses; not because I wanted to - but because when you are asked to demolish a house, some other houses usually obscure it, so there is no other way. I would have to do it even if I didn't want to. They just stood in the way. If I had to erase a house, come hell or high water - I would do it. And believe me, we demolished too little. The whole camp was littered with detonation charges. What actually saved the lives of the Palestinians themselves, because if they had returned to their homes, they would blow up.

"For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. Others may have restrained themselves, or so they say. Who are they kidding? Anyone who was there, and saw our soldiers in the houses, would understand they were in a death trap. I thought about saving them. I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders. ..."

The time has come to stop cowering behind lies and denials and figleafs. If you served in a criminal army for a criminal nation, that does not make either less criminal, it makes you part of a crime.

 

[0roo0roo]

you spend your time calling people names, and israelis terrorists. if the israelis are terrorists, then there are no words to describe in inhumanity of the palinians strategy of blood.

you are indeed blind.



The time has come to stop cowering behind lies and denials and figleafs. you peddle the lies and justify support for a criminal regiem that commits crimes against humanity for its political strategy., that you only indirectly support this terror does not make either less criminal, it makes you part of the crime of supporting terror. it is people like you that marginalize any moderate voices of reason with your implicit support for actions of extremists.

\For many Israelis it was easier to find
consolation in the lie, that the Arabs left the country orders from their leaders. This is an absolute fabrication.

arab countries own newspapers are against you.

ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine
Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs
did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their
homes,,belongings and everything they possessed."

ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory,
secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those
refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states
in
opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon
this policy unanimously..."

ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab
League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948,
Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples
that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple
as
a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of
Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay
temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states."

IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official
journal ofthe Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO
spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the
Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned
them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw
them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to
live."

ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee,
Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the
flight
and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are
responsible,
because of the dissemination of rumours exaggerating Jewish crimes
and
describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they
instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine
until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy."

ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6,
1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.'
So we got out, but they did not get in."

THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab
states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes
temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion
armies."

ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness
account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that
the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements
made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in
Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who
remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as
renegades."

THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs,
published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the
Arab failure in 1948: "... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab
governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave
for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a
million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to
leave their land."

"FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat
reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against
the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of theEgyptians and
other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they
will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they
declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes."
-
British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991

 

[xyyz]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
well but thats the not the way it happened. its not as if a hoard of israelis got off boats and kicked people out of houses. at the time of the UN partition most of the houses and land were bought from palestinians. then the palestinians went to war over and over and lost, some fleeing their homes.

and its not true that the only choice they have is terrorism against civilians. that is a false dilema. did dr king or ghandi resort to terrorism?

its not as if you see germans bombing civilians for the territory carved out of germany as compensation after they lost the war.

if you don't mind, can you please post some material from an unbiased source giving proof to your remark about the land being bought. this is the first time that anyone's stated it like this.

also, was it the palestinans themselves who went to war, i've always read it was the neighboring arab countries.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you spend your time calling people names, and israelis terrorists. if the israelis are terrorists, then there are no words to describe in inhumanity of the palinians strategy of blood.

you are indeed blind.



The time has come to stop cowering behind lies and denials and figleafs. you peddle the lies and justify support for a criminal regiem that commits crimes against humanity for its political strategy., that you only indirectly support this terror does not make either less criminal, it makes you part of the crime of supporting terror. it is people like you that marginalize any moderate voices of reason with your implicit support for actions of extremists.

No, it is people like YOU that marginalize any moderate voices of reason with your implicit support for actions of extremists. The only reason why terrorism exists in that part of the world is because of extremists in Israel who humiliate, murder innocent people and steal their land. Luckily more and more people in Israel realize it, take a look at today's MSNBC article on how 4 former Shin Bet (Israel's domestic intelligence service) directors speak out against Sharon's oppressive policies. Hopefully, Zionist zealots like you will soon become a minority in Israel, and only then there will be peace.

 

[ThePresence]

Sharon and Arafat both have to go, there is no longer any chance of peace with any of them in power. Neither side will ever have any confidence in the other with those two still in power. However, whomever the Israeli public elects next, he cannot cave in to terrorism. If Israel gives one inch because of terrorism, it legitimizes terrorism. Terrorism becaomes a legitmate way to achieve a political end. No country can allow that to happen, especially Israel.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you spend your time calling people names, and israelis terrorists. if the israelis are terrorists, then there are no words to describe in inhumanity of the palinians strategy of blood.

you are indeed blind.



The time has come to stop cowering behind lies and denials and figleafs. you peddle the lies and justify support for a criminal regiem that commits crimes against humanity for its political strategy., that you only indirectly support this terror does not make either less criminal, it makes you part of the crime of supporting terror. it is people like you that marginalize any moderate voices of reason with your implicit support for actions of extremists.

No, it is people like YOU that marginalize any moderate voices of reason with your implicit support for actions of extremists. The only reason why terrorism exists in that part of the world is because of extremists in Israel who humiliate, murder innocent people and steal their land. Luckily more and more people in Israel realize it, take a look at today's MSNBC article on how 4 former Shin Bet (Israel's domestic intelligence service) directors speak out against Sharon's oppressive policies. Hopefully, Zionist zealots like you will soon become a minority in Israel, and only then there will be peace.

bullsh*t, the reason theres terrorism in that part of the world is because it has been encouraged for decades. the world has negotiated, released, coddled terrorists pretending that conceeding to demands of terrorism doesn't encourage more. i'm sure the US faced the world trade towers being bombed, then having planes flown into them all because of our oppressive policies stealing land right? bullsh*t. there are people with an axe to grind, legitimizing their absurd demands only makes them want more. its people like you who are blind to any distinctions. genocide would be no different then war by your distorted logic of moral equivalence.

if you don't mind, can you please post some material from an unbiased source giving proof to your remark about the land being bought. this is the first time that anyone's stated it like this.

perhaps you should look it up and try to prove me wrong. do you think there always was an idf? and magical jews starting moving in and used magic to take the land from the majority? that there weren't jews there in the first place? both jews and palestinians mostly immigrated into the area. more palestinians since the british eventually blocked jews and encouraged arab immigration.

 

[Matrices]

BrooBroo commits another major boo-boo in his facts. I advise all to read carefully. The ethnic composition of Israel as of 1948 was white European settlers who had nothing to do with the Middle East or Palestine. They were foreigners just as much as Brits colonizing S. Africa and Rhodesia were foreigners.

The Palestinians and Jews did not simply "move in" at the same time, that is ridiculous. You are confusing the issue - there was a small proportion of Jews native to Palestine living there alongside the Arabs for centuries. Zionism did not originate from them. Zionism was a European movement, started by European Jews, in response to European anti-Semitism. European Jews settled Palestine starting around 1880, and their racist plan demanded expulsion of the Arabs on the ultimate level. At first, they would buy Arab land from absentee landlords, but kick out the Arab tenants, and hire only Jewish labor.

Israeli historian Benny Morris explains:

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

The problem is that, as you can see reading Israeli historian Benny Morris, by 1947 the Jewish settlers only legally had purchased 7% of Palestine. As he further notes the indigenous population of Arabs had lived and worked that land for centuries; an ethnic mix of pre-Canaanites, since 6th century AD, and the native Jews there had nothing to do with Zionism. In fact, before the Nazi Holocaust, the number of Jews who willingly moved to Palestine was pathetically low - the Jews thought Zionism was a ridiculous ideology, and when they could flee, they fled to Western Europe and the US.

Obviously after WWII ended the claim for a Jewish homeland gained more currency. Since Zionism had been hawking its aspiration to the anti-Semites themselves - at times allying with Britain, Russia, and even Nazi Germany, it showed its true colors as, ironically, another European racist outfit. Through aggressive lobbying they had the US armtwist other members of the UN to create a partitioned Palestine. The travesty is that the Jewish settlers were alloted 55%--more than half--of historical Palestine, even though they legally owned only 7%, were foreigners, and represented only 33% of the population. The Palestinian people were not even represented in this farcical event.

After the Partition Plan was announced, Jewish militia (Nov. 1947) began terrorizing and kicking Arabs out of the Jewish side of the partition. The whole myth about the Arabs "starting" the war is absurd for several reasons: first, the creation of Israel itself was made possible by destroying and dispossessing the Arabs - if I "create" my home by robbing you of yours, and you fight back for it, who is "attacking" in this scenario? Second, the Arab armies did not intervene - because the British colonizers were still in control of them - until after Israeli formally declared independence in May 15, 1948. Between then and last November the Zionists went around terrorizing and throwing out the Arabs. For instance, the greatest massacre of the war, committed by Zionists at Deir Yassin where 254 Palestinians were murdered and raped, occured in April - a month before Israel declared itself offcially.

Another historian elucidates:

"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."

And third, Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, consulting declassified Israeli archives, has pointed out that the so-called hordes of Arab armies never materialized - they were divided, pitted against each other, opportunistic, and never made any serious commitment to defend Palestine. Public rhetoric was only for domestic consumption. In truth, Israeli forces outgunned and outnumbered the combined Arab armies, and the idea of Arab hordes is a racist myth that has been debunked.

 

[Matrices]

" If Israel gives one inch because of terrorism, it legitimizes terrorism. Terrorism becaomes a legitmate way to achieve a political end. No country can allow that to happen, especially Israel."

The problem with this philosophy is that it is a failure, morally and logically.

Obviously, countries can be established by terrorism - Israel is a shining example of that fact. The basis for its land is mass expulsion, mass murder, and mass destruction of Palestinians. That is an incontrovertible historical fact confirmed by all of the Israeli historians I have been citing here who have seen Israel's declassified archives. Who are those millions of Palestinians in refugee camps you have locked up, tortured, or suffocated with settlements and checkpoints? The original inhabitants of the land you stole.

Don't take my word for it - ask your war hero, Moshe Dayan:

"We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. .." - Source: Avi Shlaim, Iron Wall

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." - Source: Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969

So the basis of Israel is terrorism.

Your philosophy is the mindless and self-defeated philosophy of all colonizers - where force does not work, apply more force. Crush, kill, destroy - but never acknowledge the root causes.

The macho talk about not yielding an inch to terrorism is meaningless--all those "inches" which you have stolen from Palestinians you have stolen precisely through terrorism. Moreover, this is an ongoing atrocity, as every day more illegal settlements and racist Jewish-only roads are built and water is sucked out of Palestinian hands.

A people fighting for their survival against tanks and bulldozers are not terrorists. Just because Israelis like to maintain the delusion that they are "victims" because people of their ethnicity were killed in another continent half a century ago does not change reality: you are Goliath, the Palestinians are David.

Put it this way: what have you gained by not granting the Palestinians their legitimate rights to a national home - on 1/5 of the land you stole from them? Suicide bombings and intensified violence. Israel is falling apart from the occupation, as several Jewish publications have been noting as of late (The Forward, Tikkun, Haaretz).

The pro-Israeli camp's rank hypocrisy is always exposed by quotes from their own leaders. Here is David Ben-Gurion, complaining about British restriction against Zionism only increases Zionist terrorism against British facilities:

"Two hundred and fifty thousand Jews of Tel Aviv and suburbs, core of country's social and industrial life, and thirty thousands of Jews in Jerusalem, mostly working-class quarters, isolated from all normal contact with outside world, facing complete breakdown of mechanism civilized life apart from food supplies and skeleton medical service. Industry crippled, trade paralyzed, unemployment threatening to become catastrophic. Industrial raw materials cannot enter, goods manufactured with available stock cannot be marketed outside. Workers cut off from places of work, children from schools. These restrictions have not affected terrorists nor stopped their outrages but instead have increased resentment of hard-hit population, created fertile soil for terrorist propaganda, frustrating community's attempt to combat terrorism by itself. Martial Law absolutely futile and senseless unless really meant to punish whole community, ruin its economy and destroy the foundations of the Jewish National Home. "

Ring any bells?

 

[0roo0roo]

more name calling as ussual, a sign of your immaturity.

you talk of racism, yet you talk of the jews being european as if it were of importance. just how many palestinians had immigrated into the area under british protection eh? i guess you wouldn't want to say, but its ok, since they aren't white. racist little matrices.

oh, it rings many, but jews didn't blow up women and children any terrorist attacks were made against soldiers. not the british oppressed the jews to appease the arabs in the first place.

that doesn't ring any bells with you of course, a settlment is akin to blowing up dozens of people in your twisted mind.

its funny how you know about historical jewish rampages during the early days of immigration, yet you forget all the arab massacure and rapes of jews huh?

 

[Matrices]

BrooBroo dismisses extended quotes and citations of facts as "Racism" and "anti-Semitism" with two paltry lines of sarcastic nonsense. Folks, 2+2=4 has become "anti-Semitic" in his mind. Too cowardly to face up to the truth, he restricts himself to "answering" to only the last cited quote.

His main message: If person A occupies, expels, tortures, and bulldozes person B, it is a crime. If person A is a Zionist, then he has a license to plunder away!

Despite the fact that historians, human rights groups, and IDF people themselves admit to murdering Palestinians, this moral eunuch and mental pauper cannot fathom the facts. You kill women and children with F-16s and tanks. You destroy the homes of thousands of families. You have been doing this for decades. Obviously the Palestinians, whom you have now driven to desperation, have retaliated. The slap of the rape victim cannot be demonized to mask the act of the rapist.

No one denies far more Palestinians have been killed and injured than Israelis in this conflict. You rationalize this by concluding all Palestinians are terrorists and therefore unworthy of life.

"Building a settlement" is Orwellian nonsense - those settlements are built on bulldozed and stolen land, you deprive people of their means of existence. They are Nazi-like structures, as only ONE race is allowed to own and build and plunder on them, at the expense of the UNDESIRED race.

History will not look kindly upon this farce.

 

[0roo0roo]

95% male casualties for palestinains to 35% female casualties for israelis. not to mention the wide age range of death for israelis, and mostly young men for palestinians. sounds like random death to me huh? or maybe its because of combatants vs civilian deaths. so don't even bring up numbers.

you make absurd assertions that the tanks and f16s are targeting civilians, any reasonable thinking would find that absurd. if the idf used tanks and f16s as the palestinians used suicide bombings, there would be very few palestinians left, the streets would be flowing with blood.

and bullsh*t, most settlments are built on unoccupied land. you might not like where they are, but most don't require bulldozing anything. you make the absurd assumption that every scrap of land in the area is occupied.

arafat has called the peace process a trojan horse for the palestinians to persue the official charter of the plo, which still does not recognize the state of israel.

history will not look kindly on those who are apologists for terrorism. those who reward terrorism only breed more, and those that use it should never be rewarded for their choice. someone somewhere always has a grievance, real or imagined. you are not unlike bin ladin, who sees all the ills of the west real and imagined, condones acts of horror while zealously pointing to the west as the true evil in the same breath. people like you ignore acts of terrorism as if they are justified and legitimize the grievences in question by their very existence. a niave view and one that only validates their use.

 

[Matrices]

Dude, for the last time, peddling statistics for a Likud website -- "95% male dead" is not fooling anyone. What does that even mean? All males are terrorists? It's the males who go to work and drive and in the streets more often as it is in Palestine.

And this thickheaded Zionist nutcracker keeps inventing phantoms - not facts. You say the peace process what a "trojan horse"? What are you a conspiracy theorist? Some trojan horse, since the end of the "piss process", Palestinians have lost HALF of the land that was supposed to be theirs for the two-state solution.

The Israeli game is politicide - create facts on the ground - ie. settlements and fences - and then in twenty years there will be no LAND for Palestinians to live on.

Fortunately this will fail, because Palestinian growth far outstrips Jewish population. Israel should start atoning for its sins now, before it's racist ethnicity is outnumbered and will not be able to call the shots.

 

[0roo0roo]

indiscrimant violence would average out casualties of all genders and ages, yet it isn't true. are you saying bombs and guns only work in the streets? no palestinian women set foot outside the house right? only young men go into the streets? your being absurd.

and it was arafat that called the peace process a trojan horse, not i.

you talk of facts when it was arafat that turned down peace whenever it was offered, in 93 and on. he just walked away and chose instead his campaign of violence always pretending to be the victim. no attempt at a counter offer by arafat.

you pretend theres a circle of violence when it is not true. whenever the israelis have held back after an attrocity, more violence continues regardless.

you talk of facts, yet you niavely continue to compare the idf to suicide bombers. the fact is the idf lost 30+ soldiers taking a football sized field to apprehend terrorist leaders. they could have easily vaporized the entire area from the air with no cost to themselves, yet instead, they put their troops in harms way. losing 30+ of their men to minimize civilian loss. the palestinians having plenty of advanced warning setup tons of explosives and booby traps. you are blind with your ignorant hate.

it is the palesetinians who when two reservists wandered into palestinian terroritory were lynched, and had the mob joyously and literally bathed their hands in the dead mens blood. never have the israelis bathed their hands in the blood of palestnians as they have. such is their bararism. the mob was organized enough to confiscate all journalists camera film

it is palestinian mothers of suicide bombers who joyously toute the achievments of their dead children to murder other children.

no people that choose to persue political ends through barbaric inhumane means deserve a civilized hearing. and people like you only further corrupt such societies by supporting the radicals that persue such tactics.

 

[mrCide]

oroo, you clearly lose so many debates with regards to your blind support of israel, it's funny that you don't even see it. i look forward to presence's replies, but yours are just nonsense, you argue the same things over and over that's been debunked and go and cite garbage, and argue with nothing in the chamber, i don't even bother to read your replies anymore =\

 

[0roo0roo]

maybe you should look at the posts of those who support your side a little closer. apparently you are blind to the fact that all your critisisms easily apply to them as well. its funny you don't see it.

its funny u'd call my posts nonsense looking at your posts.. garbage indeed.